Manager Thomas Frank

[latman]

It’s possible to think Frank is massively underperforming , to at the same time think ange was way out of his depth and had to be replaced and to also think the squad isn’t as good as it should be.

I was happy with Frank appointment but he’s been a massive let down so far, I’m not even looking at the results as much ,it’s more that I don’t see any patterns of play or any clear understanding of how we’re trying to play football. Playing for set pieces seems to be his only way of trying to break a team down, this would be unacceptable at any top 10 side let alone a team trying to be in the top 5.

I’m completely uninspired by his pressers, he’s putting way too much emphasis on “duels”. We could have won every 50/50 yesterday it still wouldn’t have helped us play out of the back and create any clear cut chances. He has to take a real look at his methods and how he’s setting us up otherwise he won’t be here very long. A bad performance at home to Fulham next week and things will get very very toxic.

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That for me is the problem right there. There is very little evidence that we're working on attacking patterns of play with pass and move.

I mean that's what we all watch football for.

I'm very disappointed as well. I get he needed to sort the defense but our whole approach is extremely negative with little emphasis on constructing attacks with good attacking football.

I'm also baffled as to why he thinks this would inspire the fans?

The comment about finishing 17th last season after the game yesterday was alarming.

Like he's saying he has inherited a squad that is of relegation quality and he's doing his best.

Of course he needs more time but we all know how this ends if he doesn't change the approach.

On his appointment he talked about being brave and taking risks and linked that to the Club motto.

I mean this is literally the polar opposite.

The alarm bells are getting louder that's for sure.

 

[manmountainbutters]

I find it funny that you can lose 22 league games in a season finish just above the relegation zone and some fans want you to stay. You get a new manager and the same fans want him sacked when you're sitting 9th after 12 games. I don't know what people really expected to happen with this squad that is so used to losing week in week out.

He does however need to change his outlook within this squad. I don't think there is enough mobility,drive and creativity with Palinha and bentancur sitting there and we're just getting boxed in and dispossessed as we're technically deficient in deep midfield roles. I'd suggest persevering with Bergvall in that role, and possibly Gray and roll with the mistakes young players will make if at times it allows us to break a press and be able to mount meaningful attacks.

We need more flair and creativity on the pitch not less imo. We need to make the best of what we have now until January and start creating more open play opportunities because it is getting a bit worrying for me. He hasn't got the balance right yet but I think we can be solid while adding a bit more flair in forward positions.

Vicario
Porro Romero Vdv Udogie
Palinha
Bergvall Sarr
Kudus Striker Simons

Vicario
Porro Romero Vdv Udogie
Bergvall Palinha
Johnson kudus Simons
Striker

Vicario
Porro Romero Vdv Udogie
Bergvall Palinha Sarr
Kudus Striker Simons

All of these you could have certain players switched around say Simons 10 Johnson Left wing etc but there's alot more mobility and threat there whilst having a solid defence and a good holding midfielder. We must be a bit braver in our approach especially at home.

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We are short of a proper no8 playmaker. Kulu coming back should help a lot I will say. If we cld get him back, and Toney in Jan, then at least we have much better weapons.

 

[Phomesy]

Whats an ange deranger?

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It should be fairly obvious in and of itself but here's a perfect example below:

We had Ange for two seasons, one of if not the most inept manager the PL has ever seen.

The standard of this squad is laughable BUT Ange probably made them even worse during his tenure.

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The numbers tell us that when Ange Postecoglou had his starting Back 5 available he had Spurs at an Expected points average that would have us Top 5 (which he reached in his first season of course).

In the first 12 games of last season, with the back 5 pretty much available, not only were we 6th but our xG and xGA numbers were tracking much better than that. I've posted them in the thread - feel free to look them up.

So Ange Derangement is people like existenzrippchen saying that a manager who managed to get this squad (which he himself acknowledges is SHIT) tracking Top 5 is also, somehow, "the most inept, manager the PL has ever seen".

That is deranged. Completely and utterly deranged. The evidence suggests that, far from being "The most inept manager the PL has ever seen" - Ange Postecoglou was almost certainly overachieving with the squad at his disposal.

Now, people may wish to say the injuries that completely derailed our PL season last year were the fault of Postecoglou himself. I'm not unsympathetic to that take BUT I'm just looking at the numbers when he had his players available. And all I see is Top 5 xP and a European Trophy.

But also he lost 22 games and finished 17th so was rightly sacked. That is a normal take to have.

