Manager Thomas Frank

[Papafeels]

The thing is you're acting like what we've seen so far is the finished product and the type of football Frank wants us to play long term.

If that does prove to be the case, then you'll be proven right and he'll either be sacked when things get toxic or replaced at the end of the season.

I think there's a very reasonable chance we gradually improve and the numbers get better over the course of the season as players gel, he adjusts the system, injured players return and we make signings. Admittedly that was also the hope many people had under Ange, but the difference is Ange was a pure idealist who would barely adapt as a point of pride. The hope is that Frank can and will adapt.

Glasner and Iraola had absolutely abysmal spells early on in their respective careers at Palace and Bournemouth - miles worse results-wise than Frank. Sometimes you gotta give managers time for things to click.

EDIT: Frank's actually renowned for being a slow starter at clubs - took a while to get going at both Brentford and Brondby - so at least we've got some decent points to show for our shoddy performances.

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There's a slow starts and there's this. This is the worst football I've ever seen. 4 through balls attempted in the league this season, 4. That's a massive tactical flaw that has to be addressed.

You have stats telling us, this is broken, it's getting worse, hold on tight. And then there's this blind optimism with ifs but and maybes. Again, if there were any green shoots, I wouldn't be bothered, but this is just ridiculous, and how so many accept this is crazy.

Glasner and Iraola didn't play the worst football ever seen, they didn't have 100's of millions to spend either. Frank's rookie replacement, who lost their captain, keeper, and virtually all of their goals are clicking into gear, playing better football than us and getting results left, right and center. There is absolutely nothing to suggest things will improve, especially as we're going to the other way.

Unless we see actual, tangible change, our slide down the table will continue and this season will be a goner, then we have to go through another preseason, transfer window, to inevitably sack him and this squad is a Frankenstein's monster of different systems.

And with all due respect to Frank's this is Tottenham, not Brondby or Brentford, the standards and expectations should be much higher.

 

[Phomesy]

Frank is nowhere near that shit, that Ange served up. And its going to take time and patience to deal with mess Ange, Levy, and the rest of the pricks left behind.

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On a more serious level, this stuff won't wash with the current "Frank Outers" and why should it? This whole idea that Frank has to "deal with a mess" is complete bollocks. Or, at least, it's complete bollocks compared to the utter mess the previous manager had to deal with after the clusterfuck ending of the Conte/Stellini/Mason debacle AND losing the best striker in the world.

Frank walked into a club coming off a major European Trophy, a Champions League place, and apart from Dragusin and Kulusevski - a healthy squad that should have been full of confidence heading into a new era (and expecting a much better summer window than Solanke and kids). If injuries to Maddison and Solanke are to be held against the previous manager they have to held against the current manager.

Last season we lost 4 out of our back 5 and our league season collapsed. Most normal supporters supported that manager through that crisis and we were rewarded with the greatest moment in 40 years. Those who jumped off have to live with not enjoying that moment as much as they could have.

The lesson is: don't jump off and behave like a cunt because you might just miss the moment. Like you obviously did.

 

[Papafeels]

You’re a clown and I’m delighted that this thread has exposed you to even more posters.

Suck deez nuts Legohead

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A clown is a noble profession. You sitting at home on the brew, claiming phony DLA and child benefits, looking for months old quavers down the back of the couch, well, not so much. I imagine you also drive a "powered by fairy dust" bumper sticker because you're cool and edgy.

Exposing me, good grief. Me having an opinion different from others is not "being exposed". Sure, I've had to deal with a few lunatics, like yourself, but that's to be expected on the internet. Water off a duck's back, friendo.

Are you going to justify your abuse with anything articulate? I would suspect not as there's a lot of empty air in there, but if you'd like to debate without name calling, I'm happy to.

 

[McCOYS]

If we finish, say, 10th but in the final 2 months of the season it's clear we're really clicking, we put in some strong performances and there's a sense we're growing as a team then I'll be far more content to give him another season

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That good end to the season the club had with Conte, when we beat the goons, went on a good run of performances, took 4th place in the league, the players celebrating the last game of the season in television footage in the changing room, I really thought this is it, next season we'll be actually challenging for the Premier League title like we had under Pochettino, but with the added bonus of Conte getting teams to actually win.

