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Manager Jose Mourinho

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AberdeenYid said:
Aye, we’ve always been known for attacking football, but has that been the reality? I’ve sat through a lot of dross in my 40 years of being a supporter, with some high points, that’s for sure. But still, a lot of shite has been served up. Maybe a wee bit of “the West Ham way” about how we look at how we are regarded?

Can’t recall too many dull games when Harry was in charge, but remember a few decent thumping we took. There were a lot of matches during a Poch’s reign that made me want to poke my eyes out. Maybe it’s the recent run of matches that make it worse?

To be honest, I didn’t see much on Saturday that was different from when we played a city earlier in the season to go top. Just that when we had our opportunities with the ball, we were spectacular going forward and weren’t this time. Next time we play them, I can see this turning again and we let them come at us before destroying them on the break. It’s a glorious way to play when it works, breathless and exciting, but fucking horrendous when it doesn’t.
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Yes, I have seen dross, but I have never seen a manager at spurs play in such a horrific way intentionally. All this with some unbelievable attacking talent.
 
Tomo said:
From memory Venables, Francis, Jol, Redknapp, Poch, Hoddle, Ardiles where generally attack minded and with our often crap defences we conceded a lot but it most mostly fun to watch of a bit of a heart attack at times. I would say certainly in my lifetime we have been far more about attacking football than defensive.
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Attacking or not, we always felt like the natural home for a certain type of player - Hoddle, Gazza, Ginola, Berbatov, etc

Under the right manager Ndombele could maybe be like those players
 
theromanianjackass said:
Absolute donkey move from Levy to pay this man £15m a year and not include a mutual termination agreement in the contract in case x/y scenario fulfills.
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It's like they thought what happened at Chelsea and Man U was a success and not his fault. I've heard that before.... oh yeah, During Mourinho press conferences.

Was it even discussed during the spurs interviews? Mourino probably just took out some of his medals, a length of his shaft, and plopped them next to the "15,000,000 sign here" piece of paper.

Levy just had/has an insurmountable stonker on for him, end of.

End of the season, at best. I've lost hope we can get this clown out any sooner.

Worstly, I don't think Levy has learned anything, and we will end up with Louis Van Gaal or some complete unknown.
 
We'll continue to go from game to game hoping for an upturn to come. Then suddenly we have a few good results before we firmly land on our bums again as reality sinks in.
I think we'll beat Wolfsberger over two legs. Spam and Burnley, not sure? But if we do, it's not more than what should be expected, although in the current situation a massive upturn. Which inself shows how desperate we have become.

Please let him go.
 
Guido said:


Jose Mourinho’s familiar dance
There are five rough stages of Mourinho’s management. Each one is skipped through quickly or extended depending on the success of the job. Sometimes the second stage lasts two years, sometimes far less:

1) Mourinho is appointed. He embarks upon a charm offensive in which he praises the squad, implies that he doesn’t need many new players to make them champions and reinforces the club’s statement that he is the right man – perhaps even the best man – to achieve success. If he has had recent unsuccessful experience, he may suggest that he is a changed man.

2) Mourinho is successful. Here, all is well. Mourinho is chipper and smiley and gripes are kept to a minimum. His general air is of a successful local butcher, meeting customers with a wave and reminding them that he has the best produce in the business. The intimation (and it’s often fully justified) is that Mourinho has made the players realise that they were good enough to win titles and in doing so mande them as champion players.

3) Mourinho suffers a dip. He begins to blame individuals for their mistakes and, if the style isn’t pleasing, insists that he has told the team to play differently but that they are not listening. In this stage, Mourinho is spiky in press conferences and may make reference to other clubs as a means of managing expectations. He needs new players in key positions to complement the few champion players that he possesses.

4) Mourinho’s football falls in on itself. Mourinho’s sides become laboured in attack and are punished for their mistakes. He views this as deeply unfair, as if other managers are not forced to suffer such rotten luck or incompetence. Mourinho also changes tact: Rather than the players being good enough, they are now fully at fault and must own their mediocrity. This is where the initial insistence of their strength is key, because it presents the argument that they have previously proven themselves good enough and so are falling short of their own standards. The comparisons with other clubs increase; they have more money so what more can he do?

