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Ex-Spurs Player Lucas Moura

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spursfan76 said:
Ok thanks, I speak some basic portuguese and will give it a go.

If Olavo de Carvalho was pro-abortion, defended the bandits, in favour of legalizing drugs, for gender studies, (torcida pela, not sure how to translate that). Then he would be known as Marielle.

That's it. I don't know the story behind or who Marielle is/was but certainly there is a lot more to the story.
(guess it's her Marielle Franco - Wikipedia)
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I speak reasonable Brazilian Portuguese and your translation is about right. Airfixx Airfixx quote is a Twitter right wing knobhead saying that the lefties wouldn't be celebrating Olavo's death from COVID* (which I presume they are) if he was Marielle Franco.

It's Twitter left/right culture war stuff, and a footballer really shouldn't be getting involved in it. But it certainly doesn't show that Lucas supports/justifies Marielle's murder, at least not in that case


*A UK equivalent would be the celebrations around Thatcher's death.
 
Airfixx said:
Do you not think you're being particularly tabloid with your throwaway us of the word "extremist" here.......?

I mean, it's clear that you Deuterz Deuterz are completely polarized in your discussion...... You think he's an "extremist"?

......How does that in turn mesh with the actual extremists (right & left wing) in that video about Sweden?
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That's how the far left rationalize violence against groups they don't agree with. In Sweden they can attack their restrictive immigration party by attaching views on them that they actually don't have. It's quite easy to demonize someone but drawing parallels to Hitler and the Nazis. After that it's free for anyone to attack them because they're nazis, right?
Hitler was even thrown in here regarding Lucas. Look what happened to the jews and I can see some resemblance to that in Lucas views. Yea, let's look at him as a despicable Nazi.
That's extremist.
 
spursfan76 said:
That's how the far left rationalize violence against groups they don't agree with. In Sweden they can attack their restrictive immigration party by attaching views on them that they actually don't have. It's quite easy to demonize someone but drawing parallels to Hitler and the Nazis. After that it's free for anyone to attack them because they're nazis, right?
Hitler was even thrown in here regarding Lucas. Look what happened to the jews and I can see some resemblance to that in Lucas views. Yea, let's look at him as a despicable Nazi.
That's extremist.
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The only Hitler/Nazis parallel drawn was that you can vote for a party without supporting certain views, but that this still means you are endorsing these views by giving them the power of leadership. Nobody said anything about Lucas being Nazi, you've made this up as a strawman in an attempt to portray the 'real victims' as right wingers.

A very common, low level strategy which doesn't work on anyone with critical thinking skills. The real victims of prejudice are not Bolsonaro supporters. And it is not 'extremist' in the slightest to say that it is morally wrong to support a leader who has openly declared he is homophobic and proud of it.
 
Raumdeuterz said:
The only Hitler/Nazis parallel drawn was that you can vote for a party without supporting certain views, but that this still means you are endorsing these views by giving them the power of leadership. Nobody said anything about Lucas being Nazi, you've made this up as a strawman in an attempt to portray the 'real victims' as right wingers.

A very common, low level strategy which doesn't work on anyone with critical thinking skills. The real victims of prejudice are not Bolsonaro supporters. And it is not 'extremist' in the slightest to say that it is morally wrong to support a leader who has openly declared he is homophobic and proud of it.
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What does that say about the morals of Brazilian people? Must be awful. If so how can we blame Lucas for his moral faults? After all he's Brazilian.
 
spursfan76 said:
That's how the far left rationalize violence against groups they don't agree with. In Sweden they can attack their restrictive immigration party by attaching views on them that they actually don't have. It's quite easy to demonize someone but drawing parallels to Hitler and the Nazis. After that it's free for anyone to attack them because they're nazis, right?
Hitler was even thrown in here regarding Lucas. Look what happened to the jews and I can see some resemblance to that in Lucas views. Yea, let's look at him as a despicable Nazi.
That's extremist.
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You sidestepped the core question.....

You think Deuterz Deuterz is a left-wing extremist?

In turn does that make you a right-wing extremist?

I ask because; surely an overt intent to dramatise and paint people as extremists encourages the very kind of division and polarization that the right/alt. right will commonly accuse the so-called woke movement of engendering?


