Manager Thomas Frank

[_mehstg]

In Ange's first two windows, we bought Johnson, Maddison, VdV, Vicario, Deki (buy clause was not mandatory), and Dragusin, and brought in Werner on loan and Solomon on a free. We lost Kane, Davinson, and Winks.

In Frank's first two windows, we bought Xavi, Kudus, Tel, and Gallagher and brought in RKM and Palhinha on loan. We lost Son and Johnson.

In no world has Frank been the most backed manager in our history. Stay off Bissouma's laughing gas.

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Ange first two windows - 151.4m euros net spend
Frank first two windows - 183.1m euros net spend
Conte first two windows - 159.33m euros net spend
Mourinho first two windows - 129.7m euros net spend
Poch first two windows - 4.33m euros net spend

Before you ask I did take into account Mourinho and Conte joined mid season and so their first window's were January followed by August.

I sentence you to one humble apology to Richard Arlison

Case dismissed

Next

 

[bonaspur23]

Ange first two windows - 151.4m euros net spend
Frank first two windows - 183.1m euros net spend
Conte first two windows - 159.33m euros net spend
Mourinho first two windows - 129.7m euros net spend
Poch first two windows - 4.33m euros net spend

Before you ask I did take into account Mourinho and Conte joined mid season and so their first window's were January followed by August.

I sentence you to one humble apology to Richard Arlison

Case dismissed

Next

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You are forgetting that net spend in the PL has increased significantly in the last few years.

Prior to 21/22, 1.1 billion net spend was the highest ever in a season. Since then, 3 of the 4 years have exceeded that. So the average team is spending a lot more nowadays which means even if we are spending more on transfer fees, we aren't spending more relative to the competition.

Also the extremely obvious factor, the squad is shit and the scouting is shit. So is the coaching to be fair. But pretending like Frank has had the best hand out of all our managers is a bit ridiculous.

 

[_mehstg]

It depends on the metrics of "poor at your job". Taking out emotion and fan bias, you could say:

• Has massively exceeded expectations in the CL, which has generated a lot of revenue
  (yes, everyone was expecting us to get stiffed, not to finish 4th in the group stage)
• Has started the season with key players missing to long term injury and has seen then issue compound for the 3rd year in a row, despite rotating
• Has arguably been dealt a weak hand with the squad available, with Son not replaced and been given a worse-than-Carlos-Vinicius player as a loan strikers
• And this is the one that certain tools on here really struggle with comprehending - is still currently outperforming the points total of last season so far

That isn't my 'defence' of Frank - I don't think anyone expected last seasons 17th place finish to become the metronome to base our seasons off, nor should it be seen as a point-of-reference for a normal season. It's merely a matter of how it might be measured in terms of his performance in terms of what you refer to as "poor", as it won't necessarily match up to how things will be judged if we somehow get to a CL semi-final or further. It's a biopolar season in performances across the two competitions

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That isn't my 'defence' of Frank

But it is though isn't it...

Massively exceeded expectations in the CL - no he hasn't... with that draw, I would have been slightly dissapointed not to finish top 8 and downright disgusted not to at least make the playoffs... he has exceeded expectations getting 4th but not massively.

He has started the season with key players missing. Surprised you didn't double down on this and blame Ange. That's your usual MO on injuries... but of course, injuries have continued and Ange isn't here anymore so your argument went up in smoke.

Has arguably been dealt a weak hand - nah mate, he lost and aging Son that was abused for much of last season for being well past his prime. Ange lost prime Kane, a guy still breaking scoring records today. I know who got the weaker hand and it weren't your poster boy

Still outperforming points total for last season - we ended match day 26 on 33 points and +15 GD last season; so by my reckoning, Frank needs 4 points and +13 GD over the next two games (United away and Newcastle at home) to even match Ange... when he doesn't do that, will you comprehend that he is worse than Ange? Probably not... you will then turn to, wait until the end of the season like finishing a few points and places better than 17th is some sort marvellous season we should be grateful for. Honestly, what are you????

 

[daveyboy88]

the scum game is huge for frank, it will be an indicator if he has maybe won a few players round, because the last game against them was nothing but a fucking disgrace. the players should be giving everything in this game regardless of the relationship with the manager. maybe gallagher will make a difference to this.

 

[Shadydan]

You are forgetting that net spend in the PL has increased significantly in the last few years.

Prior to 21/22, 1.1 billion net spend was the highest ever in a season. Since then, 3 of the 4 years have exceeded that. So the average team is spending a lot more nowadays which means even if we are spending more on transfer fees, we aren't spending more relative to the competition.

Also the extremely obvious factor, the squad is shit and the scouting is shit. So is the coaching to be fair. But pretending like Frank has had the best hand out of all our managers is a bit ridiculous.