I just warned everyone like the Deranged existenzrippchen that their derangement was setting them up for a very quick reality check when WHOEVER came in next had to deal with our meh squad.

And so it is turning out. Now the deranged knives are out for Frank - missing the point yet again. Imo.

 

[manmountainbutters]

Tactically Frank is getting it wrong, very wrong.

There are many flaws within this squad but I think the biggest one is the limited ball players we have in MF. Because of that we:-

- Cannot play through a press
- Cannot dominate a game in MF
- Therefore, should not be setting the team up to play SOOO deep when we know, due to the limitations of our players, that we cannot get out
- Palhinha and Sarr can press very effectively, Bentancur can press, Kudus can press, Richy is poor but works hard - why are we not doing it?
- We were pragmatic against both PSG and City but still pressed with real aggression and made it tough for them. We showed none of that ambition against Chelsea or Woolwich?
- If you look at the Woolwich side yesterday, the keeper is great with his feet and I quite like timber as a player, but I wouldn’t say their back 4 are incredible ball players. Why didn’t we try to make it hard for them?
- And if we did press high, they didn’t have a lot of threat in behind did they? Saka is quick but Merino, Trossard and Eze aren’t exactly electric compared to our back 4.

I was hoping he’d have learned something from Chelsea but there was no evidence of that yesterday.

I like Frank as a bloke and really want him to succeed, but as a fan we’re not asking a new manager to have all the answers, just to have a plan and a vision we can see evidence of on the pitch. That’s completely missing right now.

You play this way and don’t get good results, you only get one outcome.

Must do better, and quickly.

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Agreed.

Woolwich are way ahead of us, but based on the starting line ups yesterday it should have been much closer, and that is on Frank

 

[Phomesy]

Both this season and last season have had some terrible performances.

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Yep. We can completely agree on that.

 

[kingdawson]

Nothing ridiculous about that if you're watching the football...I'm going by what I see, these players look bored and I know you're doing your utmost to defend Frank because you've backed him so much but you should probably stop lying to yourself in this instance.

And you should probably notice a pattern, I'm backing Frank just like I backed Ange, I generally back all my managers, doesn't mean I can't call him out - just like Ange I want Frank to do better and stick around, I criticised Ange plenty of times btw.

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What you're saying is not true. Sure there may be instances of you criticising Ange but the majority of the time you were defending the indefensible so much so that you actually apologised for the way you continuously posted to get a reaction.

Here you are making concerted efforts to be negative towards Frank and he's not been here half a year. I don't care about your other posts which at least have factual information/evidence to back your claims but the post about the players being bored is based on absolutely nothing but an opinion. You're giving off the impression that the players are fed up off him based on nothing.

 

[Aphex]

My hunch when we were linked with Frank was that he wasn't the one for us. I never watched Brentford, and I watched them a lot, and thought the guy was a special manager. I was just so happy at the time to see Ange sacked and to get anyone but Ange.

When I look at Bournemouth in comparison, I see Iraola as being a potential special manager.

Frank had the likes of Wissa and Mbuemo and Toney yet never finished higher than midtable. Now yeah there is no doubt he did a great job at Brentford, but is he a manager who is special? who can go to a big club and take them on to greater heights?

On the evidence at Brentford you would have to say no.

There is absolutely no doubt our squad is shit. There is far too much reliance on shit kids who have proved nothing like Odobert.

But it is Frank's decision to play two plodders in CM. I said 2 months ago Bentancur and Palinha simply does not work. There is no pace and dynamism in there, or energy. We play like West Ham with two old slow CMS. In the PL it does not work.

The reality is the club need to sign a proper top class CM, (we need two really), and a top class LW and a Striker.

Bentancur is dog shit. Palhinha is DM specialist. And Sarr and Bergvall have proved nothing to be relied upon in the PL.

SO the squad does need serious work.

However, Frank is also making a mess. There is no excuse to send a team out who can't lay a glove on Chelsea and Woolwich, who don't even look motivated. There is serious problems with the motivation levels of our squad, the mentality. Absolutely. But that is on the manager to get that right.

At the end of the day, the football is dire. We are posting record breaking low XG in games. And honestly, for me, I just don't see where Frank takes this team. People say give him time, but I just don't know what a great Frank team is supposed to look like.

There is no identity. It really does remind me of Nuno's tenure, but without Kane and Son.

It's neevr too early to sack a manager. I don't want to see us waste two full seasons like we did with Ange. I can't put up with another load of dross, that will be 4 years of shit. Life is too short for that.