5) Mourinho enters self-protection mode. Everything and anyone that questions his own role in the slump is deemed guilty of failing to spot the real problems. Mourinho repeats his previous successes as proof that he is the champion and the players have not matched his standards. Individual mistakes, of which there are many, are treated with a reaction as if to say “You see what I’m having to deal with?”. The siege mentality established in stage two becomes a siege of one person: Mourinho vs the world.

On the surface, some of Mourinho’s defence stands up. Tottenham are making individual errors. Senior players are under-performing. But there are two things to explore here. The first is that mistakes at the highest level happen not because of a lack of talent but through a lack of confidence. And it’s reasonable to question whether that lack of confidence stems from players (either those who have made mistakes or their teammates) being harangued in public by their manager.

But it’s also about how Tottenham’s system that Mourinho has implemented (and if he says he’s asking them to play differently then it’s down to him to motivate them or communicate his concerns more successfully). They sit back so much and so often that individual mistakes stick out more because they are rarely atoned by attacking brilliance (see Ruben Dias’ mistake against Liverpool last weekend). If Tottenham attacked more effectively, the defensive issues would resonate far less.

And why are those mistakes happening so frequently? Might it not be because you’re more likely to get caught in possession if nobody has moved into space to receive the pass? And more likely to clear it long and cede possession rather than try and retain it because either way it just keeps coming back?

Tottenham have a pair of wonderful attacking artists who are being used to whitewash grey walls. Against Chelsea and Manchester City, just two recent examples, they have set up with a counter-attacking plan but barely bothered to counter. The only real chance on Saturday came from a free-kick.

There have been 233 matches in the Premier League this season, and so 466 ‘opportunities’ for a team to touch the ball in the opposition box. Of those 466 opportunities, only 12 times (2.6%) has a team had six touches in the box or fewer in a game. Here’s nine of those 12: Crystal Palace, Newcastle, Wolves, West Brom (twice), Southampton (twice), Fulham (twice). Tottenham account for the other three, more than any other club. No other club in the top half even features.

For a Big Six team with their attacking options (and general level of player), that’s simply not good enough. It has worked very well on occasion (Tottenham touched the ball in Southampton’s box eight times in a 5-2 win in September), but when it doesn’t it invites criticism partly because it’s not particularly good to watch and because it raises the question of whether Tottenham might be able to do a little more.

That’s exactly where Tottenham are now. Occasionally in his management he has been able to loop his typical career arc, adding in a bonus Stage 2) part way through we all believe he’s entered Stage 4). But not often. Even the Tottenham supporters who were happy to welcome a results-only manager were likely to lose patience when the results tailed off, because without them what evidence do you have that this way is the best way?
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Depressingly accurate.
 
Losing out on Europe would mean taking a far bigger financial hit than that which would occur from sacking Mourinho right now and paying out the remainder of his contract.

And yet I see him hanging around for a while yet. I imagine Levy would think he deserves a shot at the cup he's got us to the final of, at least. Which seems fair to me.

Mourinho is lucky there are no fans going at the moment. This style of football would not be tolerated by paying fans in grounds. Speaking personally when I go to Spurs it's 2/3rds of a weekend day out for me, plus the cost. I wouldn't do it right now because of the results and quality of football.
 
I'm trying my best to look at this from a neutral point of view and seeing where this all leads. The form will probably just be enough to keep Mourinho from being sacked before the end of season and Levy doesn't want to pay off another manager and start again, he's probably going to give Mourinho more of a chance than he gave Poch, probably already has to be honest. Jose style is not going to be enough for Son and he has completely sizzled out last couple months. He has stalled signing a contract and I wouldn't be surprised if Levy cashes in. Son also had a good relationship with Dele and its just probably easy for him to move on. Kane will stay another season to try and beat the Tottenham record for me. He's got more invested in the team than Son but he is probably just as fed up.

