• The Fighting Cock is a forum for fans of Tottenham Hotspur Football Club. Here you can discuss Spurs latest matches, our squad, tactics and any transfer news surrounding the club. Registration gives you access to all our forums (including 'Off Topic' discussion) and removes most of the adverts (you can remove them all via an account upgrade). You're here now, you might as well...

    Get involved!

Manager Thomas Frank

Latest Spurs videos from Sky Sports

Are you Frank Out or In?


  • Total voters
    623
The xG and xGA lovefest is weird.

It is a singular stat. It's not useless but its highly volatile. There are places like OPTA that are running their entire forecast based off xG, as though it determines the outcomes for the games instead of actual goals and assists. People think whoever has a higher xG deserves to win every game. It's ridiculous.

I guess there are some stats nerds who think Higher xG "deserves" to win games, but most people just accept it's a very good metric for showing who "will" win more games over the course of a season.

Having said that, Monaco 💯 "deserved" to win their game against us but came up against an elite keeper on his day (and some underperforming finishing by some of their players). Individual games have individual outcomes but over the long term would you rather us facing that kind of xG differential? Of course not.

To bring this back to Frank - I think he's outperforming our xG stats by being a good coach and I'm certain he wants to equalise our xG differential asap - and will do once he has some of his better forwards back. 🤷‍♂️
 
thinktank thinktank
Here you go thinky, treat for you:


Frank’s Spurs don’t always thrill – so maybe they’re at the cutting edge​


Summarise

Jack Pitt-Brooke
It is difficult, when you look at the Premier League table, to argue with Thomas Frank’s record at Tottenham Hotspur so far.

Nine games into the new season, they sit in third place. Only Woolwich, who are top, have won more games than Spurs. No team has scored more goals than Tottenham (they have 17, joint with Chelsea and Manchester City). Only Woolwich (three) have conceded fewer than Frank’s side (seven).

Even if you think it is too early to glean clear lessons from the table, the evidence of those nine games, the first almost-quarter of the league season, is promising. Even more so when you place it in the context of Frank’s time at Spurs so far.

Frank took over a team who had just had one of the most unusual seasons in modern club history, winning the Europa League while also losing 22 league games and finishing 17th. He has had to repair the ship while navigating through Premier League and Champions League fixtures. He has had to do this with a fairly patchy squad, with injuries in key positions. He has not been able to give a minute to Dejan Kulusevski or James Maddison — Spurs’ two leading creative midfielders — so far. Dominic Solanke, the first-choice centre-forward, has not started a game yet. There should still be a lot of growth to come.

And yet those three glass-half-full paragraphs do not in fact tell the whole story of Frank’s tenure so far. There have arguably been as many bad performances as good ones. In Europe, Spurs were fortunate to scrape draws at Bodo/Glimt and Monaco, and could easily have lost both games by a distance. Their home league games have been miserable since the Burnley win on opening day. Without Joao Palhinha’s late equaliser against Wolves, they would have lost their last three straight home league games.

GettyImages-2241703924-scaled.jpg

Tottenham’s home form has been cause for concern among fansJohn Walton/Getty Images
Football is not just about numbers and outcomes. Fans want to enjoy the process too. This is true everywhere, but especially at Spurs. This is a club that invested tens of millions of pounds in big-name managers in recent years — first Jose Mourinho, then Antonio Conte — only to realise that the style of play did not fit. There are aesthetic expectations that have to be met.

Every fan is entitled to their own conception of ‘good’ football, but most of those conceptions will share some similar ideas. That their team should be proactive, dominate the ball, play in the opposition half, take risks, and eventually triumph through their own skill, bravery and co-ordination. These are eternal principles, but as English football has grown more technical and possession-oriented in the last 10 years, they have felt increasingly hegemonic.

This is why watching Frank’s Spurs at times has felt jarring. No football fan is fully free from cultural conditioning. Our eyes have adjusted to what we have watched for the last few years. And through those lenses, they do not look good.