So now I'm hoping Frank, whose won fuck all, apart from getting a team promoted from a lower league, is here, no Kane, no Son, some games struggling to have one shot on target, awful home record , I'm again thinking next season will be the one, this is the man, this is the version of our team that's going to do it?

 

[Papafeels]

So you don't care so much about the league position providing you can see the team is heading statistically in the right direction. In such case you'd be happy to have Frank again next season but you don't see anything to make you think he's capable.

The statistic about the 4 through balls all season so far is mainly because the attacks are usually via the wide players, we're a simple team, we don't have much guile. Since Son left I don't recall seeing a stepover, a nutmeg, any sort of feint, not anything that is going to confuse a defender into opening up some space. We're basic, we're being solid, no fancy stuff, rather than a through ball, we'll blast a shot like Tel and Odobert did successfully against Manchester United last week, there's a fair chance of a deflected shot wrong footing the goalkeeper, trying a clever through ball or something else is just going to be collected by the goalkeeper unless it's perfectly executed.

Maybe that's just the short term plan IDK.

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Not exactly, I want to see improvement on the product on the pitch, backed by statistics which say we're a decent side, even if we're not getting results.
We're at the opposite side of that spectrum right now and it's not improving.

A good tactician shouldn't have one single way of playing. This get it wide to get corners, how sustainable is that really? Are we going to score from a corner every game? Unlikely. His team selections hinder our ability to play through the middle. There's a huge gap between the middle of the pitch between our midfield two and advanced midfielder, which makes playing it to them very tricky, and when they get it, they may as well be on a desolate island.

We can't just be a one trick Pony, basic side. This isn't a team like Burnley that's come up and can only survive if they play one way. The players must absolutely loathe playing in this as well. If we were hard to beat, not just lucky opponents aren't scoring, but genuinely hard to beat, that'd be fine, but we're just going through the motions as a team. I don't see anything other than a complete humiliation at the weekend because Woolwich have the players that are going to counter our set piece heavy play and will probably score some of their own. Another inept, flat performance at the weekend shouldn't be accepted.

 

[Timberwolf]

There's a slow starts and there's this. This is the worst football I've ever seen. 4 through balls attempted in the league this season, 4. That's a massive tactical flaw that has to be addressed.

You have stats telling us, this is broken, it's getting worse, hold on tight. And then there's this blind optimism with ifs but and maybes. Again, if there were any green shoots, I wouldn't be bothered, but this is just ridiculous, and how so many accept this is crazy.

Glasner and Iraola didn't play the worst football ever seen, they didn't have 100's of millions to spend either. Frank's rookie replacement, who lost their captain, keeper, and virtually all of their goals are clicking into gear, playing better football than us and getting results left, right and center. There is absolutely nothing to suggest things will improve, especially as we're going to the other way.

Unless we see actual, tangible change, our slide down the table will continue and this season will be a goner, then we have to go through another preseason, transfer window, to inevitably sack him and this squad is a Frankenstein's monster of different systems.

And with all due respect to Frank's this is Tottenham, not Brondby or Brentford, the standards and expectations should be much higher.

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Completely agree with there being tactical issues that need addressing and the through-ball stats are a terrible indictment. But we did play much better against, an admittedly poor, Copenhagen, and on the balance of play I think we were better than United - particularly in the second half (although both teams were unimpressive).

There are certainly times in the past few years we've been worse. Under Stellini and in Ange's second season we were utterly shambolic and embarrassing at times. Under Frank we're dysfunctional and ugly but we don't look like a team that's completely broken. We just look like we've got a system that isn't functioning and needs adjusting.

As I said, if we keep playing like we did against Chelsea, Bodo and Bournemouth than yes, you'll be proven right, but I think you're catastrophising. A couple of performances have been shockingly bad but I don't feel like this is some 'end of days' level footballing car-crash we're witnessing where it's all falling apart and the manager's lost the players. I think there's a solid chance he pulls it round and giving him the boot now (for who btw? you never seem to discuss who we'd actually replace him with) will do us far more harm than good for reasons articulated throughout this thread.

 

[Timberwolf]

That good end to the season the club had with Conte, when we beat the goons, went on a good run of performances, took 4th place in the league, the players celebrating the last game of the season in television footage in the changing room, I really thought this is it, next season we'll be actually challenging for the Premier League title like we had under Pochettino, but with the added bonus of Conte getting teams to actually win.

