The State of the English Game

[Éperons]

Sammyspurs and I had a bit of a back and forth on the transfer thread about Spurs' "history" of fielding mostly British sides, while letting the likes of the Woolworths field sides with nary a Brit in the starting XI. My position is that Spurs will continue to create British players by virtue of its academy (which also homegrowns non-British players), but that the PL, as a top, top, triffic league, will persistently attract the best players around the globe, and those players may not always be British.

Either way, like clockwork, this article appeared on ESPN's site, and seeing Green start for perhaps the last time last night reminded me of it:

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/columns/st ... ed?cc=5739

TL;DR: The players who are supposed to be bringing England glory (as well as the youths who should be getting exposure so that they can dethrone the likes of Terry, Lampard, etc.) can't even get into their club sides.

I'm not a fan of England, so I don't particularly care that English internationals can't get minutes in the top English league. But I think this situation is related to the state of affairs that sammyspurs bemoaned (and which also doesn't bother me a bit).

In any case, I wonder if in the future, it won't be "local Tottenham lad" players who get the "he's our boy!" welcome at WHL. It'll be "local British lad" who gets us all bajiggity, shouting "he's our boy!" That's surely the case in sports like baseball, where one gets excited when a player is from within 300 miles of the club!

 

[AberdeenYid]

Tango Lima Delta Romeo.

Just wanted to be first.

 

[Smoked Salmon]

I like cheese.

 

[Blanchflower]

Lionel Messi wasn't even born on the same continent and I'm pretty sure the Barca fans consider him to be one of their own, I don't think him being there has hampered Spanish football much either.

 

[sammyspurs]

Lionel Messi wasn't even born on the same continent and I'm pretty sure the Barca fans consider him to be one of their own, I don't think him being there has hampered Spanish football much either.

If Barca were fielding 9 or 10 Argentinians though, it would hamper Spanish football in the long run. They do however, have 17 Spaniards in a Squad of 25, so your example doesnt really make any sense here.

 

[Éperons]

They do however, have 17 Spaniards in a Squad of 25

Not only that, but, perversely, like Athletic Bilbao, they manage to respect local political desires viz. having their local ethnicity on display (with Bilbao, it's at 100%). That two world-class clubs have such limitations imposed on themselves are the exceptions that prove the rule that one needs to look globally to play world-class.

 

[Blanchflower]

My point was that having players that feel like they belong at a club and the fans feel like the player is one of them has virtually nothing to do with their place of birth.

Virtually none of the players and coaches that have had the biggest impact on shaping the history and direction of the club are from anywhere near Tottenham.

 

[sammyspurs]

I dont know about anyone claiming everyone at the club should be from Tottenham.

 

[Blanchflower]

I dont know about anyone claiming everyone at the club should be from Tottenham.

They didn't and I didn't. My point is still valid though unless you think that Mckay, Jones, Blanchflower, White, Brown, etc harmed English football or Tottenham Hotspur?

Sammyspurs and I had a bit of a back and forth on the transfer thread about Spurs' "history" of fielding mostly British sides, while letting the likes of the Woolworths field sides with nary a Brit in the starting XI.

In any case, I wonder if in the future, it won't be "local Tottenham lad" players who get the "he's our boy!" welcome at WHL. It'll be "local British lad" who gets us all bajiggity, shouting "he's our boy!" That's surely the case in sports like baseball, where one gets excited when a player is from within 300 miles of the club!

 

[sammyspurs]

I dont know about anyone claiming everyone at the club should be from Tottenham.

They didn't and I didn't. My point is still valid though unless you think that Mckay, Jones, Blanchflower, White, Brown, etc harmed English football or Tottenham Hotspur?

WTF are you on about?

I think its important to have British/Irish players at the club, and have said so from day one of this debate. Why would I think those legends harmed English football and Spurs??

I want MORE of them.

Ive never said one single word about players coming from Tottenham. You quoted Eperons.

 

[Éperons]

They didn't and I didn't. My point is still valid though unless you think that Mckay, Jones, Blanchflower, White, Brown, etc harmed English football or Tottenham Hotspur?

My point is very simple, and not related to the main thrust of the argument. As it stands now, there are some players who earn extra esteem (in part) for being local. King, Defoe, Livermore, and Parker to name a few. Gerrard is the contemporary ur-example.

My question was whether it might not be the case that, in the future, that "hometown esteem" is given not to London players but to Brits as a whole.

The history of Spurs is completely immaterial to the topic at hand, which is the increasing scarcity of Brits starting in the PL.

 

[Blanchflower]

And my example was of a foreigner having achieved the same kind of "hometown esteem" elsewhere.

I don't think the place of someones birth has any relevance, it's the individuals affinity with the club that is important - they can in a way become adopted by the fans as one of their own. I think that's always been the case.

For example, if Robbie Keane had never left and declared his boyhood love of Liverpool I think he'd be for loved by the fans than Jermain Defoe ever will.