Stay in the know by selecting your interests on The Athletic:
Tottenham rarely move the ball through the middle of the pitch, preferring the stability of Rodrigo Bentancur and Palhinha sitting there together. They struggle to pick through a settled opposition defence. They do not overwhelm teams with relentless pressure. Only Aston Villa, Sunderland, West Ham United and Burnley, according to Opta, have had fewer shots than Spurs this season. They do not squeeze the opposition to death in their own half. Only Crystal Palace, Fulham and Burnley have made fewer high turnovers than Spurs. If you drew up a list of how you would expect a dominant team to play, Tottenham would not tick many of the boxes.

Sunday’s 3-0 win at Everton was a case in point. Everton had more possession and more shots. Tottenham spent long spells defending their own box, Kevin Danso endlessly heading the ball away. Guglielmo Vicario had to make two brilliant saves when the game was in the balance. But Spurs were clinical when it mattered. Micky van de Ven twice headed in from corners, and Pape Matar Sarr finished off a counter-attack in the final minutes.

If it was a one-off, some people might have called it lucky. But there is a pattern to these away wins now. Spurs did roughly the same thing to Manchester City in August, West Ham in September and to Leeds United earlier this month. It’s who they are now.

GettyImages-2243441512-scaled.jpg

Micky van de Ven nods in Tottenham’s second at EvertonVisionhaus/Getty Images
It is not hard to spot the change in style and emphasis at Tottenham this season. Away from proactive expansive possession, full-backs attacking through the middle, risk-taking on the ball. Towards stability in the middle of the pitch, Bentancur and Palhinha, maintaining shape in possession and maximising set pieces.

But what is true of Tottenham is true of the league at large. Look at Woolwich, who have gone from playing open possession football to being the best defensive team and best set-piece team in the world. Even City themselves have stepped back from the pure possession game, replacing Ederson with Gianluigi Donnarumma, effectively turning the clock back 10 years in the process. Their game is now about getting the ball to their physically dominant No 9 as quickly and as often as possible. Everywhere you look, teams are going direct, focusing on set pieces, teaching their players how to throw the ball long again. The game has changed faster than anyone could have imagined, and in the opposite direction.

And in this brave new world, this Dychenaissance, who better to manage Tottenham than Thomas Frank? His coaching has always been clear-eyed and strategic about pursuing every advantage for his team. At Brentford, some of his football looked like a throwback in an era of endless possession. But he followed his own path and pursued the intimations in a changing game. And right now, in the era when set pieces are becoming the game itself, his approach is at the cutting edge. And if this is what modern football is, Spurs might as well be good at it.

“Every manager and club wants to compete and it is about finding the small margins,” Frank said in his press conference on Monday, ahead of Wednesday’s League Cup tie at Newcastle. “I think the success that we had at Brentford was maybe not as fancy because we were a smaller club, but also Woolwich picked up (the importance of set pieces). Liverpool two years ago were extremely good at it too. So top clubs picked it up and then go, ‘Oh, you probably need to do this if you want to be able to compete or raise the bar to be even better.’

Tottenham have always needed a manager who is ahead of the tactical curve. They do not have enough money or enough originality to compete in any other way. They had that in Mauricio Pochettino, whose energetic pressing football gave Spurs an edge, before Jurgen Klopp or Guardiola even arrived in English football. But they appointed Mourinho and Conte too late, and could not even give them all the tools to compete anyway. Postecoglou’s expansive possession felt like it might have been the future, but football moved in a different direction — towards the minimalistic efficiency of the game Frank had been honing in Brentford.

Perhaps this is just what good football is now. And we all need to adjust our eyes.
 
Spurs now have the most injuries in the Prem. VDV, Porro, Paulinha, Bentancur playing almost every minute, it won't be long b4 they go down.

No backup full back, no backup CBs.

Familiar story. Same old Spurs.

We're playing one of them now, you fool... The other three (!!!!!) are injured.

How many CBs do you expect us to have in the squad, FFS!?!



Meanwhile; if JP & Benta are playing "every" minute, it's down to the manager choosing not to play the 3/4 others we have to play those positions.
 