A knee-jerk willingness to paint opposing left/right leanings as "far left/right" and/or "extremism" is fucking poison in terms of progressive and constructive debate.
 
spursfan76 said:
What does that say about the morals of Brazilian people? Must be awful. If so how can we blame Lucas for his moral faults? After all he's Brazilian.
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Well, from what I've read on the subject Bolsonaro is less popular now than when elected (Shock horror as far right leader built on rhetoric doesn't turn out particularly well) so will probably be ousted. A lot of those people have probably had the good sense to realise their errors. But there's also going to be a large base of people who straight up agree with Bolsonaro on most issues, which would say a lot about their morals. There's also plenty who will be living in poverty and won't be particularly educated, and these are people that society has failed. Someone like Lucas (extremely wealthy/privileged, living in a Western nation) wouldn't fall in to that category.

But regardless, I'm not saying Lucas is an awful person if he's a Bolsonaro supporter. I have said it makes me think less of him if it's the case, and that's fine. Again, you're allowed to form judgements on people based on political views. If someone is a passionate supporter of what Bolsonaro represents, then they have very different values to me as a person, and I will contest their values. Not with violence but by being clear that I don't view LGBT rights as secondary, and I think parties who question said rights should never be given any kind of power or responsibility.
 
Airfixx said:
You sidestepped the core question.....

You think Deuterz Deuterz is a left-wing extremist?

In turn does that make you a right-wing extremist?

I ask because; surely an overt intent to dramatise and paint people as extremists encourages the very kind of division and polarization that the right/alt. right will commonly accuse the so-called woke movement of engendering?


A knee-jerk willingness to paint opposing left/right leanings as "far left/right" and/or extremism is fucking poison in terms of progressive and constructive debate.
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I see your point. It's premature calling him an extremist just as it is premature to call moura an extremist.
 
spursfan76 said:
i'd suggest that you go through the last few pages again to see what sort of views were attached to him.
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I said he endorsed these views, which he has. If you vote for a proud, open homophobe, you are saying to the world that you don't think being homophobic is a deal breaker for you. That doesn't necessarily mean you're a homophobe personally, but it certainly means that other people (particularly those directly impacted by homophobia) can judge you for casting that vote.

It doesn't make Lucas an extremist, it does mean he's made a disappointing choice, to me at least. I wouldn't vote for somebody who was openly prejudiced even if their other policies aligned with my own. Those kind of views are a total deal-breaker for me when it comes to politics. I will say again though that I've been very careful to say that the tweets Lucas liked/the true extent of his support for Bolsonaro seems hazy at best, so we're working with a lot of hypotheticals here.
 
Airfixx said:
I've read it all in real time.... Save me the bother... Who do you have in mind?

(I'm talking people here; not the twitter mob.)
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Then this is really not an issue if we all agree there is nothing extremist about this whole thing. If so, I can only agree. Until someone express something to the contrary, we can all agree that supporting Bolsanaro is not extreme, or even controversial, in any way and we can forget about this entire thing.
You have to understand Brazil to understand why Bolsanaro is (or was) so popular.
 
spursfan76 said:
Then this is really not an issue if we all agree there is nothing extremist about this whole thing. If so, I can only agree. Until someone express something to the contrary, we can all agree that supporting Bolsanaro is not extreme, or even controversial, in any way and we can forget about this entire thing.
You have to understand Brazil to understand why Bolsanaro is (or was) so popular.
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I've not asked you about Bolsanaro.....

I asked you who here called Lucas an "extremist"? ..........You said people had; therefore you shouldn't be scared to say whom.
 
Raumdeuterz said:
Bolsonaro has previously stated he would be incapable of loving a gay son, and that’s just the tip of a horrible iceberg. If you think someone who supports a person like that should be free from judgement, then you’re wrong.
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It's a horrible can of worms though. On the matter of attitudes to gays or trans people that you mention here, it's highly likely that a devout practising Muslim player holds views which could well be pretty similar to Bolsonaro's. If they (or Moura or someone with a fundamentalist approach to Christianity or any other faith) don't express them then you'll never know.

Isn't it the case that the line is crossed when that player says "I THINK..." and then goes on to say something clearly homophobic, anti-Semitic or whatever?

Imagine we sign or are on the verge of signing an American player who at some point expresses support for Trump, or a Muslim who is revealed to have close ties to the Muslim Brotherhood. I'd be very disappointed of course but I'm not at all sure that in and of itself it's enough to not sign them or seek to sell them at the first opportunity.

