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Match Tottenham Hotspur v Brentford | Saturday 21st Sept | Tottenham Hotspur Stadium | 3pm

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Have to say I don't understand the "profligacy" narrative.

We've created roughly 10.3 xG this season and we've scored 9 goals. So we "should" have scored one more goal than we have.

The reason we scored more goals against Brentford than against Leicester or Newcastle wasn't because we were more clinical, it's cos we created much better chances (3.8xG vs Brentford). If anything we were just as wasteful as ever. Son was through on goal twice and didn't even take a shot, neither of which will have contributed to the xG stats.

If we're to consistently score more goals it'll come from creating better chances, like we did vs Brentford, rather than magically scoring 3 goals from 1.4xG produced as some people (and the manager) claimed we should have somehow done against Leicester.
You've answered your own doubts in this post. Son not taking a shot twice in this game isn't the only time we've not executed a good opportunity. xG is a tool that should be used in conjunction with everything else, it doesn't tell the whole story, which is essentially what you're implying.

It's interesting that you've omitted everything else I wrote in that post. Does this mean you agree?
 
Fair enough. My eyes are clearly wrong with what I was seeing at the weekend, like many others must have been.

My bad.

Tbf you weren't the only to have the impression you did. The Extra Inch guys felt the same (and about Porro and Udogie). I always think their analysis is somewhat stymied by the fact they aren't usually at the game so don't have the wider top down view of the whole pitch. But I think you were at the game - and others who were also felt what you did so who knows 🤷‍♂️ :D ?

The one thing Nathan said that did resonate with me is that Maddison's game was reminiscent of Eriksen playing on the left in the good old days.

The other thing I think is that we need two (in form) James Maddison's - one to drop deeper and play through their midfield and one to play higher and unlock the low block.

If wishes were horses etc...
 
Tbf you weren't the only to have the impression you did. The Extra Inch guys felt the same (and about Porro and Udogie). I always think their analysis is somewhat stymied by the fact they aren't usually at the game so don't have the wider top down view of the whole pitch. But I think you were at the game - and others who were also felt what you did so who knows 🤷‍♂️ :D ?

The one thing Nathan said that did resonate with me is that Maddison's game was reminiscent of Eriksen playing on the left in the good old days.

The other thing I think is that we need two (in form) James Maddison's - one to drop deeper and play through their midfield and one to play higher and unlock the low block.

If wishes had wings etc...

Maddison tended to play high left early last season. I remember him specifically pressing the ball and forcing an error in the build up to his goal in the home game against Fulham. And then a week later he finds himself high up again, laying the ball through to Johnson who sets up Sons winner against Palace.

He was definitely deeper upon return and earlier games this season. To the point where he was basically slowing play down because nothing was happening.

Against Brentford, to my eye, he looked to be pressing higher up and finding himself picking the ball up and also moving to the left side. It's also why I am not surprised he scored like he did, high up the pitch on a counter and played through.

Too often this season we've basically lined up, what feels like :

Son....... .... Solanke.......... Johnson
............ Kulusevski
Udogie.....Maddison......Porro
Bissouma
Van de Ven............ Romero
Vicario
However it seemed to like it was more like this against Brentford:

........... Son....Solanke.....Johnson
Maddison..............Kulusevski .........
.......................... Porro
Udogie.............Bentancur...............
Van de Ven.......... Romero
Vicario
It looked to me like Son was closer to Solanke. And even Johnson. Kulusevski was playing the half spaces and Porro inverted. Maddison was more a half winger, occupying spaces out wide, Udogie did invert but chose the moments. The 6 done what it usually does.

But that was sort of my theory on Ange and his second year. First year was literally DRILL DRILL DRILL that system in. Get Udogie and Porro comfortable inverting and others playing the way he wants. Second season? Hold on Udogie, you can sit a bit or play wider. Same with you Porro if you want. And he can switch and change it up depending, now he knows these players can play his system seamlessly.