We're playing one of them now, you fool... The other three (!!!!!) are injured.

How many CBs do you expect us to have in the squad, FFS!?!



Meanwhile; if JP & Benta are playing "every" minute, it's down to the manager choosing not to play the 3/4 others we have to play those positions.

A "proper" club would ignore the squad registration rules and have even more first team players

:davieshmm:
 
I wouldn't be grudge Frank if he changed all 11 and players, playing a lot of the youth and those that rarely start.

All, I want for this season is to not finish 17th and lose 22 games.

Then you shouldn't begrudge Frank a tilt at a cup with such lowly hopes......?


We're 9 games into the season... We're not teetering on a relegation battle.
 
Then you shouldn't begrudge Frank a tilt at a cup with such lowly hopes......?


We're 9 games into the season... We're not teetering on a relegation battle.
I don't be grudge him at all if he wants to go for it, I wouldn't be grudge if he chose either option tbh.

Where have I said that I would be grudge him if he wanted to win the cup?

I have said I understand why he would throw the given our circumstances.

So why ask me this question?
 
I don't be grudge him at all if he wants to go for it, I wouldn't be grudge if he chose either option tbh.

Where have I said that I would be grudge if he wanted to win the cup?

I have said I understand why he would throw the given our circumstances.

So why ask me this question?

Let me re-phrase for you then.....

Why would you prefer him to "throw" the cup; considering such a low bar for the league?

Hatred for Chavs and not wanting to lose to them I get; but if the concerns are purely ultra-pragmatic (i.e. not finishing 17th) then we can afford to ricsk dropping points on Saturday.
 
Let me re-phrase for you then.....

Why would you prefer him to "throw" the cup; considering such a low bar for the league?

Hatred for Chavs and not wanting to lose to them I get; but if the concerns are purely ultra-pragmatic (i.e. not finishing 17th) then we can afford to ricsk dropping points on Saturday.
I just don't think the squad can cope, we can't rotate properly, Djed, Porro, VdV, and others are having to play every game, and the last thing we need is more injuries.

It would also provide a good opportunity to blood some of the youngsters.

There are no right or wrong options for Frank, just what he thinks is best.

And whatever happens, he'll still have ma backing.
 
I just don't think the squad can cope, we can't rotate properly, Djed, Porro, VdV, and others are having to play every game, and the last thing we need is more injuries.

It would also provide a good opportunity to blood some of the youngsters.

There are no right or wrong options for Frank, just what he thinks is best.

And whatever happens, he'll still have ma backing.
Yeah this is it.

We can't just play our strongest 11 every game or we'll start breaking players like Kudus and VdV. Equally players like Gray and Tel need the minutes to develop cos they're not getting many in the league. There aren't too many chances to rest certain players and this is one of them.

People like to shit on our squad, but compared to previous years the overall level of depth isn't bad at all. We're bringing in players like Sarr, Bergvall, Gray, Odobert, Tel, Johnson - players that have all featured in league wins. It's not like we're bringing in total dross. And that's the rotation quality with 8 injuries (5/6 first-teamers) that would leave most other teams in the league decimated.

Highly doubt Frank brings in proper kids for a fixture like Newcastle away. Doesn't seem like his style.
 
I just don't think the squad can cope, we can't rotate properly, Djed, Porro, VdV, and others are having to play every game, and the last thing we need is more injuries.

It would also provide a good opportunity to blood some of the youngsters.

There are no right or wrong options for Frank, just what he thinks is best.

And whatever happens, he'll still have ma backing.

I'm not of the opinion that chucking kids into a "thrown" game (or even just an incoherent mass-rotation) does them any particular favour anyway............. Playing 2 x youth FBs and 1 x youth CB away to a decent team like Newcastle isn't a platform to learn; it's just chucking them into the meat-grinder.

To your observation; those positions that need rotation most we simply don't have anyone viable to do so in the in the short-term.
 
