Manager Thomas Frank

[McCOYS]

Frank's defensive line is higher than Ange's was so it's not really about sitting deep...

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I'm not arguing that he's sitting deep now, Don Pedro said that's it's what managers at clubs like Brentford do, and Frank is struggling to come to terms with not sitting deep with our club.

I'm just unconvinced that clubs with the status of Brentford are particularly known for sitting deep, as I said some of our past managers that came from lower status clubs weren't known for sitting deep before we appointed them.

If Frank was (I don't honestly know) playing the sit deep game at Brentford, and now he's being expected to operate with this high defensive line, then it's like when a player is played in the wrong position ie a square peg in a round hole.

So I disagree with Don that low status clubs and sitting deep go hand in hand, but if Frank has had to change from sitting deep at Brentford to a high defensive line here, ie change his entire ethos, then maybe we've hired another Nuno.

 

[Hampshire Spur]

It'll be a bit of a weird one if Brentford end the season with more points than us, because it would mean we may as well have hired Brentford's set piece coach as our first team manager.

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Cant see brentford finishing above us tbh.

 

[Timberwolf]

Hoping and wanting Frank to do well is not the same as what you expect to happen.

From what I've seen already I fear the worst.

The injuries to Solanke and Muani are the ones that are killing him.

With a fit Solanke, from the start of the season, Spurs have more points at this stage; in my opinion.

The problem Frank has is the Woolwich game off the back of that performance against Chelsea.

The result and performance in the Woolwich game will frame how Frank is perceived going forward.

Another Chelsea / Bournemouth display, or a good lumping, and I reckon he is toast.

Not if but when.

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Nah, the Woolwich result won't have much bearing tbh. Obviously it's a huge game but the sad truth is pretty much everyone is expecting us to lose that one and it feels like a bit of a free hit. The Chelsea game was at home after they'd just lost to Sunderland - that felt much more winnable so when we didn't even show up it hit even harder.

I think losing against Copenhagen or United would've ultimately been much more damaging to Frank than losing to Woolwich or PSG. If we'd gone from 0.05 xG vs Chelsea to getting battered by a Danish team, putting our CL qualification in jeapordy, that would've really hurt him. Or losing in an unconvincing fashion to that United side.

If there's one game that I think could really hurt Frank in this run, it's the Fulham game. If we lose that game at home after poor performances against Woolwich and PSG things could get ugly and the pressure could build. We play Newcastle away after that so could start spiralling.

 

[manmountainbutters]

Ange got time, so Frank should too…..

Ange got time because after 11 games in his first season, trying to unfuck the whole managerial shite from the previous season and having lost our best player, he had us near the top of the league. Not playing like Brazil 1970, but doing well enough.

Frank is doing worse than that. Better than last season, but worse than Ange’s first.

Anyone doing the comparison between last season and this, can’t be also using the “give him time argument”, as it’s disingenuous and a bit dim.

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The key issue is whether the team is better than the team he inherited. It should be given the signings. And it yes. Ange's first games of either season are totally irrelevant.

 

[TonySoprano]

I do think Frank is unlucky with the Maddison injury.

Take Maddison out of Ange’s first 2 years and it’s an even bigger car crash than we saw.

 

[_mehstg]

If the club don't win a trophy, what's the lowest league table position you would accept at the end of the season for Frank not to be sacked, I mean with these players, and Maddison not playing any matches?

I'm thinking for me it's 8th but that might be a bit mean?

Be interesting to also see what's the lowest position other people on this forum would accept.

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5th

 

[_mehstg]

I really don't think he gets anywhere a full season.

But good question. It's not about the results for me, if we start producing performances which statistically, are good, but we're losing, we're playing actual football, then that's the litmus test for me.

But right now it's the manner of the performances, it's clueless, aimless, bad at both ends, horrendous in-between. Can't pick a team, subs are too late or wrong a lot of the time. Things I've been concerned about for weeks aren't getting any better, and results are trending the same way. So it's the manner of everything just now. Yes, we have injuries etc etc but having 4 through balls through 10 games of the season is disgraceful. That's a tactical decision which just affirms that if you defend wide and don't concede corners, we're generally not a threat. The only reason we're as high as we are in the league (until the weekend) is by sheer blind luck. We can't keep overachieving like we are on both sides of the pitch. Metrics have us like 15th, which is not good enough, even if it is a 2 place improvement.

Madison, Kulusevski, Son (a shadow of himself), got replaced with £145m (£155m with Tel's mental loan fee), is being backed and it shouldn't be handicapping us like it is. Our attacking players look especially bad because he persists on playing the human hand break every game, who absolutely kills our ability to play out of the back. Our two in midfield typically sit far too low, so our 10's can't get the ball, and when they do, they're crowded out easily. It also means we dick about on the ball for far too long, with players that can be pressed, so we invite pressing teams to get the ball in our final third. Things like this have been so obvious for weeks, yet persist.