Versatility amongst the roles supplied by the same players. Kulusevski can play an 8? But he can also do a job on the wing when needed. Porro and Udogie could do both inverted and overlapping now. Maddison can be instructed to play deep, but we know what he can do further forward. Son as an inside forward or a striker against certain opposition etc.
 
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You've answered your own doubts in this post. Son not taking a shot twice in this game isn't the only time we've not executed a good opportunity. xG is a tool that should be used in conjunction with everything else, it doesn't tell the whole story, which is essentially what you're implying.

It's interesting that you've omitted everything else I wrote in that post. Does this mean you agree?
Yes xG is a blunt tool, no I'm not saying it tells the whole story, especially not over the course of one game. But over the long term it's a good measure of a team's chance creation. By the end of the season our goals scored will be roughly the same as our xG created, within a few % either side.

Since Ange took over, we are roughly tracking our xG, actually slightly ahead. So no, we are not gonna suddenly start scoring buckets by being more "clinical" as he seems to think, especially not with the quality of players we have at our disposal on the right wing.

As for the rest of your post to be honest mate I found it hard to follow, no offence. But the main point about Kulu and Maddison in the middle, no, it's not quite working for me. They don't operate close enough together for my liking, there's too little combining between the two, and Kulu's advanced position forces Maddison to drop deep where he's less threatening, dribbles too much, takes too many touches and makes too risky passes.

So far this season those two in the middle has worked at home against Everton - the worst side in the division - and again at home against Brentford for about 45 minutes before Brentford started taking control of the midfield. It also worked when Kulu came on against Coventry, and for about a 15 minute spell against Newcastle.

The rest of the time it leaves us too open. Against Newcastle the lack of a proper B2B led to Joelinton running through the middle of our midfield for their second. Against Woolwich we didn't create nearly enough to justify playing two #10s. Against Leicester we didn't see them together, but the first half with Maddison and a B2B was much better than the second half and probably the best half we've played away from home in 2024.

Would I play Maddison and Kulu together in midfield at Old Trafford? Or in a game of serious importance? No.
 
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Rather than a statement I'm going to ask a question: the stats suggest that possession was much more balanced in this game and that when we won the ball back or passed it out quickly from the back we were able to break quickly with Brentford's defence heading back towards their goal. So was this and the man to man outcome that Madison mentioned in the interview that resulted in the more positive outcome? As opposed to a low block team playing us on the break / transition with no space in behind with our attack not able to find the breakthrough despite the higher possession ?

In short, yes.

As I said earlier in this thread, Ange’s football isn’t about possession per se, it isn’t about pushing the opposition back into a bus park and passing it from side to side, it’s about recovering the ball quickly and counter attacking before the opponent gets set. We do do this a lot, but our forwards bumble most of these opportunities away. And what we end up with quite a lot is the opponent setting themselves into a deep block to stop this.

Brentford play a more aggressive man to man type system, which suited us, but only because we were even more aggressive and were pretty relentless for about an hour.

Unfortunately, a lot of teams will do what Arse and Newcastle did. Which is go full bus park from the get go, and try to break on us. And sometimes it will work and sometimes it won’t, but the only way to guarantee a better chance is to upgrade our wide forwards, and R8 for ones that have more than one dimension.

To be fair, in this game, Ange did make some tactical tweaks that definitely helped as well. Porro drifted wider at times and Maddison also swapped with Son at times (not permanently, just on the hoof as the play dictated) and he (Mad) completed more dribbles than any of our players this season.
 
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Have to say I don't understand the "profligacy" narrative.

We've created roughly 10.3 xG this season and we've scored 9 goals. So we "should" have scored one more goal than we have.

The reason we scored more goals against Brentford than against Leicester or Newcastle wasn't because we were more clinical, it's cos we created much better chances (3.8xG vs Brentford). If anything we were just as wasteful as ever. Son was through on goal twice and didn't even take a shot, neither of which will have contributed to the xG stats.