So now I'm hoping Frank, whose won fuck all, apart from getting a team promoted from a lower league, is here, no Kane, no Son, some games struggling to have one shot on target, awful home record , I'm again thinking next season will be the one, this is the man, this is the version of our team that's going to do it?

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I think you could easily say the same about Arteta early on at Woolwich, though. No proven track record, pretty bang average first 18 months despite 1 good cup run, uninspiring football. Lost a bunch of their best attacking players and had to rebuild. They were patient, backed him and have steadily improved year after year.

He actually had worse attacking stats than Frank in his early days. For all our shitty build-up we are actually getting output and are 4th top scorers in the league or something (although I think that's unsustainable).

Meanwhile a 'winner' like Conte is basically shooting for the moon. You gotta back the guy and go all-in for 18 months - 2 years and accept the consequences. We didn't give him the players he wanted so never saw his true potential. We're clearly not looking for a 'win now' type of guy and want to build a long term project so we won't be going to exciting hot-headed coaches any time soon I don't think.

Personally, I don't think Frank will lead us to glory and take to where we want to be long term. But I do think he could be a safe pair of hands to help us gradually improve and lay strong foundations for a couple of years before handing to someone better. And if he has a shit season we can bin him off and start again next summer rather than creating a massive shit-storm midseason while he's barely had any time to find his feet, which is what some posters seem to want.

 

[Papafeels]

Completely agree with there being tactical issues that need addressing and the through-ball stats are a terrible indictment. But we did play much better against, an admittedly poor, Copenhagen, and on the balance of play I think we were better than United - particularly in the second half (although both teams were unimpressive).

There are certainly times in the past few years we've been worse. Under Stellini and in Ange's second season we were utterly shambolic and embarrassing at times. Under Frank we're dysfunctional and ugly but we don't look like a team that's completely broken. We just look like we've got a system that isn't functioning and needs adjusting.

As I said, if we keep playing like we did against Chelsea, Bodo and Bournemouth than yes, you'll be proven right, but I think you're catastrophising a bit. A couple of performances have been shockingly bad but I don't feel like this is some 'end of days' level footballing car-crash we're witnessing where it's all falling apart and the manager's lost the players. I think there's a solid chance he pulls it round and giving him the boot now (for who btw? you never seem to discuss the actual replacement) will do us far more harm than good for reasons articulated throughout this thread.

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It's not end of days stuff at all. People act like I'm losing my mind over this. It's just football, there are much more important things in life to worry about, 11 men kicking a ball isn't going to depress me. When I watch Spurs I want to be entertained, not expecting prime Barca as that other, for want of a better word, gentleman, suggested, there's a big difference between bottom half of the north Irish premier league style football and prime Barca, somewhere in the middle would be fantastic.

I've been saying this since the Villarreal game, which was the first eye opener for me and the biggest indication this hasn't been working. That was mid September like. We've got absolutely no better, results are starting to match performances now and these limp displays show no sign of stopping. Look at chances conceded, chances created, XG, XGA, and we're damn near the bottom of the table in all of them. Pressing the ball, lower end, advancing the ball to create chances, near the bottom too.

A replacement, well that's not my job, they have their little 10 point plan they use (which should get ripped up if they sack Frank) which no one here is privy to. I have names I'd like of course, Iraola, Glasner, Hoeness at Stuttgart who I think would be an excellent fit. But I fail to see anyone, even with the current players we have coming in and be so negative.

We start putting together good performances, not the absolute bare minimum, we go towards the higher end of the table in those areas statistically, and I'll happily say he's turned it around. I have no problem with TF, I just think it's a mutually bad fit on the evidence so far.

Anyways, been good to talk to someone reasonable!

 

[Spaniel]

I think you could easily say the same about Arteta early on at Woolwich, though. No proven track record, pretty bang average first 18 months despite 1 good cup run, uninspiring football. Lost a bunch of their best attacking players and had to rebuild. They were patient, backed him and have steadily improved year after year.

He actually had worse attacking stats than Frank in his early days. For all our shitty build-up we are actually getting output and are 4th top scorers in the league or something (although I think that's unsustainable).

