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Manager Thomas Frank

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Are you Frank Out or In?

  • Total voters
    623
Are we really back at this false dichotomy between managers and players where some people can't wrap their heads around the possibility that we might be doing a bad job at recruiting both?

Except Conte who was also doing well here and who resigned anyway, which manager we appointed and sacked in the last 20 years went on to do great things to make us look like mugs for sacking him? Redknapp? AVB? Pochettino? Mourinho? Nuno? Ange?

I mean, the guy for whose return there is dedicated thread in the forum is managing a middling national team at the age of 53, a time where a manager is usually at the peak of his powers. And the rest are retired [AVB, Redknapp], is continuing his downward spiral [JM], have gone back / will go back to their comfort zone [Nuno, Frank] etc. Our EL winner of a manager got sacked in 39 days by his mate and compatriot, and God knows where he will end up next.

We do not somehow keep stumbling upon great managers who we then let down by handing a group of mediocre players while expecting the world from them. Both are part of the issue.
 
arngspurs said:
Problem is, who do we go for from here? All the noise from the club in the summer was that they were so convinced frank was the perfect fit for the role, I’ve got absolutely 0 confidence they’ll get it right next.

All I know is I never want to see a pragmatic manager at this club ever again. It simply does not work
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You get all the whining, lies, entitlement and hyperbole about the owners from the usual idiotic suspects round here, but the one thing the owners have been genuinely and consistently terrible at, which surely can't be questioned by even the most balanced or generous of members on here, is manager selection (and sometimes timing). It has always been my biggest issue with our owners / board - we seem to lurch from one style to another, with no real thought or long-long term plan. Whatever anyone's opinion on the good / bad done by the owners over the years, surely we can all agree that this is and always has been the biggest failure. And not even an expensive one to get right (indeed we've splurged huge amounts of money on 'wrong' managers many times, so it's not about money) - it just takes a bit of thought and understanding of (re-establishing) our long-term football identity. And our board doesn't have, never has had, and seemingly never will have that. :(
 
Kaz Hirai said:
Yeah those subs did it for me. I'm usually calm about giving managers 2 seasons even but that was a cowardly move
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Schooled by Sean dyche says it all for me - he is an absolutely fraud - as a long time spurs fan I am used to be shite and losing games but the absolute garbage franks team dishes up is soul destroying anti football shite - barely missed a game in years but didn’t apply for palace Brentford or Bournemouth and have listed my Liverpool and Sunderland seats - watching the boring tedious drivel provided by this shower of shit is not something I want to do any more
 
He's lost the dressing room, surely. You could sense that when Van de Ven and Spence barged past him after Chelsea, and Spence's reaction to being subbed yesterday. The reports have already come out that players don't enjoy training, and when the away fans boo then you know the end is near.
 
Gatsby said:
He's lost the dressing room, surely. You could sense that when Van de Ven and Spence barged past him after Chelsea, and Spence's reaction to being subbed yesterday. The reports have already come out that players don't enjoy training, and when the away fans boo then you know the end is near.
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They don't respect him that's for sure.

Say what you want about the previous coach, they never stopped running for him and he led them to a trophy, they're probably looking at this guy thinking he's a massive downgrade.
 
Kaz Hirai said:
Cant see him being sacked even after defeats to those 2 tbh.
They will wait for the Summer. More manager choice, and giving him a full season makes it look more like a fair considered decision
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What a ridiculous way to run a football club if that indeed is their main concern.

Who cares if it is or isn't a fair and considered decision? Do you get a trophy for being fair and considered?

Optics don't matter one bit, if they think he's the man for the job then give him the season, if they don't then get rid as soon as possible, sod writing off an entire season once again to be "fair and considered", where has this stupid bloody notion even come from?
 
Shadydan said:
They don't respect him that's for sure.

Say what you want about the previous coach, they never stopped running for him and he led them to a trophy, they're probably looking at this guy thinking he's a massive downgrade.
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Hmmm yeah, it could be an issue about the respect they had for Ange after that cup win and the parade love in.
As soon as things didn't work with Frank alot of them probably more than happy to stop listening to Frank and openly disrespect him

Sometimes you do just want the club to back the manager over players who probably believe they can outlast him. If only we had a better guy in charge than Mr Milquetoast then id be all for that
 
Don Pedro said:
What makes this whole situation worse, is that we are building nothing. If anything our foundations are being ripped apart. Frank's style of play is pragmatism where we over adapt to what the opposition do. This is a short term solution to get results and we aren't even doing that. He is also prioritising playing senior players when possible which again is short term thinking. This is fine and almost ideal if we are close to getting over the line (you can't win with kids!), BUT we are 11th in the league and totally inconsistent!