If we're to consistently score more goals it'll come from creating better chances, like we did vs Brentford, rather than magically scoring 3 goals from 1.4xG produced as some people (and the manager) claimed we should have somehow done against Leicester.

Since Ange took over, we are roughly tracking our xG, actually slightly ahead. So no, we are not gonna suddenly start scoring buckets by being more "clinical" as he seems to think, especially not with the quality of players we have at our disposal on the right wing.
I think this is what most are really talking about, it's not the scuffed/missed/ballooned shots (which are always part of football); it's the crosses that never come, the shots that aren't taken, the progressive passes that aren't seen, the safe backwards pass when there's a through-ball or a chip on into the box etc. etc.

We camp in their half, but don't make that clinical pass to put someone into a scoring position. We just seem off the pace or unaware of other's positions (seen a load of *almost* clever balls). At the moment, we're the football equivalent of 'edging'.
 
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As I said earlier in this thread, Ange’s football isn’t about possession per se, it isn’t about pushing the opposition back into a bus park and passing it from side to side, it’s about recovering the ball quickly and counter attacking before the opponent gets set. We do do this a lot, but our forwards bumble most of these opportunities away. And what we end up with quite a lot is the opponent setting themselves into a deep block to stop this.

Is it really? Or is this just what we want it to be?

Genuinely looking for a tactical discussion here, not an argument.

To my mind, the way we set up in settled possession - specifically, the two fullbacks inverting and pushing right up into the #10 position - specifically leads to opposition teams sitting deep and flooding the middle, because that's where all our players are. Like here:


View: https://imgur.com/a/Z0oy9z6

Everton here are naturally going to block out the middle, and keep their players deep, because that's where all our players are. We have Porro, Son, Kulusevski all pushed up, Maddison advancing, and Odobert and Brennan high and wide on the flanks. The only players we've kept back are Romero, VDV, Bissouma, and Udogie. Often Udogie is pushed up high too, this is one of the few instances when we have a situational double pivot, but it wasn't the norm in this or most of our games.

(Incidentally Bissouma tried to pass through the middle here and gives it straight to an Everton player, because the pass isn't on and he's trying to force it. Much better for Porro to drop deep and draw a defender out.)

My point here is everyone is so high, so advanced, so narrow, that it naturally leads to teams setting up in a block against us, because that's where all our players are. If we only keep three players deep, of course teams aren't going to be committing lots of players forward, because then we can just lump it forward and instantly have an overload in their final third.

Compare that to Liverpool under Slot, or Brighton under De Zerbi: these teams specifically keep more players back, in order to draw out the opposition, bait their press, and play it quickly through the lines. There's a reason that when Spurs do that it feels like an anomaly, like against Brentford, but for RDZ's Brighton or Marseille it's a feature of every game.

I'm willing to bet this game is far more likely to be a one off, and in future games we'll be back to the slow-build-up-sideways-passing we've seen in 90% of games under this manager.
 