 

[Éperons]

I don't think the place of someones birth has any relevance

Look, we're in agreement. Obviously players can be loved without being local. My parenthetical point was merely that being local helps make a player more loved. But maybe I'm wrong about that. It's neither a necessary nor sufficient condition to being loved. But it helps.

I personally wouldn't mind it one bit if Spurs put out a starting XI of whom Bale and Walker were the only Brits. But that attitude, as is evidenced by the ESPN article in the OP, might have a punishing effect on Team England (and, obviously, but less acutely, on the other Home Nations).

I can't keep track of who on this forum doesn't give a toss about England and who will return to the fold once JT gets sent to the glue factory. So if you don't care about England, then we're in absolute agreement and there's no argument here. If you care about England, then do you agree with the ESPN column and see an emerging problem for international selection?

 

[ollieXcore]

You can look at the defnintion of "local" too. For example, there are players who could have been born in the Tottenham area, or players born in London, or extra-London born players that came early to Tottenham and developed under them. Which of these scenarios would get the most "loving" as a success in the first team?
As far as playing for the international team there's always the perceived esteem about a top-league team having resources good enough to be selected from the national side, these players earn higher "loving" in my view, as does the value of the top-league team.

Ledley King, one of, if not the, most-loved players of recent times, so much so he has been chosen as the club's representative and ambassador in the local area, was actually born in Bow, a Dawson punt from Upton Park.

 

[Cripps14]

This discussion reminds me of a chapter in the book "Why England Lose" (Also been released under the title of "Soccernomics")

Basically the authors say that British clubs have to pay a premium for British players because the perception is that fans will relate to them more.

On the whole I think this tends to be true, while not necessarily for the likes of Eperones or other foreign fans of our great club (or other clubs).

Blanchflower's argument about Messi is a bit simplistic here I think. Everyone would love a player of Messi's qualities, however I'm sure if there was a Catalan player who was equally as good (and likeable) as Messi, the Barca fans would adore this player more than they adore Messi.

 

[Éperons]

Basically the authors say that British clubs have to pay a premium for British players because the perception is that fans will relate to them more.

I haven't read the book (yet), but the PL limit on non-homegrown talent (17 squad members maximum) also surely has something to do with it. Though Spurs could easily field a 25 man squad with only 14 or so non-homegrown players, it's still something to consider when splashing around in the foreign market while also sending the local lads away on loan; between loans and injuries, Spurs were down to 9 homegrown players last spring.

 

[Park Lane James]

Blanchflower's argument about Messi is a bit simplistic here I think. Everyone would love a player of Messi's qualities, however I'm sure if there was a Catalan player who was equally as good (and likeable) as Messi, the Barca fans would adore this player more than they adore Messi.

Part of the reason Johan Cruyff was so successful at Barcelona was because he understood the area, and realised that a core of Catalan (mixed with Spanish) players with a sprinkling of foreign talent was key to create a dynamic side. He said something like "if a player is from the local area, and has an equal ability to someone from outside - then he should be preferred". Makes sense.

Although this is true, the Barcelona and Bilbao examples are a bit wide of the mark given that those regions are tightly-knit (even with language differences) to an extent where the politics are of a different view from the rest of the country. Compare that with Tottenham, which is part of London as a whole.

I do understand the point, though. I feel it is important to keep a core of British players at the club, due to this deteriorating identity within modern Premier League football clubs. As the OP has said, I would agree that there is a sense of the 'local' area being expanded - it's been going on for a while now IMO.

 

[Flav]

I haven't got any trousers on.

 

[Tucker]

Part of the reason Johan Cruyff was so successful at Barcelona was because he understood the area, and realised that a core of Catalan (mixed with Spanish) players with a sprinkling of foreign talent was key to create a dynamic side. He said something like "if a player is from the local area, and has an equal ability to someone from outside - then he should be preferred". Makes sense.

This is exactly how it should be. It annoys me that we see the squad lists of premier league filled with average foreign players. There are plenty of Average (and talented) British players in the championship and league one. And plenty of shit ones in League 2 and below.

Why should the likes of Wilson Palacios, Robert Huth, (wait can't name the whole stoke squad)..... erm and Jussi Jaskelinanan, be preferred over home grown youngsters who could easily be just as shit as them.

 

[Cripps14]

Part of the reason Johan Cruyff was so successful at Barcelona was because he understood the area, and realised that a core of Catalan (mixed with Spanish) players with a sprinkling of foreign talent was key to create a dynamic side. He said something like "if a player is from the local area, and has an equal ability to someone from outside - then he should be preferred". Makes sense.

This is exactly how it should be. It annoys me that we see the squad lists of premier league filled with average foreign players. There are plenty of Average (and talented) British players in the championship and league one. And plenty of shit ones in League 2 and below.

Why should the likes of Wilson Palacios, Robert Huth, (wait can't name the whole stoke squad)..... erm and Jussi Jaskelinanan, be preferred over home grown youngsters who could easily be just as shit as them.

Because these players have "Premier League Experience"

They have been shit for much longer than these home grown youngsters.