It was by now when I realised Ange was a fraud, and I was proven right on that. I don't think Frank is a fraud, he's far more competent that Ange, but I fear this job is just the wrong fit. That's it. The job is too big for him and we need someone who can imprint a style of play that can take this club to the top in 5 or 6 years, or at least challenge.

It won't happen with Frank. Bring in Glasner or Iraola. I don't care if the style of football is more attacking or more balanced. I just want to see enjoyable wins and players and tactics that make sense.

Palace look so well drilled and they are a really good side. Same with Bouremouth. People say give Frank time, I don't see him taking us to that point.

 

[Hampshire Spur]

Yeah was very similar the the end of Conte era yesterday, where we had no out and just dropping deeper and deeper offering nothing in return.

The Bayern friendly at start of season was exactly the same and should have been a big caution to Frank when playing that way.

This never resinates well among us spurs fans, we either usually throw enough back or have a maverick to get us out the shit.

Unfortunatley our maverick is Richarlison.

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That's one thing I like about richarlison. Has an edge. But talent wise not what we need.

 

[Darnswim 🇦🇱]

We are short of a proper no8 playmaker. Kulu coming back should help a lot I will say. If we cld get him back, and Toney in Jan, then at least we have much better weapons.

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Bergvall is right there. I don't know why we keep the likes of him and Gray on the bench. If we are going to lose, we might as well give our talent some proper playing time in order for them to develop for tomorrow.

 

[manmountainbutters]

Bergvall is right there. I don't know why we keep the likes of him and Gray on the bench. If we are going to lose, we might as well give our talent some proper playing time in order for them to develop for tomorrow.

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We should play Bergvall more I agree. But he isn't what I'm talking about. He doesn't create enough. And he does put himself about, but he's not enough of a cunt.

 

[Sparx100]

Absolutely, but you don’t spent £40m on a talent. That was most of our transfer budget.

When you stump out that kind of money, I’d at least expect a player that’s going to make a difference. £40m on a midfielder that’s not ready or able to play in midfield is a massive misfire.

Bergvall, Sarr, etc etc. yeah, lower fees, I understand. But not Gray.

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That's probably a result of inept scouting, not having a stabilised management team and looking for a bit of luck without having to buy premium.

 

[Phomesy]

We are, underlying metrics-wise, worse than we were last year under Ange at the same point in the season.

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Far, far worse.

And I might be wrong but I don't think Frank is a "worse" manager than Postecoglou. He's having to push the same shit up the same hill. But his style is more anti-thetical to "the Tottenham Way". So he will have a harder time of it.

Frank's best performance for mine this season was the 0-2 loss to Villa. Sure we lost to two worldies but we looked so good and compact in defence and built a platform that any half decent attack should win the game from.

I was hoping that was the platform being built - and hope we can get back to it.

 

[Darnswim 🇦🇱]

We should play Bergvall more I agree. But he isn't what I'm talking about. He doesn't create enough. And he does put himself about, but he's not enough of a cunt.

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He can develop. He is a good ball carrier, and has a decent eye for a pass as well. Let alone the fact that he's still just a kid. We keep persisting with a finished Bentancur (who was really good before that Cash incident) while Bergvall gets limited opportunities.

 

[manmountainbutters]

My hunch when we were linked with Frank was that he wasn't the one for us. I never watched Brentford, and I watched them a lot, and thought the guy was a special manager. I was just so happy at the time to see Ange sacked and to get anyone but Ange.

When I look at Bournemouth in comparison, I see Iraola as being a potential special manager.

Frank had the likes of Wissa and Mbuemo and Toney yet never finished higher than midtable. Now yeah there is no doubt he did a great job at Brentford, but is he a manager who is special? who can go to a big club and take them on to greater heights?

On the evidence at Brentford you would have to say no.

There is absolutely no doubt our squad is shit. There is far too much reliance on shit kids who have proved nothing like Odobert.

But it is Frank's decision to play two plodders in CM. I said 2 months ago Bentancur and Palinha simply does not work. There is no pace and dynamism in there, or energy. We play like West Ham with two old slow CMS. In the PL it does not work.

The reality is the club need to sign a proper top class CM, (we need two really), and a top class LW and a Striker.

Bentancur is dog shit. Palhinha is DM specialist. And Sarr and Bergvall have proved nothing to be relied upon in the PL.

SO the squad does need serious work.

