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Manager Thomas Frank

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Are you Frank Out or In?

  • Total voters
    623
Don Pedro said:
The English refs and VAR have a lot to answer for. They made a decision around 2 years ago to stop giving fouls on goalkeepers if players are purposely blocking them off and not playing the ball. Blatant obstruction on a goalkeeper was always a soft free out but for some reason the Prem refs decided to stop given these and demand that keepers be stronger or else stay on their line. These frees are still giving right across Europe and in Champions League games, but for some reason English refs have decided to never give them anymore.

This all changed in the 23/24 season. I'm not sure what the turning point was. Apparently it was some Burnley game in late 2023 that i missed. From a Spurs perspective it began when City got a last minute winner against us in January 2024 when Dias pushed Vicario back and Ake scored while Vicario was fouled. VAR reviewed the goal for 3 mins and decided to give it. A week later we played Everton at Goodison park and Dyche had Vicario surrounded at every set piece. Everton scored from 2 set pieces that day and Vicario was on the ground for both. The precedent was set.

If you don't beat them join them. You can now block off goalkeepers so that they can no longer come to collect the ball meaning that every cross or throw into the box now creates a 50/50 scenario. If you have a very good set piece taker or a strategic set piece routine then you can probably get these odds to 60% and maybe even 70% in your favour. Previously a goalkeeper would always come and collect anything that was within 6 yards of his goal, meaning the defensive team always had a huge advantage and if anyone attempted to block off the keeper without playing the ball, then that would be always given as a free out. Woolwich literally get Declan Rice to do inswingers that land almost on the goal line and the goalkeeper still can't get to them as he has multiple players blocking him off. These would all have been frees out a few seasons back.

So now we have a scenario where teams have gone all in on their set piece routines and have now brought long throw ins back into the game to create more of these scenarios. There is far less emphasis on intrinsic open play football as teams now see set-pieces and throw-ins as their best avenue to goals. Football has gotten a lot uglier.

I'd love to blame Arteta. I'd love to blame Ben White for starting this "fouling the goalkeeper" craze. But the blame really sits with the English refs. They allowed this behaviour to become normal and this gave attacking teams a massive advantage at set-pieces and now its become the main avenue to goals. But watch a champions league game and you'll see most Spurs and Woolwich corners end up being a free out - the ref just blows straight away. Any contact on the keeper and its a free out.
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It’s more than just goalkeepers that English refs have lost of the plot for.

Teams can’t score from open play because there is so much holding and grabbing that is allowed and then there’s an imaginary line that becomes “too much”, which is different for every ref. You can get dribbled by and make no play on the ball and you can still pull the attacker back as long as it’s not “too much”. Look at United’s 3rd goal last week.

Then there’s klopp and pep who mastered the “tactical foul before it looks like a tactical foul” and would just blatantly foul to prevent counter attacks every time they lose possession. Took the league multiple years to catch on.

English refs have made a mess of this league. The PL is lucky English is the predominant world language.
 
Brian Fantana said:
I agree on this. What I saw last season was just a lot of people giving up. Instead of getting angry they were just on their phones instead during the matches. Probably an accumulation of empathy but it felt worse to me as the anger and desire had been drained from a lot of fans, me included. This season I have renewed hope as I can see we aren’t so easy to beat. Just need to get the attack ticking over and we will be fine. Couldn’t say that last year where the goals dried up….except in our own net!
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Ironically the atmosphere so far this year has been much more subdued than perhaps since Nuno? Neither angry or excited. Some of this is down to our very poor home performances so far but I suspect it has more to do with lack of expectation.

We don't expect to win the Champions League, don't expect to compete for the League (in fact dread those cunts winning it), and with our injuries and lack of Transfer Window "A graders" bought - not much to be excited for. I was able to buy a ticket for my son for Chavs yesterday. Can't remember ever being able to do that before that late...

Reckon a win tonight and a performance and 3 points against the Chav cunts would change that pretty damn quick.
 