I think deep down Jose wants his own team, and there's still a lot of Poch players in the squad. Some can adapt, Lamela for example it doesn't seem to matter probably because he was injured so much with poch around. Kane is adaptable because he's the face of the club. But the big names in the team when Poch was here, these are the guys that until they're gone Jose will probably never truly have what he wants


Lloris - club captain, making mistakes. Wouldn't probably be Jose's captain.

Toby - he's aging and you can see he's being dropped. Where as Dier, a player that struggled under Poch, has Jose's support as he's less of a Poch player.

Sissoko - Jose wanted him dropped the moment he walked in as per the documentary but couldn't at the time.

This is the painful rebuild being played out, where we have to look at life beyond the players that brought us those great nights under Poch.

Jan Vert is gone. Eriksen gone. Dele basically gone. Toby declining. Rose gone. Sissoko being phased out. Winks never plays.

Son, Kane, Lloris are the last ones still in this team that were mainstays under Poch. If Jose is really going to make this team his own, next summer we need to get rid of Sissoko, Winks, Toby, Dele and unfortunately probably cash in on Son. I would prefer to replace Lloris and keep Son another season but Levy knows he risks letting the contract for Son go into a final year and selling for much less than he's worth.

If we trim the squad of all those players somehow this summer or over next two Windows, that's probably the end goal here. If we sold those 6 above I mentioned and Levy was a little more flexible on asking price then you could get over 100 million for those players still.

We have to as a club get over our depression now. Poch really got the absolute most out of players, we almost reached the summit and had the best nights over the years, we can't stay depressed like this as a club anymore. It's gone too far, we're a little like United have been but played out on rapid fashion.

Poch the cool uncle is gone, Jose the grandfather may still have a trick or two left to play but until the players buy into his way of thinking we will never really know. It may never happen and we may move on and get a new manager that gives us something to start supporting for.
 
Lilywhite9 said:
I'm trying my best to look at this from a neutral point of view and seeing where this all leads. The form will probably just be enough to keep Mourinho from being sacked before the end of season and Levy doesn't want to pay off another manager and start again, he's probably going to give Mourinho more of a chance than he gave Poch, probably already has to be honest. Jose style is not going to be enough for Son and he has completely sizzled out last couple months. He has stalled signing a contract and I wouldn't be surprised if Levy cashes in. Son also had a good relationship with Dele and its just probably easy for him to move on. Kane will stay another season to try and beat the Tottenham record for me. He's got more invested in the team than Son but he is probably just as fed up.

I think deep down Jose wants his own team, and there's still a lot of Poch players in the squad. Some can adapt, Lamela for example it doesn't seem to matter probably because he was injured so much with poch around. Kane is adaptable because he's the face of the club. But the big names in the team when Poch was here, these are the guys that until they're gone Jose will probably never truly have what he wants


Lloris - club captain, making mistakes. Wouldn't probably be Jose's captain.

Toby - he's aging and you can see he's being dropped. Where as Dier, a player that struggled under Poch, has Jose's support as he's less of a Poch player.

Sissoko - Jose wanted him dropped the moment he walked in as per the documentary but couldn't at the time.

This is the painful rebuild being played out, where we have to look at life beyond the players that brought us those great nights under Poch.

Jan Vert is gone. Eriksen gone. Dele basically gone. Toby declining. Rose gone. Sissoko being phased out. Winks never plays.

Son, Kane, Lloris are the last ones still in this team that were mainstays under Poch. If Jose is really going to make this team his own, next summer we need to get rid of Sissoko, Winks, Toby, Dele and unfortunately probably cash in on Son. I would prefer to replace Lloris and keep Son another season but Levy knows he risks letting the contract for Son go into a final year and selling for much less than he's worth.

If we trim the squad of all those players somehow this summer or over next two Windows, that's probably the end goal here. If we sold those 6 above I mentioned and Levy was a little more flexible on asking price then you could get over 100 million for those players still.