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Hence why this is a useless argument, how is anyone meant to know who's been backed more if there's general inflation, more to the point how is anyone meant to know what kind of backing these guys are asking for, pointless debate

 

[Tio Martin]

Ange first two windows - 151.4m euros net spend
Frank first two windows - 183.1m euros net spend
Conte first two windows - 159.33m euros net spend
Mourinho first two windows - 129.7m euros net spend
Poch first two windows - 4.33m euros net spend

Before you ask I did take into account Mourinho and Conte joined mid season and so their first window's were January followed by August.

I sentence you to one humble apology to Richard Arlison

Case dismissed

Next

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Conveniently ignoring the massive inflation in player valuations and how much Prem clubs spend over the past 3-4 years.

 

[bonaspur23]

Has arguably been dealt a weak hand - nah mate, he lost and aging Son that was abused for much of last season for being well past his prime. Ange lost prime Kane, a guy still breaking scoring records today. I know who got the weaker hand and it weren't your poster boy

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How does this make sense? Neither had Kane... It doesn't make Frank's squad stronger because we lost Kane 2 years prior to his appointment and Ange lost him prior to his first season. Neither had him.

Son also had 17/10 G/A in Ange's first season and aged out of his prime which is a big reason Ange's 2nd season was much poorer and Frank's season is also poor.

 

[dmize1]

How does this make sense? Neither had Kane... It doesn't make Frank's squad stronger because we lost Kane 2 years prior to his appointment and Ange lost him prior to his first season. Neither had him.

Son also had 17/10 G/A in Ange's first season and aged out of his prime which is a big reason Ange's 2nd season was much poorer and Frank's season is also poor.

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Yeah, one thing the last 2 seasons have really showed me is we, as a fan base and football fans in general, still criminally under rate how good Sonny was.

 

[Richard Arlison]

I’m sure both have a correlation and perhaps the wage correlation is stronger. To say transfer fees have no correlation to winning tells me you don’t know what correlation is.

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It’s well studied debate/phenomenon. I can’t be fucked to dig out the studies, you can put it into Google or AI if you’re actually interested and not just trying to win an argument that you hadn’t really thought that much about.

Wages correlation to winning is Very Strong (r² > 90%)

Transfer net spend correlation is only moderate, mainly due to noise.

Prove it. You are probably going off gross wages which doesn’t account for the significant inflation of wages that has taken place in the past decade or two. Using this logic, any new manager is going to qualify as most backed. An accurate way to measure this would be relative wages when compared to other clubs.

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I don’t need to prove it, I’ve already stated 2 facts:

1. Our wage bill was cut under Ange

2. Our wage bill was changed to accommodate new signings with higher starting wages under Frank, and our wage bill has increased in the 2 windows since Frank arrived.

Romero’s new contract will have contributed to that as well.

Conte, the wage bill went from about 2.1m per week to 2.2m per week in his 2 windows.

Frank inherited a weekly wage bill of around 2.3m per week and with Gallagher arriving it’s up to around 2.5

So, yeah with adding a the likes of Simons and Kudus in one window, plus 2 senior peak age players like Palinha and RKM…now Gallagher…I can’t remember a Spurs coach getting backed like this before,

Our entire MO under Levy was to sign younger, lower wage players with sell on value. I think the Ndombele/Lo Celso window for Poch was the exception to that.

If a decade from now, we are paying double the wages, but so are other clubs, that doesn’t mean that future manager is “more backed”.

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Nobody said it would be.

 

[CJJ]

He's been objectively shit, this sounds like it's been written by Vinai for a case for Frank to keep his job.

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I'm not convinced you know what "objectively" means, then

 

[Spaniel]

Yeah, one thing the last 2 seasons have really showed me is we, as a fan base and football fans in general, still criminally under rate how good Sonny was.

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I'm not sure when I last saw a negative post about Sonny..
I think most of us see him as a legend...

 

[Richard Arlison]

Ange first two windows - 151.4m euros net spend
Frank first two windows - 183.1m euros net spend
Conte first two windows - 159.33m euros net spend
Mourinho first two windows - 129.7m euros net spend
Poch first two windows - 4.33m euros net spend

Before you ask I did take into account Mourinho and Conte joined mid season and so their first window's were January followed by August.

I sentence you to one humble apology to Richard Arlison

Case dismissed

Next

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Mate, I’ve just explained to them that in terms of wage bill increase it’s Frank as well.

They aren’t going to change their minds, though,

As awkward as it is, Frank is currently underperforming vs his backing in a BIG way.

That might change but right now it is what it is

 

[Jenderbazzfass]

How does this make sense? Neither had Kane... It doesn't make Frank's squad stronger because we lost Kane 2 years prior to his appointment and Ange lost him prior to his first season. Neither had him.