Meanwhile a 'winner' like Conte is basically shooting for the moon. You gotta back the guy and go all-in for 18 months - 2 years and accept the consequences. We didn't give him the players he wanted so never saw his true potential. We're clearly not looking for a 'win now' type of guy and want to build a long term project so we won't be going to exciting hot-headed coaches any time soon I don't think.

Personally, I don't think Frank will lead us to glory and take to where we want to be long term. But I do think he could be a safe pair of hands to help us gradually improve and lay strong foundations for a couple of years before handing to someone better.

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I'll settle for a decent season to give me hope....

 

[Timberwolf]

It's not end of days stuff at all. People act like I'm losing my mind over this. It's just football, there are much more important things in life to worry about, 11 men kicking a ball isn't going to depress me. When I watch Spurs I want to be entertained, not expecting prime Barca as that other, for want of a better word, gentleman, suggested, there's a big difference between bottom half of the north Irish premier league style football and prime Barca, somewhere in the middle would be fantastic.

I've been saying this since the Villarreal game, which was the first eye opener for me and the biggest indication this hasn't been working. That was mid September like. We've got absolutely no better, results are starting to match performances now and these limp displays show no sign of stopping. Look at chances conceded, chances created, XG, XGA, and we're damn near the bottom of the table in all of them. Pressing the ball, lower end, advancing the ball to create chances, near the bottom too.

A replacement, well that's not my job, they have their little 10 point plan they use (which should get ripped up if they sack Frank) which no one here is privy to. I have names I'd like of course, Iraola, Glasner, Hoeness at Stuttgart who I think would be an excellent fit. But I fail to see anyone, even with the current players we have coming in and be so negative.

We start putting together good performances, not the absolute bare minimum, we go towards the higher end of the table in those areas statistically, and I'll happily say he's turned it around. I have no problem with TF, I just think it's a mutually bad fit on the evidence so far.

Anyways, been good to talk to someone reasonable!

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Thing is, 2 of those guys almost certainly ain't joining mid-season and bringing in Hoeness mid-season could mean hanging him out to dry as he'd have no pre-season + high expectations in the toughest league in the world.

I just think regardless of what we think of Frank, the only sensible approach is to give him the season and hope for the best, even if it's a shite watch.

 

[GinolasLeftFoot]

On a more serious level, this stuff won't wash with the current "Frank Outers" and why should it? This whole idea that Frank has to "deal with a mess" is complete bollocks. Or, at least, it's complete bollocks compared to the utter mess the previous manager had to deal with after the clusterfuck ending of the Conte/Stellini/Mason debacle AND losing the best striker in the world.

Frank walked into a club coming off a major European Trophy, a Champions League place, and apart from Dragusin and Kulusevski - a healthy squad that should have been full of confidence heading into a new era (and expecting a much better summer window than Solanke and kids). If injuries to Maddison and Solanke are to be held against the previous manager they have to held against the current manager.

Last season we lost 4 out of our back 5 and our league season collapsed. Most normal supporters supported that manager through that crisis and we were rewarded with the greatest moment in 40 years. Those who jumped off have to live with not enjoying that moment as much as they could have.

The lesson is: don't jump off and behave like a cunt because you might just miss the moment. Like you obviously did.

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Revisionism.

Wigan won the FA cup, got relegated, cups mean nothing, the league is the true indicator.

Last season, we also had Djed and Reg that could have been rotated with Porro and Udogie, but he just ran these two in to the ground, with Udogie finally breaking, forcing Ange to play Djed.

He had youngsters that scored and set up goals, and were never seen again. He loaned out Veliz, Parrot, then ran Solanke into the ground. When needs must, you use what you have at your disposal, he didn't.

He was stubborn and way out of his depth. That is why people wanted him gone. He was also his own worst enemy.

 

[Papafeels]

Thing is, 2 of those guys almost certainly ain't joining mid-season and bringing in Hoeness mid-season could mean hanging him out to dry as he'd have no pre-season + high expectations in the toughest league in the world.

I just think regardless of what we think of Frank, the only sensible approach is to give him the season and hope for the best, even if it's a shite watch.