We have to as a club get over our depression now. Poch really got the absolute most out of players, we almost reached the summit and had the best nights over the years, we can't stay depressed like this as a club anymore. It's gone too far, we're a little like United have been but played out on rapid fashion.

Poch the cool uncle is gone, Jose the grandfather may still have a trick or two left to play but until the players buy into his way of thinking we will never really know. It may never happen and we may move on and get a new manager that gives us something to start supporting for.
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Good post. But for me the bottom line is nothing can start until we replace the manager. I'm far from one of those fans who never wanted Jose here either - he wasn't my choice but I thought he might have a point to prove and would have interests beyond picking up his huge salary. But I've come round to the view we cannot move forward as a club until he's gone.

TL,DR: Jose Mourinho is the roadblock to reform.
 
Good post Lilywhite9 Lilywhite9 and you managed to hit the neutrality you were looking for. Lot of good points, especially the painful rebuild bit.

I would say that Son looked delighted with life when he was converting his one on ones at the end of 2020. Definitely looks less happy now when he’s not in a purple patch. He’s probably fucking knackered too.
 
AberdeenYid said:
Good post Lilywhite9 Lilywhite9 and you managed to hit the neutrality you were looking for. Lot of good points, especially the painful rebuild bit.

I would say that Son looked delighted with life when he was converting his one on ones at the end of 2020. Definitely looks less happy now when he’s not in a purple patch. He’s probably fucking knackered too.
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I'm in complete agreement with Lilywhite9 Lilywhite9 we need a big rebuild, and it was clear to me from watching matches we had come to the end of our shelf life under Poch by the end of 2019.

The issue for me is Mourinho should not be in charge of the rebuild. Aside from our poor form and horrendous style he's never been a manager who stays longer than three years anywhere.
 
HampshireSpur said:
Good post. But for me the bottom line is nothing can start until we replace the manager. I'm far from one of those fans who never wanted Jose here either - he wasn't my choice but I thought he might have a point to prove and would have interests beyond picking up his huge salary. But I've come round to the view we cannot move forward as a club until he's gone.

TL,DR: Jose Mourinho is the roadblock to reform.
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When you consider the summer window, the rebuild was happening and if he remains, will continue to.

Hart came in to tick a HG box.
Doherty is a definite Mourinho player. Theoretically offers strong defending and attacking. A plus 6 foot right sided defender. The Irish Ivanovic. He’s not performed to the level needed, but the theory was sound.
PEH is a Mourinho player. Busy, hard, never gives up.
Bale was worth a punt, maybe not a Mourinho player, but again, doubt he had many reservations.
Same for Vinny. And a big handy plan b.
Rodon was another punt and again, another mobile but big guy.
Reggie made sense to everyone, offering strong defence and attack.

I’d say each have been effected by the season or injuries or Covid, so I’m in no rush to judge any of them completely. Honestly believe we could be a couple of big bastard centre halves short of sorting a lot of our issues out. Get them and maybe another CM for depth and we have got a strong foundation to build on.
 
theromanianjackass said:
Absolute donkey move from Levy to pay this man £15m a year and not include a mutual termination agreement in the contract in case x/y scenario fulfills.
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Guido said:


Jose Mourinho’s familiar dance
There are five rough stages of Mourinho’s management. Each one is skipped through quickly or extended depending on the success of the job. Sometimes the second stage lasts two years, sometimes far less:

1) Mourinho is appointed. He embarks upon a charm offensive in which he praises the squad, implies that he doesn’t need many new players to make them champions and reinforces the club’s statement that he is the right man – perhaps even the best man – to achieve success. If he has had recent unsuccessful experience, he may suggest that he is a changed man.

2) Mourinho is successful. Here, all is well. Mourinho is chipper and smiley and gripes are kept to a minimum. His general air is of a successful local butcher, meeting customers with a wave and reminding them that he has the best produce in the business. The intimation (and it’s often fully justified) is that Mourinho has made the players realise that they were good enough to win titles and in doing so mande them as champion players.