Three way race for the Title
Animated GIF
 
Yes xG is a blunt tool, no I'm not saying it tells the whole story, especially not over the course of one game. But over the long term it's a good measure of a team's chance creation. By the end of the season our goals scored will be roughly the same as our xG created, within a few % either side.
Agreed. 5 games into the season though is not an adequate data sample to track against. Even so, it is still only a part of the overall story. Going back to your point about Son's chances, which to my mind were gilt edged, which wouldn't even have registered in the xG, shows the flaws in basing a view solely on that xG. It was the same against Leicester and, to a lesser degree, Newcastle. Good opportunities wasted because the execution in the final third was sub par. Good opportunities to score being wasted aren't just those where the shit is poor, it would include the final ball either being poor, going to the wrong player etc. None of which would be reflected in xG.
Since Ange took over, we are roughly tracking our xG, actually slightly ahead. So no, we are not gonna suddenly start scoring buckets by being more "clinical" as he seems to think, especially not with the quality of players we have at our disposal on the right wing.
Again, I disagree. Being clinical isn't the sole preserve of the final finish. It can also be the decisiveness of the final ball, that split second where the ball is delivered as opposed to cut off. Clinical can be in the decision making, i.e. picking the right pass. We've been profligate in all of those aspects up until Saturday, and even that saw us missing a high number of opportunities in all of those aspects. They're getting better though.
As for the rest of your post to be honest mate I found it hard to follow, no offence. But the main point about Kulu and Maddison in the middle, no, it's not quite working for me. They don't operate close enough together for my liking, there's too little combining between the two, and Kulu's advanced position forces Maddison to drop deep where he's less threatening, dribbles too much, takes too many touches and makes too risky passes.
Fair point, but you can't expect them to have that "telepathic" understanding after just what, 2-3 games together? Even Maddison himself alluded to that in his post match interview. With familiarity comes that greater understanding. I think they'll grow into their roles well.
FWIW, I actually prefer Maddison in that deeper role where he has more opportunity to dictate play. I feel that's his greater strength and, long term, will be more beneficial to the team. It doesn't stop him from advancing up the pitch, and I feel it allows him to find more space as well as dictate the tempo of our play.
So far this season those two in the middle has worked at home against Everton - the worst side in the division - and again at home against Brentford for about 45 minutes before Brentford started taking control of the midfield. It also worked when Kulu came on against Coventry, and for about a 15 minute spell against Newcastle.
I'm sorry but I simply cannot agree with you stating that Brentford took control of the midfield. They had a purple patch around the hour mark for less than 10 minutes. The rest of the match we owned the midfield. As to the rest of the above, I return you to the paragraph above. They've just started working in those roles together, it's rarer than hens teeth to see any partnership just click from the off.
The rest of the time it leaves us too open. Against Newcastle the lack of a proper B2B led to Joelinton running through the middle of our midfield for their second. Against Woolwich we didn't create nearly enough to justify playing two #10s. Against Leicester we didn't see them together, but the first half with Maddison and a B2B was much better than the second half and probably the best half we've played away from home in 2024.
As above, far too early in the partnership to say it is or isn't working. Insofar as Newcastle is concerned though, using a single instance, in a 90 minute match where they never got the opportunity to do that previously, is really stretching it.
Would I play Maddison and Kulu together in midfield at Old Trafford? Or in a game of serious importance? No.
I would, so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think they have the personnel to deal with our movement and incisive passing, if we play in the same manner as we did against Brentford.

As with the previous matches, whether we win or not won't be on whether they play better than us, it will be reliant on how we execute in the final third.
 
I'm sorry but I simply cannot agree with you stating that Brentford took control of the midfield. They had a purple patch around the hour mark for less than 10 minutes. The rest of the match we owned the midfield.
We're talking about Maddison and Kulu in midfield, are we not? And yes Brentford's purple patch came after half time for about 20 minutes I'd say, at which point Ange made one change (Bissouma for Bentancur, did nothing) and then because that hadn't worked he made a second (Sarr for Brennan, moving Kulu out to the wing) and that was what reestablished our control over midfield for the rest of the game.

Sarr and Bissouma played as more of a double pivot, Kulu on the right provided more balance and an outball, Madders as a #10 (how he ended up in that advanced position to score) and control had been restored. Brentford did nothing the rest of the game and we finished the game off with a third. But in terms of Madders and Kulu in the middle, it was a good 45', no more.

As with the previous matches, whether we win or not won't be on whether they play better than us, it will be reliant on how we execute in the final third.

Whether we win at United won't be on whether they play better than us? You've lost me.

For me it's unrealistic to think we can go to Old Trafford and batter them and create 3+ xG and blow them apart. Simply doesn't happen, not even in our best days under Poch.

Whether we get a result there will come down to (1) whether we perform on the day (often we simply don't perform there and United have a habit of upping their game against us at home) (2) whether we can limit them to max 1 goal (we aren't scoring more than two there, and even that's a stretch. We know how they will play. They will look for quick balls over the top to their wings into the space our fullbacks will vacate. We need our fullbacks to play more conservatively in this one). Then it's about creating chances and taking them. But we'll get nothing there if we're not considerably tighter at the back than we have been so far.
 