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I agree with that, but I actually think with our squad Hoeness would be a pretty good fit actually. I don't foresee a universe that he comes in and things get worse. He plays football more akin to a combination of Frank and Ange, which is where we should be. There's fundamentals there from the two seasons before that they'll click with, but they also won't be defending with one man, gung ho. He likes to attack wide, press from the back, recycle the ball quickly. To me, if you can't get the other two, which I agree, midseason is probably not realistic unless they're promised mega riches.

If we can tick, improve a little and make it to the end of the season with Frank, and we're not bottom half, sure, ride it out. I can't see us making it past this tough run, managing to scramble enough in January, to then go into our February schedule, which, if you've not had a look yet, is not pretty.

 

[GinolasLeftFoot]

Ok.

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Try to have a sensible debate and you resort revisionism and and petty BS like this.

Just another brainless fuck knuckle, who's been snorting too much crack.

Enjoy your brain rotted BS.

 

[McCOYS]

I think you could easily say the same about Arteta early on at Woolwich, though. No proven track record, pretty bang average first 18 months despite 1 good cup run, uninspiring football. Lost a bunch of their best attacking players and had to rebuild. They were patient, backed him and have steadily improved year after year.

He actually had worse attacking stats than Frank in his early days. For all our shitty build-up we are actually getting output and are 4th top scorers in the league or something (although I think that's unsustainable).

Meanwhile a 'winner' like Conte is basically shooting for the moon. You gotta back the guy and go all-in for 18 months - 2 years and accept the consequences. We didn't give him the players he wanted so never saw his true potential. We're clearly not looking for a 'win now' type of guy and want to build a long term project so we won't be going to exciting hot-headed coaches any time soon I don't think.

Personally, I don't think Frank will lead us to glory and take to where we want to be long term. But I do think he could be a safe pair of hands to help us gradually improve and lay strong foundations for a couple of years before handing to someone better. And if he has a shit season we can bin him off and start again next summer rather than creating a massive shit-storm midseason while he's barely had any time to find his feet, which is what some posters seem to want.

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I'm not expecting nor do I want Frank sacked this season, there's not really any reason for me to want that. I hope he does well, he might surprise us all. He just seems like the sort of bloke I'd expect to see on a Carry-On film.

Spoiler

 

[Timberwolf]

I agree with that, but I actually think with our squad Hoeness would be a pretty good fit actually. I don't foresee a universe that he comes in and things get worse. He plays football more akin to a combination of Frank and Ange, which is where we should be. There's fundamentals there from the two seasons before that they'll click with, but they also won't be defending with one man, gung ho. He likes to attack wide, press from the back, recycle the ball quickly. To me, if you can't get the other two, which I agree, midseason is probably not realistic unless they're promised mega riches.

If we can tick, improve a little and make it to the end of the season with Frank, and we're not bottom half, sure, ride it out. I can't see us making it past this tough run, managing to scramble enough in January, to then go into our February schedule, which, if you've not had a look yet, is not pretty.

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Sounds like Hoeness would be a good fit.

I really like both Glasner and Iraola but I think both would also have issues at Spurs tbh. Iraola has such a unique playing style and demands hard pressing. I could see him having issues with 2 games per week - a bit like Ange. Would be a fun ride and we'd play some good stuff but not without its pitfalls.

Glasner is clearly an exceptional manager but his style also isn't really dominant in the way Spurs fans might demand. Palace are 2nd bottom for possession this season and were 4th bottom last season. That's fine when you're Frankfurt or Palace, but I can see Spurs fans getting pissed off if we're more of a direct, reactive team, even if we're effective at it. Even Frank's got us 6th in the league for possession, although a lot of that is sterile passing around the back.

 

[harry7]

I'm not sure what firing a coach really achieves. As long has Frank has the support of the squad - he must stay. If Spurs aren't attacking enough - hire some attacking assistants. If our keeper can't kick a ball, hire a goalkeeping coach. Spurs never have any trust in their coaches, and never back them.

For the most part, all of the Spurs coaches from Harry onwards have repeatedly said that the club's hierarchy is a barrier to success.

The clubs was handed on a silver platter the easiest Premier League season since its inception in 15/16. They scored the most goals, had the best defence - and managed to finish 3rd, 11 points behind Leicester. After early exists from all cup competitions, they won only 4 of their last 10 fixtures. A complete shit show.

The only coach that went on to win something did so by sticking 2 fingers up to the board and doing things his way. If you don't give me the squad, I can't compete in all comps. - he was right, got the silverware and they fired him for it.