I don't buy the argument another manager couldn't do better. We hired a manager who plays rear guard football, yet we're still dreadful at the back, but now just hopeless up top.

Again, he starts to address this and I'm happy, but right now, this isn't sustainable both for his football and for his time here. Fans aren't going to suffer through that football if we're not winning games, like it or not.

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A proper post....

 

[_mehstg]

He's just not gonna get sacked though unless things get really really toxic (in which case I probably agree with you).

You're pissing in the wind if you think this is another Nuno situation and they're gonna give him the boot mid-season after a few bad results. This is more akin to Amorim at United - the new leadership group have pinned their reputation on this guy and they're gonna give him some time to adjust even if it takes a while.

It's fine to not like the football but just feels excessively negative and doom-mongering to be calling for the new guy's head so soon, especially when it's so unlikely to even happen. I don't think anyone on here is loving the football so far but I'd much rather live in hope while there is some rather than writing Frank off at the first opportunity.

Frank's not gonna have us playing liquid football - that's not his thing - but I'm positive that, if given time and backing, he'll have us playing much better than we've looked so far this season. It might not be good enough to match our ambitions but I don't think he's some completely negative dinosaur like you're making out.

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6 months (time) and 150m (backing). Result: turgid Scandi-ball and no tangible improvement...

 

[Shadydan]

I'm not arguing that he's sitting deep now, Don Pedro said that's it's what managers at clubs like Brentford do, and Frank is struggling to come to terms with not sitting deep with our club.

I'm just unconvinced that clubs with the status of Brentford are particularly known for sitting deep, as I said some of our past managers that came from lower status clubs weren't known for sitting deep before we appointed them.

If Frank was (I don't honestly know) playing the sit deep game at Brentford, and now he's being expected to operate with this high defensive line, then it's like when a player is played in the wrong position ie a square peg in a round hole.

So I disagree with Don that low status clubs and sitting deep go hand in hand, but if Frank has had to change from sitting deep at Brentford to a high defensive line here, ie change his entire ethos, then maybe we've hired another Nuno.

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I don't think it's too different, this was taken from 23/24 season, there's not a lot in it at all.

There's a misconception that Frank is a defensive coach who plays a deep line, his lines have mostly been average heights in the league, that's not the issue - it's the intention when we do have the ball and the risks we don't take.

Sidenote: People are talking about Glasner saying they would prefer him yet his Palace team sit with a much deeper line than most teams in the league and they let the other team have the ball, not sure our fans would stand for that.

 

[Mick Cooper]

THFC - the club with the most fickle fans and the fastest spinning revolving door on the managers office

 

[Paul Gascoigne]

Frank is doing a perfectly professional job given the staff. No manager can achieve the results we want in one window. Added to that Kolo has not grasped the CF position as we had hoped.
I fully expect Toney to join on loan in Jan to bale us out.
Also, it is getting harder and more expensive to get teams to part with their best players. In the summer we missed Bueno and MGW.

 

[_mehstg]

Football these days seem to be all about stats. I'm not big on stat, but that through ball stats is horrendous - only two for the whole season!

Then, in trying to understand the stat, I came across this: Through-balls in the Premier League

Interesting thing is through-balls reached it's peak more than a decade ago! During that time ManCity attempted the most through-balls: 321 in total, of which 75 were successful, 44 led to a shot on goal and 13 goals were scored!

The same season, 2011/2012 as it were, the cunts up the road attempted 293 through-balls, 87 were sussesfull, 53 led to shots and only 24 goals were scored!

So how crucial is it to coach through-balls?

Needles to say, I 'm still not big on stats

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Only one stat matters and it's usually on your TV screen in the top left corner for the entire match. After the score then I will look at the performance. Did we deserve it, did we not... that's it... Those two simple tests are all one needs to form an opinion.

 

[Don Pedro]

But Mourinho had our team sitting deep, didn't he? So I'm not sure that it's only a manager in a lower level club like Brentford that play the sit deep game. We got Pochettino from Southampton another lower than us club, I don't recall him being known for sitting deep when he was there, or here. Then there's Redknapp, we're the biggest team he managed but he wasn't known for sitting deep at his previous clubs.

If we've gone and hired a manager known for sitting deep, and want him to have the team playing on the front foot, we've made the same mistake as when we hired Nuno.

So I respectfully disagree with you.

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This was a huge concern on here with Frank's appointment. That it could be very similar to Nuno and I was vocal about these concerns. So this is not new information.

Iraola doesn't sit back and defend. His teams attack more and many felt he was the more suitable option at the time. Frank and Andrews approach is defensive. They prioritise defence and go for the most risk averse way of creating chances (little risk in open play and a heavy reliance on set piece threat). How many times have we seen Simons on the ball in space and none of the fullbacks or midfielders make a run for him? They sit an stay in position. Meaning we offer little threat in open play as we aren't gambling enough. Redknapp and Poch were not defensive when they were at smaller clubs, they played a good style of football that we wanted them to use at Spurs. The hope was and still is, that Frank was only playing defensive football to get the most out of his Brentford side and that he can adapt a new approach now with a far greater squad.