Have to say I don't understand the "profligacy" narrative.

We've created roughly 10.3 xG this season and we've scored 9 goals. So we "should" have scored one more goal than we have.

The reason we scored more goals against Brentford than against Leicester or Newcastle wasn't because we were more clinical, it's cos we created much better chances (3.8xG vs Brentford). If anything we were just as wasteful as ever. Son was through on goal twice and didn't even take a shot, neither of which will have contributed to the xG stats.

If we're to consistently score more goals it'll come from creating better chances, like we did vs Brentford, rather than magically scoring 3 goals from 1.4xG produced as some people (and the manager) claimed we should have somehow done against Leicester.
True but we created better chances because we were more clinical with the execution of the execution of the situations we created chances from.

We scored 2 goals from high turnovers vs Brentford but failed to create even 1 really good chance from 7 or 8 high turnovers vs Newcastle and again zero chances from 3 or 4 high turnovers vs the scum.

Against Leicester I think we actually created and missed chances as well as not being clinical enough with dangerous situations
 
We're talking about Maddison and Kulu in midfield, are we not? And yes Brentford's purple patch came after half time for about 20 minutes I'd say, at which point Ange made one change (Bissouma for Bentancur, did nothing) and then because that hadn't worked he made a second (Sarr for Brennan, moving Kulu out to the wing) and that was what reestablished our control over midfield for the rest of the game.
It most definitely wasn't 20 minutes, I watched the full game again last night. From about the 60 minute mark they looked like gaining control, but we snuffed them out. As you say, the changes helped with that, but that doesn't negate what Maddison and Kulusevski achieved for an hour. With the intensity those 2 played at, you have to expect them to slow down. Kudos to AP for recognising that early and adjusting accordingly.
Sarr and Bissouma played as more of a double pivot, Kulu on the right provided more balance and an outball, Madders as a #10 (how he ended up in that advanced position to score) and control had been restored. Brentford did nothing the rest of the game and we finished the game off with a third. But in terms of Madders and Kulu in the middle, it was a good 45', no more.
Again, we'll have to disagree on the timeframe, but no biggy. I noted the actual time on the clock when the carved out their first real chance in the second half, it was just after 60 minutes. Up until then, the biggest take I took from those 2 was how well they hurried Brentford into rushing passes and, as a result, making mistakes that saw us recover the ball.
Whether we win at United won't be on whether they play better than us? You've lost me.
They won't play better than us if we manage the same intensity we did against Brentford, they don't have the personnel, apart from Fernandez maybe, to keep the calm you need under the sort of constant pressure we'll put them under.
For me it's unrealistic to think we can go to Old Trafford and batter them and create 3+ xG and blow them apart. Simply doesn't happen, not even in our best days under Poch.
We put 6 past them under Poch at their place, when they had a better team than they do now.
Regardless, I'm not claiming we're going to breeze past them with 3+ xG, but I do expect us to better them.
Whether we get a result there will come down to (1) whether we perform on the day (often we simply don't perform there and United have a habit of upping their game against us at home) (2) whether we can limit them to max 1 goal (we aren't scoring more than two there, and even that's a stretch. We know how they will play. They will look for quick balls over the top to their wings into the space our fullbacks will vacate. We need our fullbacks to play more conservatively in this one). Then it's about creating chances and taking them. But we'll get nothing there if we're not considerably tighter at the back than we have been so far.
So not really any different to any other game. If we perform and execute we should win. Utd don't have the defence Woolwich do, they don't even have the defence Brentford do.

Have a little faith brother, we have the tools, and I think they're improving game by game.

I fully expect that Utd fans will be more worried about what we'll do to them, than confident in what they'll do to us.
 
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Yes xG is a blunt tool, no I'm not saying it tells the whole story, especially not over the course of one game. But over the long term it's a good measure of a team's chance creation. By the end of the season our goals scored will be roughly the same as our xG created, within a few % either side.