WillWilliams said:
So do you think that right now the youth should have a huge emphasis on set pieces and long throws?

Bypsssing the midfield whenever possible?

The current premier league meta.


That to you would be a sensible approach to coach our youngsters of 12 -15 years old as we would be copying the first teams strategic approach to games.


And then people will wonder why in a few years we have no technical players and a lot of players who are all quite tall.
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So no context of the position the club and squad is in.

Using a stupid strawman argument, completely ignoring the fact we are having to resort to such tactics, to see us through, and realise it's not a long term philosophy of the club. It may still be a tactic going forward, use everything at your disposal, but it's not vac philosophy though is it.

As Frank trying to rebuild after the mess Ange and Levy is in.

So that's your argument against having a philosophy that runs through the club, like the rest of the best teams in Europe have.
 
Allando said:
I'm glad to hear you think being third in the league is 'decent'
even though its a "slow start" as you say.

And why wouldn't you have that as your lowest expectations? I mean you did end 17th last season after all
so the fact Thomas brings you to third.. should be the absolute bare minimum.
Just tolerable.

Tottenham boys making United fans look grounded.
Amazing.

This guy creates culture, he creates lasting effects as he did in Brentford.
The fact that management shipped off great players they didnt replace, and he is allready making these results
should leave everyone in nothing less than awe.
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And who the fuck are you? Obviously not a Spurs fan as you said "you did finish" not "we" :frankwtf:
 
WillWilliams said:
This guy gets it. “Allan does”

1/4 season played. Behind Bournemouth, equal points with Sunderland.

Shocking. Just tolerable is spot on. Great insight!!
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Lets see where we sit come Christmas as our next run of games is pretty Brutal, I've always said we need to give TF time, but no one can deny the football has been absolutely shite, I mock the goons for being Set piece FC but thats what we are becoming, there is an argument thats the way the PL in general is headed but I just don't like it, however I fully get our attack bar Kudus has been relegation fodder at best yet we are still picking up points, but we just don't look very good but its a work in Progress, if we are still playing this way at the end of the season and sit mid table with players back fit then it would be right to start asking questions.
 
GinolasLeftFoot said:
So no context of the position the club and squad is in.

Using a stupid strawman argument, completely ignoring the fact we are having to resort to such tactics, to see us through, and realise it's not a long term philosophy of the club. It may still be a tactic going forward, use everything at your disposal, but it's not vac philosophy though is it.

As Frank trying to rebuild after the mess Ange and Levy is in.

So that's your argument against having a philosophy that runs through the club, like the rest of the best teams in Europe have.
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I’m pretty sure the academy will have a philosophy that runs through the academy.
So I don’t think you need to worry about that.

However this is what you said. What point are you trying to make.

“This Spurs, this the way we play”. What does that actually mean. Is it even English??

In full for context.

“This Spurs, this the way we play, that ran through the club from top to bottom, from youth to senior.”

As the style of the senior team in really that depends on the 1st team manager.


Unless you think these other big European clubs just play the same style of football regardless of the manager they employ? Pep is the same as Flick, Alonso the same as Ancelloti. Tuchel the same as Kompany?

Nothing changes?

Who are these European clubs you are talking about?
 
Phomesy said:
Ironically the atmosphere so far this year has been much more subdued than perhaps since Nuno? Neither angry or excited. Some of this is down to our very poor home performances so far but I suspect it has more to do with lack of expectation.

We don't expect to win the Champions League, don't expect to compete for the League (in fact dread those cunts winning it), and with our injuries and lack of Transfer Window "A graders" bought - not much to be excited for. I was able to buy a ticket for my son for Chavs yesterday. Can't remember ever being able to do that before that late...

Reckon a win tonight and a performance and 3 points against the Chav cunts would change that pretty damn quick.
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I have a feeling we will beat the chavs.

Yes the atmosphere hasn’t been great but we haven’t played anyone of note yet and those same games were flat last season. I just think everyone is a bit fed up and jaded from a number of seasons of hard work as a fan.
 