However, Frank is also making a mess. There is no excuse to send a team out who can't lay a glove on Chelsea and Woolwich, who don't even look motivated. There is serious problems with the motivation levels of our squad, the mentality. Absolutely. But that is on the manager to get that right.

At the end of the day, the football is dire. We are posting record breaking low XG in games. And honestly, for me, I just don't see where Frank takes this team. People say give him time, but I just don't know what a great Frank team is supposed to look like.

There is no identity. It really does remind me of Nuno's tenure, but without Kane and Son.

It's neevr too early to sack a manager. I don't want to see us waste two full seasons like we did with Ange. I can't put up with another load of dross, that will be 4 years of shit. Life is too short for that.

It was by now when I realised Ange was a fraud, and I was proven right on that. I don't think Frank is a fraud, he's far more competent that Ange, but I fear this job is just the wrong fit. That's it. The job is too big for him and we need someone who can imprint a style of play that can take this club to the top in 5 or 6 years, or at least challenge.

It won't happen with Frank. Bring in Glasner or Iraola. I don't care if the style of football is more attacking or more balanced. I just want to see enjoyable wins and players and tactics that make sense.

Palace look so well drilled and they are a really good side. Same with Bouremouth. People say give Frank time, I don't see him taking us to that point.

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Agree with a lot of what you say, but I still there is a chance Frank takes us forward, so I would back him and keep him if he gets us into the European places. Otherwise, get rid. Our squad is shite, but should be top 8.

 

[Phomesy]

I stated not you personally. And what I'm highlighting is the hypocrisy of wanting a manger that made losing a habit here to Stay but yet a manager that has had 4 months and done no worse vs Woolwich and chelsea than the previous one to go. Like I said there was more performances like the one yesterday last season such as Liverpool away and at home in the league,Woolwich at home crumbling from 2-0 up at Brighton galatasaray away etc off the top of my head.

Crystal palace and Ipswich had a win a piece in their first 18 games combined both of those victories happened to be against us. So as much as I'll accept there's things Frank has to do to improve what's going on let's not pretend he's doing any worse than ange from last year. And if he gets the whole of last season after that then Frank definitely deserves more time than what he's currently being afforded by some.

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Apologies - you did stipulate that.

I completely agree that Frank deserves more time fwiw - but then I said the same thing about Tim Sherwood so what the fuck do I know

 

[Phomesy]

Football these days is too data driven. Frank and Lange are data driven apparently. I couldnt give a fuck about XG in games. You go out to play, express your talent. Maradona, pele, messi and other great players from past didnt have all this xg data driven bollox. Even sky have some geeks on who probably cant kick a ball straight. The game is about talent.

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[Shadydan]

What you're saying is not true. Sure there may be instances of you criticising Ange but the majority of the time you were defending the indefensible so much so that you actually apologised for the way you continuously posted to get a reaction.

Here you are making concentrated efforts to be negative towards Frank and he's not been here half a year. I don't care about your other posts which at least have factual information/evidence to back your claims but the post about the players being bored is based on absolutely nothing but an opinion. You're giving off the impression that the players are fed up off him based on nothing.

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Concentrated efforts indeed

I’m looking at the players’ mannerisms and body language — you’re right, I don’t have hard evidence, but come on, football is literally a sport built on speculation. Everyone in this thread does the exact same thing every day. Practically every post is someone guessing, assuming or interpreting what they think is happening.

You watched the match yesterday, right? What did you see that made you think the players are happy or playing for the manager? We find the football boring as fuck so is it so surprising that our players would find it boring as well? The end of the Chelsea match were our captain and Spence dismissed the coach spoke volumes, they're not happy with something about him or the style IMO, to do that in public was kinda damming.

And are you really this bothered about having a personal back-and-forth online over something I have or haven't said about our manager a year ago??? Is this genuinely what you’re focusing on? That’s a you problem, not a me problem. Maybe spend a bit less time obsessing over my comments and a bit more time actually watching the football, mate.

 

[TheSpurEst]

I mean quite a lot has been told and discussed about our forward line so far. Which I get - Richie just cannot keep the ball in dangerous areas to save his life. Not his game at all. And wingers level. Oh well, let's not get the moods even lower than they are.

And other thing that has been discussed a lot is duo of Palhinha-Bentancur. Most said about this pair is also true - this cannot go on in similar fashion.