Since Ange took over, we are roughly tracking our xG, actually slightly ahead. So no, we are not gonna suddenly start scoring buckets by being more "clinical" as he seems to think, especially not with the quality of players we have at our disposal on the right wing.

So far this season we've wasted a lot of goalscoring chances that don't show up in xG. For example if a cross is fizzed in hard and low between the defenders and the keeper, but the opposite winger didn't make a run and the centre forward has checked back, then the xG is zero. Similarly for cutbacks that go behind all our attackers.
 
Key contributing factor to that win was that we didn't give them the ball for free all day in dangerous areas (apart from vic having a wild one).

The more we can eradicate unforced handovers the more chance we will give ourselves, as we're not set up to accommodate it.

Super fine margin on it.
 
It most definitely wasn't 20 minutes, I watched the full game again last night. From about the 60 minute mark they looked like gaining control, but we snuffed them out. As you say, the changes helped with that, but that doesn't negate what Maddison and Kulusevski achieved for an hour. With the intensity those 2 played at, you have to expect them to slow down. Kudos to AP for recognising that early and adjusting accordingly.

Fair play mate. I've only watched it live so far so I'll defer to you on that one, was planning to give it a rewatch at some point this week (us long suffering fans got to milk these good performances for all they're worth ;) ) Will keep an eye out for when they had their good period how the balance of Kulu/Madddison looked in the 2nd half.

They won't play better than us if we manage the same intensity we did against Brentford, they don't have the personnel, apart from Fernandez maybe, to keep the calm you need under the sort of constant pressure we'll put them under.

We put 6 past them under Poch at their place, when they had a better team than they do now.
Regardless, I'm not claiming we're going to breeze past them with 3+ xG, but I do expect us to better them.

Under Mou I assume you mean, and they were down to 10 which is a huge caveat. I definitely look at that game as the exception rather than the rule. Usually I go into the Old Trafford games expecting absolutely nothing and still end up disappointed.
 
Is it really? Or is this just what we want it to be?

Genuinely looking for a tactical discussion here, not an argument.

To my mind, the way we set up in settled possession - specifically, the two fullbacks inverting and pushing right up into the #10 position - specifically leads to opposition teams sitting deep and flooding the middle, because that's where all our players are. Like here:


View: https://imgur.com/a/Z0oy9z6

Everton here are naturally going to block out the middle, and keep their players deep, because that's where all our players are. We have Porro, Son, Kulusevski all pushed up, Maddison advancing, and Odobert and Brennan high and wide on the flanks. The only players we've kept back are Romero, VDV, Bissouma, and Udogie. Often Udogie is pushed up high too, this is one of the few instances when we have a situational double pivot, but it wasn't the norm in this or most of our games.

(Incidentally Bissouma tried to pass through the middle here and gives it straight to an Everton player, because the pass isn't on and he's trying to force it. Much better for Porro to drop deep and draw a defender out.)

My point here is everyone is so high, so advanced, so narrow, that it naturally leads to teams setting up in a block against us, because that's where all our players are. If we only keep three players deep, of course teams aren't going to be committing lots of players forward, because then we can just lump it forward and instantly have an overload in their final third.

Compare that to Liverpool under Slot, or Brighton under De Zerbi: these teams specifically keep more players back, in order to draw out the opposition, bait their press, and play it quickly through the lines. There's a reason that when Spurs do that it feels like an anomaly, like against Brentford, but for RDZ's Brighton or Marseille it's a feature of every game.

I'm willing to bet this game is far more likely to be a one off, and in future games we'll be back to the slow-build-up-sideways-passing we've seen in 90% of games under this manager.

You make a well argued point regarding congestion in the final third. What this system underestimates, as you well point out, is the value of open spaces. If you drag all and sundry along it just stands to reason you're bringing the players who are defending them in as well. That sums up why Spurs can accumulate a big advantage in shots without always converting that advantage to goals.