I'm not of the opinion that chucking kids into a "thrown" game (or even just an incoherent mass-rotation) does them any particular favour anyway............. Playing 2 x youth FBs and 1 x youth CB away to a decent team like Newcastle isn't a platform to learn; it's just chucking them into the meat-grinder.

To your observation; those positions that need rotation most we simply don't have anyone viable to do so in the in the short-term.
Got no choice if needs must.

One of the things I hated so much about Ange last season was not using Djed and Reg. Not registered for Europe people cried (Twitter) but what was stop him from playing them in the league giving Porro and Udogie the rest they needed, eventually Udogie broke.

We can't just run players into the ground, We need to survive till January for reinforcements, not be completely broken by January.

I would rather use the youngsters in one game, get bunch of injuries, lise the game the be stuck with the youngsters for an extended period of time.

Frank has done amazing to get us where we are, under the circumstances.

We have a very tough run of games coming up, I am just not sure it's worth the gamble.

Levy has left in a fucked position again.
 
Got no choice if needs must.

One of the things I hated so much about Ange last season was not using Djed and Reg. Not registered for Europe people cried (Twitter) but what was stop him from playing them in the league giving Porro and Udogie the rest they needed, eventually Udogie broke.

We can't just run players into the ground, We need to survive till January for reinforcements, not be completely broken by January.

I would rather use the youngsters in one game, get bunch of injuries, lise the game the be stuck with the youngsters for an extended period of time.

Frank has done amazing to get us where we are, under the circumstances.

We have a very tough run of games coming up, I am just not sure it's worth the gamble.

Levy has left in a fucked position again.

Aside from a lack of LB2; it's not a Levy issue.
 
Yeah this is it.

We can't just play our strongest 11 every game or we'll start breaking players like Kudus and VdV. Equally players like Gray and Tel need the minutes to develop cos they're not getting many in the league. There aren't too many chances to rest certain players and this is one of them.

People like to shit on our squad, but compared to previous years the overall level of depth isn't bad at all. We're bringing in players like Sarr, Bergvall, Gray, Odobert, Tel, Johnson - players that have all featured in league wins. It's not like we're bringing in total dross. And that's the rotation quality with 8 injuries (5/6 first-teamers) that would leave most other teams in the league decimated.

Highly doubt Frank brings in proper kids for a fixture like Newcastle away. Doesn't seem like his style.
Our squad on the left is in a terrible state.

We got 7 RCB, but only 1 LCB, VdV, zero cover for him, and the same for Udogie, Davies should have left the club years ago.

And their is far to much mediocrity at the club.
 
We have midfield and winger/forward rotation options. If they’re good enough is a different matter.

Defensively it’s different, especially at FB they get through a huge amount of work. Djed, Pedro and Udogie have to play every game between them until January. Doubt there are any other CL teams with 3 senior FB/WB in their team in total. Not even a viable youngster behind them to fill in.
 
Aside from a lack of LB2; it's not a Levy issue.
It is a levy issue.

Everyone with more than a cabbage for a brain could see we needed a LCB, LB, and LW, since Son was Leaving.

It should never have got to this point in the first place.

Yet here we are with 2x RB, 7x RCB, 1x LCB and 1xLB

That proper professional squad management right there.

That doesn't include a crocked Davies, who is not good enough, and sold asap, despite being a loyal servant to the club
 
Our squad on the left is in a terrible state.

We got 7 RCB, but only 1 LCB, VdV, zero cover for him, and the same for Udogie, Davies should have left the club years ago.

And their is far to much mediocrity at the club.
Yes Davies should be back at Swansea (for the past few years). Some right footed players prefer playing at LCB it isn’t the end of the world. Putting grey in at LB is way worse for me. Yes the lad can fill in across the back and do a “job” but it’s not helping his development, should be out on loan playing CM every week.
 
It is a levy issue.

Everyone with more than a cabbage for a brain could see we needed a LCB, LB, and LW, since Son was Leaving.

It should never have got to this point in the first place.