Allando said:
I'm glad to hear you think being third in the league is 'decent'
even though its a "slow start" as you say.

And why wouldn't you have that as your lowest expectations? I mean you did end 17th last season after all
so the fact Thomas brings you to third.. should be the absolute bare minimum.
Just tolerable.

Tottenham boys making United fans look grounded.
Amazing.

This guy creates culture, he creates lasting effects as he did in Brentford.
The fact that management shipped off great players they didnt replace, and he is allready making these results
should leave everyone in nothing less than awe.
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The fuck is this guy? Some knobber with a hard-on for Frank?
 
Don Pedro said:
The English refs and VAR have a lot to answer for. They made a decision around 2 years ago to stop giving fouls on goalkeepers if players are purposely blocking them off and not playing the ball. Blatant obstruction on a goalkeeper was always a soft free out but for some reason the Prem refs decided to stop given these and demand that keepers be stronger or else stay on their line. These frees are still giving right across Europe and in Champions League games, but for some reason English refs have decided to never give them anymore.

This all changed in the 23/24 season. I'm not sure what the turning point was. Apparently it was some Burnley game in late 2023 that i missed. From a Spurs perspective it began when City got a last minute winner against us in January 2024 when Dias pushed Vicario back and Ake scored while Vicario was fouled. VAR reviewed the goal for 3 mins and decided to give it. A week later we played Everton at Goodison park and Dyche had Vicario surrounded at every set piece. Everton scored from 2 set pieces that day and Vicario was on the ground for both. The precedent was set.

If you don't beat them join them. You can now block off goalkeepers so that they can no longer come to collect the ball meaning that every cross or throw into the box now creates a 50/50 scenario. If you have a very good set piece taker or a strategic set piece routine then you can probably get these odds to 60% and maybe even 70% in your favour. Previously a goalkeeper would always come and collect anything that was within 6 yards of his goal, meaning the defensive team always had a huge advantage and if anyone attempted to block off the keeper without playing the ball, then that would be always given as a free out. Woolwich literally get Declan Rice to do inswingers that land almost on the goal line and the goalkeeper still can't get to them as he has multiple players blocking him off. These would all have been frees out a few seasons back.

So now we have a scenario where teams have gone all in on their set piece routines and have now brought long throw ins back into the game to create more of these scenarios. There is far less emphasis on intrinsic open play football as teams now see set-pieces and throw-ins as their best avenue to goals. Football has gotten a lot uglier.

I'd love to blame Arteta. I'd love to blame Ben White for starting this "fouling the goalkeeper" craze. But the blame really sits with the English refs. They allowed this behaviour to become normal and this gave attacking teams a massive advantage at set-pieces and now its become the main avenue to goals. But watch a champions league game and you'll see most Spurs and Woolwich corners end up being a free out - the ref just blows straight away. Any contact on the keeper and its a free out.
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Great post.
 
Don Pedro said:
The English refs and VAR have a lot to answer for. They made a decision around 2 years ago to stop giving fouls on goalkeepers if players are purposely blocking them off and not playing the ball. Blatant obstruction on a goalkeeper was always a soft free out but for some reason the Prem refs decided to stop given these and demand that keepers be stronger or else stay on their line. These frees are still giving right across Europe and in Champions League games, but for some reason English refs have decided to never give them anymore.

This all changed in the 23/24 season. I'm not sure what the turning point was. Apparently it was some Burnley game in late 2023 that i missed. From a Spurs perspective it began when City got a last minute winner against us in January 2024 when Dias pushed Vicario back and Ake scored while Vicario was fouled. VAR reviewed the goal for 3 mins and decided to give it. A week later we played Everton at Goodison park and Dyche had Vicario surrounded at every set piece. Everton scored from 2 set pieces that day and Vicario was on the ground for both. The precedent was set.