I don't agree, though, that Brentwood is a one off. I look at the string of Premier League games leading up to Brentwood and see that game as the tumblers falling into place. I think that can be maintained but, as always, the quality of the opponent will be a big factor. Fortunately, the schedule in the near future isn't that bad and a good run of success will be an encouragement to the players
 
Is it really? Or is this just what we want it to be?

Genuinely looking for a tactical discussion here, not an argument.

To my mind, the way we set up in settled possession - specifically, the two fullbacks inverting and pushing right up into the #10 position - specifically leads to opposition teams sitting deep and flooding the middle, because that's where all our players are. Like here:


View: https://imgur.com/a/Z0oy9z6

Everton here are naturally going to block out the middle, and keep their players deep, because that's where all our players are. We have Porro, Son, Kulusevski all pushed up, Maddison advancing, and Odobert and Brennan high and wide on the flanks. The only players we've kept back are Romero, VDV, Bissouma, and Udogie. Often Udogie is pushed up high too, this is one of the few instances when we have a situational double pivot, but it wasn't the norm in this or most of our games.

(Incidentally Bissouma tried to pass through the middle here and gives it straight to an Everton player, because the pass isn't on and he's trying to force it. Much better for Porro to drop deep and draw a defender out.)

My point here is everyone is so high, so advanced, so narrow, that it naturally leads to teams setting up in a block against us, because that's where all our players are. If we only keep three players deep, of course teams aren't going to be committing lots of players forward, because then we can just lump it forward and instantly have an overload in their final third.

Compare that to Liverpool under Slot, or Brighton under De Zerbi: these teams specifically keep more players back, in order to draw out the opposition, bait their press, and play it quickly through the lines. There's a reason that when Spurs do that it feels like an anomaly, like against Brentford, but for RDZ's Brighton or Marseille it's a feature of every game.

I'm willing to bet this game is far more likely to be a one off, and in future games we'll be back to the slow-build-up-sideways-passing we've seen in 90% of games under this manager.


Interesting points, I really like both those coaches but I'd have rewatch a De Zerbi Brighton game, try and catch a Marseille game or a Slot game to try and weigh up the differences/nuances in build up to reply properly.

I do think Ange's ethos is pretty similar in intentions. Suck in, play through, hit speedy wide forwards in quick transition. The FB's invert into midfield to try and aid that process and create constant out ball options and triangles to help play through the press. I think the problem is, some teams will just set up in a deep block - we saw Woolwich (and most teams) do exactly the same to City that they did to us. I'm pretty sure both Brighton and Liverpool use inverted wide forwards. Guardiola likewise usually - although Doku can go both ways - and has also used inverted FB's, and has rarely used overlapping FB's.

I definitely think Brentford's tactics played a part, but we seemed to tactically prepare for this (re Maddison post match) by moving our pieces around situationally. We saw Porro pop up wider than normal, Son and Maddison interchange, with Maddison popping up in that wide left area more. And we were very intense. Even when they tried to shell into a deeper block, we found ways past and round it, largely because we were so aggressive high up, despite them playing with a back 5,

I think against more passive, reactive deep blocks are still going to cause us problems, partly due to our lack of quality, specifically 1v1 problem solving forwards, but also because the deep block frustrates most proactive teams, that's why teams do it.
 
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Have to say I don't understand the "profligacy" narrative.

We've created roughly 10.3 xG this season and we've scored 9 goals. So we "should" have scored one more goal than we have.

The reason we scored more goals against Brentford than against Leicester or Newcastle wasn't because we were more clinical, it's cos we created much better chances (3.8xG vs Brentford). If anything we were just as wasteful as ever. Son was through on goal twice and didn't even take a shot, neither of which will have contributed to the xG stats.

If we're to consistently score more goals it'll come from creating better chances, like we did vs Brentford, rather than magically scoring 3 goals from 1.4xG produced as some people (and the manager) claimed we should have somehow done against Leicester.


I wonder how xG adjust for the fact that something like 1 in 5 matches are decided by random events ie luck.
 

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