We have 6 CBs in the squad FFS! .......If 4 (!!!!!!!!) of them weren't already injured we could rotate without dumping kids into the meat-grinder or a "thrown" cup-tie.

Pretending we don't have any players available to play LW in a "thrown" fixture is bogus too.... We have a bunch of LWs... The problem is no outright #1. Throwing some kid to the wolves is ok (in your book); but we can't try and usher (eg) Tel along by playing him there in a cup tie (that you're indifferent to anyway).... "Cos Levy"?

That logic is contorted as hell!


We have a big squad....... Levy isn't the all-purpose, boogie-man rent-a-villain.
 
Yes Davies should be back at Swansea (for the past few years). Some right footed players prefer playing at LCB it isn’t the end of the world. Putting grey in at LB is way worse for me. Yes the lad can fill in across the back and do a “job” but it’s not helping his development, should be out on loan playing CM every week.
The biggest issue, was that under Levy, there was not a single philosophy at the club.

This Spurs, this the way we play, that ran through the club from top to bottom, from youth to senior.

Levy just flip flopped from thing to the next, like a rudderless boat in a storm.

And the Frankenstein squad, is testimony to that chaos and constant lack of direction.

Any squad of any worth, has a min of two players for every position.

I don't think we had once under Levy, if we did the drop off was huge, or for short periods of time.

It was only a few seasons ago, we had to put 4 goal keepers on the Europe list as we was short of players...

It's insane.
 
thinktank thinktank
Here you go thinky, treat for you:


Frank’s Spurs don’t always thrill – so maybe they’re at the cutting edge​


Summarise

Jack Pitt-Brooke
It is difficult, when you look at the Premier League table, to argue with Thomas Frank’s record at Tottenham Hotspur so far.

Nine games into the new season, they sit in third place. Only Woolwich, who are top, have won more games than Spurs. No team has scored more goals than Tottenham (they have 17, joint with Chelsea and Manchester City). Only Woolwich (three) have conceded fewer than Frank’s side (seven).

Even if you think it is too early to glean clear lessons from the table, the evidence of those nine games, the first almost-quarter of the league season, is promising. Even more so when you place it in the context of Frank’s time at Spurs so far.

Frank took over a team who had just had one of the most unusual seasons in modern club history, winning the Europa League while also losing 22 league games and finishing 17th. He has had to repair the ship while navigating through Premier League and Champions League fixtures. He has had to do this with a fairly patchy squad, with injuries in key positions. He has not been able to give a minute to Dejan Kulusevski or James Maddison — Spurs’ two leading creative midfielders — so far. Dominic Solanke, the first-choice centre-forward, has not started a game yet. There should still be a lot of growth to come.

And yet those three glass-half-full paragraphs do not in fact tell the whole story of Frank’s tenure so far. There have arguably been as many bad performances as good ones. In Europe, Spurs were fortunate to scrape draws at Bodo/Glimt and Monaco, and could easily have lost both games by a distance. Their home league games have been miserable since the Burnley win on opening day. Without Joao Palhinha’s late equaliser against Wolves, they would have lost their last three straight home league games.

GettyImages-2241703924-scaled.jpg

Tottenham’s home form has been cause for concern among fansJohn Walton/Getty Images
Football is not just about numbers and outcomes. Fans want to enjoy the process too. This is true everywhere, but especially at Spurs. This is a club that invested tens of millions of pounds in big-name managers in recent years — first Jose Mourinho, then Antonio Conte — only to realise that the style of play did not fit. There are aesthetic expectations that have to be met.

Every fan is entitled to their own conception of ‘good’ football, but most of those conceptions will share some similar ideas. That their team should be proactive, dominate the ball, play in the opposition half, take risks, and eventually triumph through their own skill, bravery and co-ordination. These are eternal principles, but as English football has grown more technical and possession-oriented in the last 10 years, they have felt increasingly hegemonic.

This is why watching Frank’s Spurs at times has felt jarring. No football fan is fully free from cultural conditioning. Our eyes have adjusted to what we have watched for the last few years. And through those lenses, they do not look good.