3) Mourinho suffers a dip. He begins to blame individuals for their mistakes and, if the style isn’t pleasing, insists that he has told the team to play differently but that they are not listening. In this stage, Mourinho is spiky in press conferences and may make reference to other clubs as a means of managing expectations. He needs new players in key positions to complement the few champion players that he possesses.

4) Mourinho’s football falls in on itself. Mourinho’s sides become laboured in attack and are punished for their mistakes. He views this as deeply unfair, as if other managers are not forced to suffer such rotten luck or incompetence. Mourinho also changes tact: Rather than the players being good enough, they are now fully at fault and must own their mediocrity. This is where the initial insistence of their strength is key, because it presents the argument that they have previously proven themselves good enough and so are falling short of their own standards. The comparisons with other clubs increase; they have more money so what more can he do?

5) Mourinho enters self-protection mode. Everything and anyone that questions his own role in the slump is deemed guilty of failing to spot the real problems. Mourinho repeats his previous successes as proof that he is the champion and the players have not matched his standards. Individual mistakes, of which there are many, are treated with a reaction as if to say “You see what I’m having to deal with?”. The siege mentality established in stage two becomes a siege of one person: Mourinho vs the world.

On the surface, some of Mourinho’s defence stands up. Tottenham are making individual errors. Senior players are under-performing. But there are two things to explore here. The first is that mistakes at the highest level happen not because of a lack of talent but through a lack of confidence. And it’s reasonable to question whether that lack of confidence stems from players (either those who have made mistakes or their teammates) being harangued in public by their manager.

But it’s also about how Tottenham’s system that Mourinho has implemented (and if he says he’s asking them to play differently then it’s down to him to motivate them or communicate his concerns more successfully). They sit back so much and so often that individual mistakes stick out more because they are rarely atoned by attacking brilliance (see Ruben Dias’ mistake against Liverpool last weekend). If Tottenham attacked more effectively, the defensive issues would resonate far less.

And why are those mistakes happening so frequently? Might it not be because you’re more likely to get caught in possession if nobody has moved into space to receive the pass? And more likely to clear it long and cede possession rather than try and retain it because either way it just keeps coming back?

Tottenham have a pair of wonderful attacking artists who are being used to whitewash grey walls. Against Chelsea and Manchester City, just two recent examples, they have set up with a counter-attacking plan but barely bothered to counter. The only real chance on Saturday came from a free-kick.

There have been 233 matches in the Premier League this season, and so 466 ‘opportunities’ for a team to touch the ball in the opposition box. Of those 466 opportunities, only 12 times (2.6%) has a team had six touches in the box or fewer in a game. Here’s nine of those 12: Crystal Palace, Newcastle, Wolves, West Brom (twice), Southampton (twice), Fulham (twice). Tottenham account for the other three, more than any other club. No other club in the top half even features.

For a Big Six team with their attacking options (and general level of player), that’s simply not good enough. It has worked very well on occasion (Tottenham touched the ball in Southampton’s box eight times in a 5-2 win in September), but when it doesn’t it invites criticism partly because it’s not particularly good to watch and because it raises the question of whether Tottenham might be able to do a little more.

That’s exactly where Tottenham are now. Occasionally in his management he has been able to loop his typical career arc, adding in a bonus Stage 2) part way through we all believe he’s entered Stage 4). But not often. Even the Tottenham supporters who were happy to welcome a results-only manager were likely to lose patience when the results tailed off, because without them what evidence do you have that this way is the best way?
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The difference is mourinho has learned from ole now , as long as you don't criticize your players and boss publicly , your job will be save
 
The thing with a rebuild is we're not going to go and spend £150m+ at the best of times let alone having had 15 months without paying customers. We are going to have to integrate Skipp, Sessegnon, Rodon, Tanganga properly and maybe 1 or 2 others. We're going to have to be really creative in the market. A total rebuild with a trust in youngsters really isnt Mourinos thing. None of his success has come with that approach and i'm not sure i want him signing players that would work for his specific needs but possibly not the manager after him. If its the summer we change so be it but giving him yet another crack next season is possibly the biggest mistake Levy could ever make. If something isn't working admit the mistake and move on.
 
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