 

[_mehstg]

I think if your Anti Frank or overly Pro Frank then your probably wrong. The truth is somewhere in the middle and its far too early to judge him. Away form has been elite and we are hard to beat. Home form as been horrific and we are a boring side to watch now.

I'd like to think we are all behind Frank though and hoping he can turn the home form around! If you've given up on him already then you really have to question your expectations and probably need to look at yourself as a supporter. But if you are totally pro Frank and freaking out at any criticism he gets then you aren't much better.

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Completely disagree... I could say that if you continue to support the insipid bollocks being served up every week, then you need to look at yourself as a supporter... works both ways... and as the 9th richest football club in the world and 4th richest in the PL our expectations should be top 4 EVERY season... and at least one major final. If you think we are some mid table nothing club then I worry about you.

 

[daveyboy88]

I do think Frank is unlucky with the Maddison injury.

Take Maddison out of Ange’s first 2 years and it’s an even bigger car crash than we saw.

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best player at the club...well, most important when it comes to attacking and opening teams up anyway.

 

[Shadydan]

This was a huge concern on here with Frank's appointment. That it could be very similar to Nuno and I was vocal about these concerns. So this is not new information.

Iraola doesn't sit back and defend. His teams attack more and many felt he was the more suitable option at the time. Frank and Andrews approach is defensive. They prioritise defence and go for the most risk averse way of creating chances (little risk in open play and a heavy reliance on set piece threat). Redknapp and Poch were not defensive when they were at smaller clubs, they played a good style of football that we wanted them to use at Spurs. The hope was and still is, that Frank was only playing defensive football to get the most out of his Brentford side and that he can adapt a new approach now with a far greater squad.

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Iraola going from a Bournemouth team playing 1 game a week at super high intensity to manage our injury plagued squad playing in the Champions League is a disaster waiting to happen, we'd be totally fucked, we'd have seen the same teething problems that Frank is having because there's no time on the training pitch and probably more injuries than we have now.

 

[Hampshire Spur]

If at xmas were top 6 then hes done well. That's where you finish thereabouts at end of season. If we get CL or europa place that's acceptable. If he wins FA Cup then Im all in.

 

[Don Pedro]

I'm not arguing that he's sitting deep now, Don Pedro said that's it's what managers at clubs like Brentford do, and Frank is struggling to come to terms with not sitting deep with our club.

I'm just unconvinced that clubs with the status of Brentford are particularly known for sitting deep, as I said some of our past managers that came from lower status clubs weren't known for sitting deep before we appointed them.

If Frank was (I don't honestly know) playing the sit deep game at Brentford, and now he's being expected to operate with this high defensive line, then it's like when a player is played in the wrong position ie a square peg in a round hole.

So I disagree with Don that low status clubs and sitting deep go hand in hand, but if Frank has had to change from sitting deep at Brentford to a high defensive line here, ie change his entire ethos, then maybe we've hired another Nuno.

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I always viewed Brentford under as a pragmatic side who set up to stop their opposition play their game. That approach doesn't work for Spurs in home games where the away team are happy to sit deep and take no risks. We end up doing the same thing and the game quickly turns into a damp squib where the fans are groaning after 20 mins.

I think it was a risky hiring and there is huge similarities to Nuno. But I'm hoping this was all addressed when we interviewed Frank and he has his own idea on how he can adapt his own approach to make this work. But he will need a lot of time.

 

[Don Pedro]

Iraola going from a Bournemouth team playing 1 game a week at super high intensity to manage our injury plagued squad playing in the Champions League is a disaster waiting to happen, we'd be totally fucked, we'd have seen the same teething problems that Frank is having because there's no time on the training pitch and probably more injuries than we have now.

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Oh yeah for sure. I'm not saying any manager would be doing any better than Frank given all the ongoing issues both on and off the pitch.

I'm just talking about style of play. Frank's Brentford were always a pragmatic team who played to stop their opposition. They often came unstuck at home when teams sat against them. This is and always was going to be his biggest test. I'm happy to let him learn and adapt and judge him at the end of the season. I do think he's an honest man who is doing everything he can to turn our home form around. Its just a huge change for him

 

[Shadydan]

Oh yeah for sure. I'm not saying any manager would be doing any better than Frank given all the ongoing issues both on and off the pitch.

I'm just talking about style of play. Frank's Brentford were always a pragmatic team who played to stop their opposition. They often came unstuck at home when teams sat against them. This is and always was going to be his biggest test. I'm happy to let him learn and adapt and judge him at the end of the season. I do think he's an honest man who is doing everything he can to turn our home form around. Its just a huge change for him

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I think we're going too early on Frank's style, this isn't his end game...at least I hope it's not.