It's like when we were linked to bringing in Gatuso. He had SAID unacceptable things, expressed them as his beliefs, not "merely" kept his unpleasant views to himself. If he'd just said that he supported whoever the most popular current neo-fascist figure is in Italy, would that have caused the resulting shitshow on Twitter etc?

Or if Reguilón came out and expressed his full support for the far-right Vox party in Spain. Like I say, I'd never look at him in the same way, I'd delete my fantasy of meeting up with him one day in the town where he was born, four miles down the road from me immediately, but would I want him sold?

Like I say, it's a bit of an ethical quagmire.
 
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Airfixx said:
I've not asked you about Bolsanaro.....

I asked you who here called Lucas an "extremist"? ..........You said people had; therefore you shouldn't be scared to say whom.
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Just drop it. You are making stuff up now or you have misinterpreted something. I said that every time someone points out hypocrisy, a few extremists will be butthurt. I did not say that those extremists were on this forum. If I did, where is it?

Just look at the tweet you shared. That is a prime example of people wanted to drag others through the mud by misinterpreting the whole thing.
 
spursfan76 said:
Just drop it. You are making stuff up now or you have misinterpreted something. I said that every time someone points out hypocrisy, a few extremists will be butthurt. I did not say that those extremists were on this forum. If I did, where is it?
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No I'm not.

"I see your point. It's premature calling him [Raumdauterz] an extremist just as it is premature to call moura an extremist."

When I asked who... You said look above.....

So I asked again.....

spursfan76 said:
Just look at the tweet you shared. That is a prime example of people wanted to drag others through the mud by misinterpreting the whole thing.
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All this proves is that by calling Raumdauterz an "extremist" (*) you are just as bad as the twitter throng you're condemning.

(*Granted you've since conceded you shouldn't have done; but at that point shouldn't you be able to see the irony of you carrying on chastising the parrallel end of the same spectrum?)
 
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spursfan76 said:
Ok thanks, I speak some basic portuguese and will give it a go.

If Olavo de Carvalho was pro-abortion, defended the bandits, in favour of legalizing drugs, for gender studies, (torcida pela, not sure how to translate that). Then he would be known as Marielle.

That's it. I don't know the story behind or who Marielle is/was but certainly there is a lot more to the story.
(guess it's her Marielle Franco - Wikipedia)
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I can help you. Marielle Franco was a political activist and congressperson in Rio de Janeiro, he standend for LGBT's rights and against the private militas that control most of the favelas in Rio. He was murdered for his political convictions probably by a militia group, that's extremely close to the Bolsonaro family. In the investigation was even discovered that hours beforte the crime one of the killers visited the house of one of the miltia's group, that happened to be at the same private condominium Bolsonaro family lives and he was supposed to franchise entry for the killer (stated by the doorman in his testimonial).

If you get deeper in this investigation you will find a lot of sad coincidences envolving Bolsonaro's family in this case and since it happened the majority of his supporters enganged in campaing to defame Marielle. By the way I see nothing wrong with legalize abortation, drugs and gender studies.

Olavo de Carvalho, was a mastermind behind the Bolsonaro's rally for president, he basically created most of the far-right wing ideology behind Bolsonaro's. He was like a guru for the base of the president. I won't give my opinion on him as you probably can take you own conclusion by a rapid search. I can say that was only the second time Bosonaro decreed official mourining since the start of his government and he seemed more shake than with his mom's death, that happened a week before.

PS: When I said murdered by his political convictions it's probably partialy true, the reason is also economic as the miltia groups had severeal illegal business in the comunities he was becoming more popular. It's also said that he will run for a chair in the senate, against president's son Flavio, that, guess what, now is a senator.
 
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Airfixx said:
No I'm not.

"I see your point. It's premature calling him [Raumdauterz] an extremist just as it is premature to call moura an extremist."

When I asked who... You said look above.....

So I asked again.....



All this proves is that by calling Raumdauterz an "extremist" (*) you are just as bad as the twitter throng you're condemning.

(*Granted you've since conceded you shouldn't have done; but at that point shouldn't you be able to see the irony of you carrying on chastising the parrallel end of the same spectrum?)
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Yes, I agreed with you that it is unnecessary to talk about extremism so what are you trying to prove? Seems like you have an axe to grind here.
 
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