Atleast under Ange there was a clear style of play and the players had bought into it. The foundations were strong and he was giving youngsters like Bergval and even Mikey Moore minutes. His style was ultimately naive and led to injuries, but he had laid good foundations for the next manager. All we had to do was get better at set pieces and manage the game state much better. It was there. It just needed small adjustments.

But Frank has totally fucked this job up. He's ripped away any style of play, he hasn't a clue who his best players are because the tactics are different every game, and it looks like he's gone all in on the set pieces rather than focusing on any open play patterns. I can't see how this gets better. I can confidently say that even if we had Solanke, Maddison and Kulusevski back that nothing would improve. Even if we sign 3 top players in January, I don't see him making us a top side.

This is Nuno all over again but the worst thing about it is we are letting it drag out this time and he's driving us off a cliff. Under Ange there was always a feeling that we could be a top team when our players were available and there was some big results to back that up. Under Frank, we just play like the underdog every week. We never play like a top team under him, even our 2 good results earlier in the season (PSG and CITY), we sat back and got lucky for large periods. I really wanted to believe we could play like that in certain games but then be a dominant force in most games but its not happened. 3-0 defeat to forest is the pits. He's destroyed any foundations Ange had laid. Its worse than even now.
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I fully agree regarding the fact that we are not building for anything and this current state just feels completely hopeless from top to bottom. We'd need at least 10 out and 10 in in January window. Which is maybe done once in history of the game on that level (that one Chelsea Jan window).

But I also fully and completely disagree with Ange building any foundations. It was 180 degrees other way around. There was fundamentally nothing except for the experience of lifting the trophy to take from it. Actually all we had to do to actually make it against sides stronger than fcking Bodo Glimt was to change everything completely. But too much have been talked about Ange vs Frank topic by now....

I think realistically we should focus where we are now and where do we go from here. I am repeating myself, but I'd like to see some consistent improvement from game to game. Trial and error approach where the successful things are used and failures forgotten. Unfortunately this is not what I am seeing. When Kolo Muani plays a good game as striker, I see him pushed to LW next game just to fit in Richie. Which does not make any sense to me.
 
Herclueless said:
What a ridiculous way to run a football club if that indeed is their main concern.

Who cares if it is or isn't a fair and considered decision? Do you get a trophy for being fair and considered?

Optics don't matter one bit, if they think he's the man for the job then give him the season, if they don't then get rid as soon as possible, sod writing off an entire season once again to be "fair and considered", where has this stupid bloody notion even come from?
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I mean optics do matter if you're trying to entice the next guy to come in - why would they go to a club who sack a manager half way through a season if youre trying to build a project?

It's what it is, you bring a bring a new in half way the season us written off anyway unless it's a manager you plan to stick with long term, I don't see any candidates out there right now that we can do that with unless Xabi Alonso decides to realise a life long dream to work at N17 under the Lewis ownership.
 
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Go to Redcafe and you will probably see the same exact rhetoric, with some Utd fans with an especially soft spot for the role due to the fond memories of SAF days insisting that -virtually- all the managers they hired and sacked since SAF were actually let down by poor players.

Except you actually look at what those managers went on to do after leaving Utd, and you see stuff like getting sacked by Besiktas in less than a year or by Leverkusen after 2 league games.

Other cases aren't more encouraging: LVG retired almost straight after, Moyes has gone back to his comfort zone, and Amorim will most likely end up in a much smaller league/club sooner than later.

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The moral of the story is that every fanbase has members that have an almost venerating attitude towards the managerial role in general and individuals who occupy that role at a given time in particular, no matter how poor of a job they might be doing. It's enough for them to just find their way to the job: They are guaranteed to enjoy a kind of dedication and reverence that very few mere mortals do in this world.

Despite all the red flags about Frank and warnings by some of us that our earlier results were not sustainable at all, this thread was also filled with posts oozing such an attitude until quite recently. And we all remember the kind of support the previous manager also received for a long time by a lot of people here.

Certainly a very bizarre psychological phenomenon that's worth studying.
 