 

[Brent]

Football these days seem to be all about stats. I'm not big on stat, but that through ball stats is horrendous - only two for the whole season!

Then, in trying to understand the stat, I came across this: Through-balls in the Premier League

Interesting thing is through-balls reached it's peak more than a decade ago! During that time ManCity attempted the most through-balls: 321 in total, of which 75 were successful, 44 led to a shot on goal and 13 goals were scored!

The same season, 2011/2012 as it were, the cunts up the road attempted 293 through-balls, 87 were sussesfull, 53 led to shots and only 24 goals were scored!

So how crucial is it to coach through-balls?

Needles to say, I 'm still not big on stats

 

[Timberwolf]

On a more serious level, this stuff won't wash with the current "Frank Outers" and why should it? This whole idea that Frank has to "deal with a mess" is complete bollocks. Or, at least, it's complete bollocks compared to the utter mess the previous manager had to deal with after the clusterfuck ending of the Conte/Stellini/Mason debacle AND losing the best striker in the world.

Frank walked into a club coming off a major European Trophy, a Champions League place, and apart from Dragusin and Kulusevski - a healthy squad that should have been full of confidence heading into a new era (and expecting a much better summer window than Solanke and kids). If injuries to Maddison and Solanke are to be held against the previous manager they have to held against the current manager.

Last season we lost 4 out of our back 5 and our league season collapsed. Most normal supporters supported that manager through that crisis and we were rewarded with the greatest moment in 40 years. Those who jumped off have to live with not enjoying that moment as much as they could have.

The lesson is: don't jump off and behave like a cunt because you might just miss the moment. Like you obviously did.

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I think this is a very rose-tinted take. And in going so anti-Frank and pro-Ange you're basically just as bad as the people who are fully pro-Frank and anti-Ange.

Sure, we won the Europa, but we'd had one of the worst league seasons in the history of the club. Winning Europa massively improved morale, but in footballing terms it was still a squad that had lost 22 league games. The hangover from our league form didn't instantly evaporate when we won the cup.

I also think that some of our current injury issues are at least partially down to Ange's approach. Apparently he was knowingly playing players who were in the red-zone and clearly rushed players back from injury on more than one occasion. The head of sports science at Celtic said in an interview that Ange gambled on players fitness to get them back early for crucial games and it resulted in long-term reinjury, which is exactly what happened with Romero, Van de Ven and Odobert.

I obviously have no proof but I wouldn't be remotely surprised if the Maddison and Solanke injuries were, in part, the long term result of Ange's pretty old school approach to sports science and fitness. And Kulu was absolutely flogged in the first 2/3rds of last season so him getting some sort of long term injury was hardly a surprise. If you push a squad beyond its physical limits for 2 years there will be residual effects longer term and I think that's part of the reason we're having so many injuries yet again (although not all are Ange's fault of course).

For the sake of balance, I do think Frank's benefitted from signings and backing that Ange could've really used. Kudus and Xavi would've been a perfect players for Ange and never getting him an established 1v1 winger was braindead on the part of Levy and the recruitment team.

 

[Timberwolf]

Football these days seem to be all about stats. I'm not big on stat, but that through ball stats is horrendous - only two for the whole season!

Then, in trying to understand the stat, I came across this: Through-balls in the Premier League

Interesting thing is through-balls reached it's peak more than a decade ago! During that time ManCity attempted the most through-balls: 321 in total, of which 75 were successful, 44 led to a shot on goal and 13 goals were scored!

The same season, 2011/2012 as it were, the cunts up the road attempted 293 through-balls, 87 were sussesfull, 53 led to shots and only 24 goals were scored!

So how crucial is it to coach through-balls?

Needles to say, I 'm still not big on stats

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I am a bit curious to see how they measure them exactly. Woolwich have almost half as many as they had in the entirely of last season despite scoring very few open play goals and largely coming up against teams sitting very deep.

Our grand total of 4 is obviously shockingly bad however you spin it, but I'd like to see exactly what Woolwich's 40 have looked like. Something tells me they aren't all the incisive passes to a striker that we're imagining, although I could be wrong.

 

[TottsAmazeballs]

Can you add ‘get a grip’ to the list of options, please?