Son also had 17/10 G/A in Ange's first season and aged out of his prime which is a big reason Ange's 2nd season was much poorer and Frank's season is also poor.

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The trend for us has always been that good players are sold or age and not replaced, or are replaced with average players.

Honestly, you can trace the decline of the club from the times when we might have become one of the global elite to a failure to replace Dembele. That was when we demurred rather than attempt to build a club that sustains itself at the highest levels.

It was not as if there were no warning, injuries had begun to pile up and it was known that we needed a future replacement but none were ever sought. He was the core of everything then.

And what would we ever have done but faddle around with the likes of Winks, Sissoko, etc. Then we finally attempt to spend later on midfield and end up with an Ndombele. Nothing more on brand for us.

We have never been strong in midfield since, and it was nearly 10 years ago that Dembele's decline began. Constantly shifting managers and systems are no help, but the club has simply never had a desire to acquire a player like that to sustain things.

We only try to compete on the cheap, and instead of replacing quality for quality we replace quality with cheap and cheerful or plain pound-shop signings. And if it goes too far off course we only need replace the manager... simple as could be.

Is it any wonder we wander in the wilderness?

 

[bonaspur23]

It’s well studied debate/phenomenon. I can’t be fucked to dig out the studies, you can put it into Google or AI if you’re actually interested and not just trying to win an argument that you hadn’t really thought that much about.

Wages correlation to winning is Very Strong (r² > 90%)

Transfer net spend correlation is only moderate, mainly due to noise.

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I'm not arguing that the wage correlation is not stronger, but why is the transfer spend correlation due to noise and the wages correlation is not? (In my actually educated opinion, I would guess they have relatively the same amount of "noise"). You could have just left out the noise part and been satisfied with stating that wages have the stronger correlation. Instead you throw in some made up bullshit to try to make your argument stronger. And you always do this type of shit which is why I give you so much shit. It's duplicitous.

You don't understand statistics at all. Stop copying shit from other sources and repeating it blindly. You should not talk about things you don't understand.

 

[Bazali]

I wouldn't at all be surprised if Frank starts next season, and this season is excused due to all the injuries.

I'm not saying it's going to happen, but I wouldn't be surprised if it did, especially if the CEO and DOF are still in place.

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He’s gone in the Summer together with any personnel he brought with him!

 

[Bazali]

I'm not convinced you know what "objectively" means, then

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Surprised he spelled it correctly

 

[McCOYS]

The same DOF and CEO didn’t accept injuries for Ange.

I think it will depend on where we actually end the season.

Outside Europe and I think he gets the boot

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I think so too but I still wouldn't be surprised if they keep him on, with all this Arteta got time etc etc, which appears to be driving their behaviour.

It's like they want to get away from this constant sacking and employing managers, I dunno, but as I say, it would not surprise me in the slightest if Frank is given time beyond this season.

They may also decide that Frank has done fairly well in Europe, considering the team as he put it, didn't earn the right to be in the Champions League because they were one of the best teams in the league, but used an alternative route.

You never know how these pillocks will reach a decision.

 

[manmountainbutters]

It’s well studied debate/phenomenon. I can’t be fucked to dig out the studies, you can put it into Google or AI if you’re actually interested and not just trying to win an argument that you hadn’t really thought that much about.

Wages correlation to winning is Very Strong (r² > 90%)

Transfer net spend correlation is only moderate, mainly due to noise.




I don’t need to prove it, I’ve already stated 2 facts:

1. Our wage bill was cut under Ange

2. Our wage bill was changed to accommodate new signings with higher starting wages under Frank, and our wage bill has increased in the 2 windows since Frank arrived.

Romero’s new contract will have contributed to that as well.

Conte, the wage bill went from about 2.1m per week to 2.2m per week in his 2 windows.

Frank inherited a weekly wage bill of around 2.3m per week and with Gallagher arriving it’s up to around 2.5

So, yeah with adding a the likes of Simons and Kudus in one window, plus 2 senior peak age players like Palinha and RKM…now Gallagher…I can’t remember a Spurs coach getting backed like this before,

Our entire MO under Levy was to sign younger, lower wage players with sell on value. I think the Ndombele/Lo Celso window for Poch was the exception to that.



Nobody said it would be.

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tbf Frank has also never had the services of Kulu and Maddison, which is what, about £250k p/w combined?

The club does appear to be spending a bit more though, I agree.

This window the main issue for me is the selling of BJ. It was incredibly stupid. Really incompetent management.

 

[Shadydan]

I'm not convinced you know what "objectively" means, then

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I'm not convinced you know what the sentence 'That isn't my defence of Frank' actually means either...

 

[Shadydan]

View: https://x.com/tabuteauS/status/2018698824315736401