Stay in the know by selecting your interests on The Athletic:
Tottenham rarely move the ball through the middle of the pitch, preferring the stability of Rodrigo Bentancur and Palhinha sitting there together. They struggle to pick through a settled opposition defence. They do not overwhelm teams with relentless pressure. Only Aston Villa, Sunderland, West Ham United and Burnley, according to Opta, have had fewer shots than Spurs this season. They do not squeeze the opposition to death in their own half. Only Crystal Palace, Fulham and Burnley have made fewer high turnovers than Spurs. If you drew up a list of how you would expect a dominant team to play, Tottenham would not tick many of the boxes.

Sunday’s 3-0 win at Everton was a case in point. Everton had more possession and more shots. Tottenham spent long spells defending their own box, Kevin Danso endlessly heading the ball away. Guglielmo Vicario had to make two brilliant saves when the game was in the balance. But Spurs were clinical when it mattered. Micky van de Ven twice headed in from corners, and Pape Matar Sarr finished off a counter-attack in the final minutes.

If it was a one-off, some people might have called it lucky. But there is a pattern to these away wins now. Spurs did roughly the same thing to Manchester City in August, West Ham in September and to Leeds United earlier this month. It’s who they are now.

GettyImages-2243441512-scaled.jpg

Micky van de Ven nods in Tottenham’s second at EvertonVisionhaus/Getty Images
It is not hard to spot the change in style and emphasis at Tottenham this season. Away from proactive expansive possession, full-backs attacking through the middle, risk-taking on the ball. Towards stability in the middle of the pitch, Bentancur and Palhinha, maintaining shape in possession and maximising set pieces.

But what is true of Tottenham is true of the league at large. Look at Woolwich, who have gone from playing open possession football to being the best defensive team and best set-piece team in the world. Even City themselves have stepped back from the pure possession game, replacing Ederson with Gianluigi Donnarumma, effectively turning the clock back 10 years in the process. Their game is now about getting the ball to their physically dominant No 9 as quickly and as often as possible. Everywhere you look, teams are going direct, focusing on set pieces, teaching their players how to throw the ball long again. The game has changed faster than anyone could have imagined, and in the opposite direction.

And in this brave new world, this Dychenaissance, who better to manage Tottenham than Thomas Frank? His coaching has always been clear-eyed and strategic about pursuing every advantage for his team. At Brentford, some of his football looked like a throwback in an era of endless possession. But he followed his own path and pursued the intimations in a changing game. And right now, in the era when set pieces are becoming the game itself, his approach is at the cutting edge. And if this is what modern football is, Spurs might as well be good at it.

“Every manager and club wants to compete and it is about finding the small margins,” Frank said in his press conference on Monday, ahead of Wednesday’s League Cup tie at Newcastle. “I think the success that we had at Brentford was maybe not as fancy because we were a smaller club, but also Woolwich picked up (the importance of set pieces). Liverpool two years ago were extremely good at it too. So top clubs picked it up and then go, ‘Oh, you probably need to do this if you want to be able to compete or raise the bar to be even better.’

Tottenham have always needed a manager who is ahead of the tactical curve. They do not have enough money or enough originality to compete in any other way. They had that in Mauricio Pochettino, whose energetic pressing football gave Spurs an edge, before Jurgen Klopp or Guardiola even arrived in English football. But they appointed Mourinho and Conte too late, and could not even give them all the tools to compete anyway. Postecoglou’s expansive possession felt like it might have been the future, but football moved in a different direction — towards the minimalistic efficiency of the game Frank had been honing in Brentford.

Perhaps this is just what good football is now. And we all need to adjust our eyes.

Reasonably balanced for an assessment after only 9 games.

I think everyone is trying to extract too much from this initial sample size of games, tho.

Let him get players back and some quality forward additions, and I think the early judgement on style will change.

I'm sure of that.

Watched a fair amount of Brentford and never thought final third dynamism was an issue.

Didn't stand out as such at all.

They were aggressive and robust all over the pitch and were very positive in trying to score goals.
 
Back
Top