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Gatsby said:
He's lost the dressing room, surely. You could sense that when Van de Ven and Spence barged past him after Chelsea, and Spence's reaction to being subbed yesterday. The reports have already come out that players don't enjoy training, and when the away fans boo then you know the end is near.
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This is my fear. Whatever anyone says about Ange (and don't misunderstand me here, I was probably a bit later than most fans to get to 'Ange Out', but I was consistently of that opinion from end of Jan onwards...) - Ange never lost the players, or it certainly didn't look like it. We never looked like we didn't want to play, didn't want to get involved etc, if anything it was the opposite, players trying too hard and consequently making stupid mistakes. Ange obviously still had to go, the crazy football was unsustainable, but despite a tenure of 2 years of that crazy football, he never lost the players - Frank seems to have done so in just a few months (if he ever even had them on side - it may well be that some of them weren't keen on him in the first place maybe, particularly any of them who had bought into Ange's overall approach, albeit presumably wanting it to be toned down a bit...)

That's why it took me so long to reluctantly agree that Ange had to go - because the players were still with him. For me, once you lose the players, you'll never get them back, and we might well be at that horrible place already with Frank. :(
 
Shadydan said:
They don't respect him that's for sure.

Say what you want about the previous coach, they never stopped running for him and he led them to a trophy, they're probably looking at this guy thinking he's a massive downgrade.
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Losing 20 league games and finishing 17th one place out of the relegation places under the previous coach. Imagine what would have happened if they weren’t bursting a gut for him and had actually downed tools.
 
BJK said:
Are we really back at this false dichotomy between managers and players where some people can't wrap their heads around the possibility that we might be doing a bad job at recruiting both?

Except Conte who was also doing well here and who resigned anyway, which manager we appointed and sacked in the last 20 years went on to do great things to make us look like mugs for sacking him? Redknapp? AVB? Pochettino? Mourinho? Nuno? Ange?

I mean, the guy for whose return there is dedicated thread in the forum is managing a middling national team at the age of 53, a time where a manager is usually at the peak of his powers. And the rest are retired [AVB, Redknapp], is continuing his downward spiral [JM], have gone back / will go back to their comfort zone [Nuno, Frank] etc. Our EL winner of a manager got sacked in 39 days by his mate and compatriot, and God knows where he will end up next.

We do not somehow keep stumbling upon great managers who we then let down by handing a group of mediocre players while expecting the world from them. Both are part of the issue.
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Really good post.

Go further, there are very few managers who do that well at more than 1 or 2 clubs.

Emery for example.

We need to have looked at Rodgers before, but we have this arrogance.

Even Pochettino. What did he win until he went to a team where he couldn't lose, and yet initially he did.
 
BJK said:
Go to Redcafe and you will probably see the same exact rhetoric, with some Utd fans with an especially soft spot for the role due to the fond memories of SAF days insisting that -virtually- all the managers they hired and sacked since SAF were actually let down by poor players.

Except you actually look at what those managers went on to do after leaving Utd, and you see stuff like getting sacked by Besiktas in less than a year or by Leverkusen after 2 league games.

Other cases aren't more encouraging: LVG retired almost straight after, Moyes has gone back to his comfort zone, and Amorim will most likely end up in a much smaller league/club sooner than later.

--------​

The moral of the story is that every fanbase has members that have an almost venerating attitude towards the managerial role in general and individuals who occupy that role at a given time in particular, no matter how poor of a job they might be doing. It's enough for them to just find their way to the job: They are guaranteed to enjoy a kind of dedication and reverence that very few mere mortals do in this world.

Despite all the red flags about Frank and warnings by some of us that our earlier results were not sustainable at all, this thread was also filled with posts oozing such an attitude until quite recently. And we all remember the kind of support the previous manager also received for a long time by a lot of people here.

Certainly a very bizarre psychological phenomenon that's worth studying.
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Solskjaer is probably their best manager post Fergie. He didn't win any trophies, but he had started to build a good culture and squad IMO, whereas the Mourinhos, LVGs, and Ten Hags were getting short-term success at a long-term cost.
 
Gmspurs said:
:dembelelol:


No we're not - we've played shite for the first 16 games and still got 22 points.


If we play shite for the next 22 games then we'll most probably end up on 50+ points.


We're not going to be in a relegation fight.
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I disagree strongly.

Spurs have several 6 pointers in January which could see us pulled right down into the dirt under Frank; who is useless.

We have already witnessed him being out coached by Iraola, Silva and now Dyche.

I've seen enough.

Frank is fucking shite.
 
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