But regarding one thing I have not seen enough honest reflection. NO REAL TOP LEVEL PASSING CM IN THE SQUAD. I was screaming in the end of transfer window that we have huge freaking gap in our squad but people did not listen. And I bet even now some are shutting their eyes and putting fingers to ears to scream "I cant hear you. I cant hear you". This does not solve the problem though.

Bentancur has his days where he fights a lot and helps to pass the ball around. But most of the evenings he just is not even close to needed level in terms of distribution.
Sarr is awesome player in his own right. Really good without the ball. Good running, covers ground. But he is not an elite passer or physical monster to keep the ball all on his own.
Bergvall is top level talent that seems to have courage and footballing brain. But he is not really consistently on that level yet to pull the strings in middle of the pitch.
Gray seems to have a really good footballing brain and I like the kid, but Frank rather keeps failing with Bentancur than ever trying him out there.

So let's stop pretending like we have loads of midfield options. Or I mean - we have the numbers but we don't have required quality. We need TWO players so extremely badly in start of January window- top level passing CM (someone similar in skillset to Tonali) and top level LW (someone similar or straight up Semenyo who can score and assist on his own).

Both are equally needed. But just LW alone does not solve too much. Cause just look back at our recent games and tell me - who and how is supposed to find the attacking players in promising positions? Or are we seriously just putting all hope to Romero and VdV to pass it out from defense to Xavi upfield ?!?! That is absolute madness, nothing less.

 

[existenzrippchen]

It should be fairly obvious in and of itself but here's a perfect example below:



The numbers tell us that when Ange Postecoglou had his starting Back 5 available he had Spurs at an Expected points average that would have us Top 5 (which he reached in his first season of course).

In the first 12 games of last season, with the back 5 pretty much available, not only were we 6th but our xG and xGA numbers were tracking much better than that. I've posted them in the thread - feel free to look them up.

So Ange Derangement is people like existenzrippchen saying that a manager who managed to get this squad (which he himself acknowledges is SHIT) tracking Top 5 is also, somehow, "the most inept, manager the PL has ever seen".

That is deranged. Completely and utterly deranged. The evidence suggests that, far from being "The most inept manager the PL has ever seen" - Ange Postecoglou was almost certainly overachieving with the squad at his disposal.

Now, people may wish to say the injuries that completely derailed our PL season last year were the fault of Postecoglou himself. I'm not unsympathetic to that take BUT I'm just looking at the numbers when he had his players available. And all I see is Top 5 xP and a European Trophy.

But also he lost 22 games and finished 17th so was rightly sacked. That is a normal take to have.

I just warned everyone like the Deranged existenzrippchen that their derangement was setting them up for a very quick reality check when WHOEVER came in next had to deal with our meh squad.

And so it is turning out. Now the deranged knives are out for Frank - missing the point yet again. Imo.

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Oh no dont worry, two things can be true at the same time.
Also I am not outing Frank, why should I? He has a good record and needs time, he will be alright. I worry about the players which Ange might have deemed to be of the necessary level for the club. But as it is never clearly communicated who is responsible, I am not judging my opinion on Ange from player recruitment.

2 years have passed since that Ange whitepaper 12 game run. Let it go.

And if I am a deranger I dont need to go into too much detail for a cultist:

What are the shortest managerial reigns in Premier League history?

As Ange Postecoglou departs Nottingham Forest after 39 days, we look at how his tenure ranks among the briefest managerial stints

www.premierleague.com

Sorry, should have said joint-2nd most inept PL manager along with a few other wet farts, after Frank de Boer in number one. Because unlike Frank, Ange never had a proven PL track record (let alone enough experience...) and is now out of a job AGAIN. And I am pretty confident he will never coach another club of any relevance in world football ever again.

He can be lucky his second season is not considered in these articles.

 

[McCOYS]

Before Frank was employed I wrote on the forum somewhere, don't remember where exactly, when he was being connected with the job, that if I was in his position I'd stay at Brentford, he had quite a cushy number there relatively speaking, he was liked by the supporters, the board seemed pleased with him, he had no great pressure and I suspect finishing mid-table was acceptable to all involved with the club.

I think our club has overspent on average players, Frank has to turn that expenditure into success.

It's arguably a near impossible task, but as the season continues the performances aren't improving, the team doesn't appear to be completely fighting to win the ball, and some of the forward passing seems half hearted.

I've convinced myself through speculation that Venkatesham, Lange, and whoever else have been in meetings, and raising concerns with one another about how things are going on the field of play, in training, dressing room etc.