If you don't beat them join them. You can now block off goalkeepers so that they can no longer come to collect the ball meaning that every cross or throw into the box now creates a 50/50 scenario. If you have a very good set piece taker or a strategic set piece routine then you can probably get these odds to 60% and maybe even 70% in your favour. Previously a goalkeeper would always come and collect anything that was within 6 yards of his goal, meaning the defensive team always had a huge advantage and if anyone attempted to block off the keeper without playing the ball, then that would be always given as a free out. Woolwich literally get Declan Rice to do inswingers that land almost on the goal line and the goalkeeper still can't get to them as he has multiple players blocking him off. These would all have been frees out a few seasons back.

So now we have a scenario where teams have gone all in on their set piece routines and have now brought long throw ins back into the game to create more of these scenarios. There is far less emphasis on intrinsic open play football as teams now see set-pieces and throw-ins as their best avenue to goals. Football has gotten a lot uglier.

I'd love to blame Arteta. I'd love to blame Ben White for starting this "fouling the goalkeeper" craze. But the blame really sits with the English refs. They allowed this behaviour to become normal and this gave attacking teams a massive advantage at set-pieces and now its become the main avenue to goals. But watch a champions league game and you'll see most Spurs and Woolwich corners end up being a free out - the ref just blows straight away. Any contact on the keeper and its a free out.
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what on earth is a "free out"?? did i miss a meeting? i think you mean "free kick" but it's hurting my head a bit.
 
Don Pedro said:
The English refs and VAR have a lot to answer for. They made a decision around 2 years ago to stop giving fouls on goalkeepers if players are purposely blocking them off and not playing the ball. Blatant obstruction on a goalkeeper was always a soft free out but for some reason the Prem refs decided to stop given these and demand that keepers be stronger or else stay on their line. These frees are still giving right across Europe and in Champions League games, but for some reason English refs have decided to never give them anymore.

This all changed in the 23/24 season. I'm not sure what the turning point was. Apparently it was some Burnley game in late 2023 that i missed. From a Spurs perspective it began when City got a last minute winner against us in January 2024 when Dias pushed Vicario back and Ake scored while Vicario was fouled. VAR reviewed the goal for 3 mins and decided to give it. A week later we played Everton at Goodison park and Dyche had Vicario surrounded at every set piece. Everton scored from 2 set pieces that day and Vicario was on the ground for both. The precedent was set.

If you don't beat them join them. You can now block off goalkeepers so that they can no longer come to collect the ball meaning that every cross or throw into the box now creates a 50/50 scenario. If you have a very good set piece taker or a strategic set piece routine then you can probably get these odds to 60% and maybe even 70% in your favour. Previously a goalkeeper would always come and collect anything that was within 6 yards of his goal, meaning the defensive team always had a huge advantage and if anyone attempted to block off the keeper without playing the ball, then that would be always given as a free out. Woolwich literally get Declan Rice to do inswingers that land almost on the goal line and the goalkeeper still can't get to them as he has multiple players blocking him off. These would all have been frees out a few seasons back.

So now we have a scenario where teams have gone all in on their set piece routines and have now brought long throw ins back into the game to create more of these scenarios. There is far less emphasis on intrinsic open play football as teams now see set-pieces and throw-ins as their best avenue to goals. Football has gotten a lot uglier.

I'd love to blame Arteta. I'd love to blame Ben White for starting this "fouling the goalkeeper" craze. But the blame really sits with the English refs. They allowed this behaviour to become normal and this gave attacking teams a massive advantage at set-pieces and now its become the main avenue to goals. But watch a champions league game and you'll see most Spurs and Woolwich corners end up being a free out - the ref just blows straight away. Any contact on the keeper and its a free out.
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also i'm not saying you're wrong but our first equaliser in that bonkers 4-3 against leeds, we basically pushed their keeper into the net allowing harry to score a rebound. and that was 2022. so i suppose it's always been a bit of a grey area. (of course back in the proper old days - 50s/ 60s even maybe? - if you shoulder charged the keeper into the net while he was holding the ball it would get given as a goal. so they tell me. i'm not that old.)
 
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