100% Angeball, or adapt during the game? Which are you?

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View: https://x.com/ohsnapthfc/status/1779891806152413304

Quite literally one of the best predictions ever.


People would have happily accepted the big defeat if we were playing the same football we did early on, but on a regular basis. The week to week quality of the football we're playing has been average to poor, despite one game a week and having an almost entirely fit squad of late.

It is mostly not enjoyable. So when you combine that with getting whipped 4-0 by an injury struck Newcastle team who have Emile Krafth and Elliot Anderson starting for them, the fanbase naturally aren't very happy. Shock.
 
People would have happily accepted the big defeat if we were playing the same football we did early on, but on a regular basis. The week to week quality of the football we're playing has been average to poor, despite one game a week and having an almost entirely fit squad of late.

It is mostly not enjoyable. So when you combine that with getting whipped 4-0 by an injury struck Newcastle team who have Emile Krafth and Elliot Anderson starting for them, the fanbase naturally aren't very happy. Shock.
100% this.

Contrast reaction to the Newcastle thumping to the Chelsea thumping.
 
People would have happily accepted the big defeat if we were playing the same football we did early on, but on a regular basis. The week to week quality of the football we're playing has been average to poor, despite one game a week and having an almost entirely fit squad of late.

It is mostly not enjoyable. So when you combine that with getting whipped 4-0 by an injury struck Newcastle team who have Emile Krafth and Elliot Anderson starting for them, the fanbase naturally aren't very happy. Shock.

They seemed to cheer up after the Woolwich result though
 
Ange played a suicidal high line against our rivals with 9 men AND Eric Dier.
People talk about how stubborn Jose and Conte were but fail to fully appreciate the levels of stubbornness exhibited by Ange and were instead engulfed in a level of euphoria (when things were going well) that they intentionally ignored the obvious.

My post at the early parts of this thread stands. I refuse to accept stupidity just because its something different to the norm we have experienced previously.

imho continuing to start Maddison in the middle is coming into the negligence level/territory. He's watching us get absolutely bossed on an almost weekly basis (with Maddisons complete lack of contribution in an attacking and defensive sense being a key reason for this) and just doesn't react until he absolutely has to.
 
He's watching us get absolutely bossed on an almost weekly basis (with Maddisons complete lack of contribution in an attacking and defensive sense being a key reason for this) and just doesn't react until he absolutely has to.

v Forest > 2 x subs at HT = WIN.

Not the first time he's done similar and/or won a match with his subs.
 
To the point they almost forgot about the Newcastle result.

Did they? I don’t see a lot of people forgetting on here.

It’s been a little while since the result and yeah, I’m sure a rival defeat has lightened the mood. People still don’t seem as enamoured with Ange though so it’s had longer lasting effects.
 
Did they? I don’t see a lot of people forgetting on here.

It’s been a little while since the result and yeah, I’m sure a rival defeat has lightened the mood. People still don’t seem as enamoured with Ange though so it’s had longer lasting effects.

Yeah definately lightened the mood in the fanbase.

Seems like the narrative now is as long as Woolwich don't win people will be happy with Europa and seemingly forgetting the problems we have, just my perception.

I did say before that fans happiness is intrinsically linked to their rival's failures and that's with all fans not just Spurs.
 
I didn't want to make this post, this is quite amateur-ish analysis of the highlights in the Newcastle game, and some quick overview of the Forest and Brentford games, but bear with me.

So this is one of the chances that Newcastle created.


4wlGmx2.png

We are in possession, Newcastle keeps their back four consistent and organized, with their CMs covering Son and Maddison. This means that their back four don't have to break that structure and leave gaps behind.

hvLFYLP.png

We're still in possession here, but look at our structure. We have six players around the ball, no one creating spaces, no one between the lines and more importantly, this can be easily dealt with by less Newcastle players. This ends up with Newcastle recovering the ball in the crowded area, and look what happens next.

kYdU1CH.png

Our CBs have no one to mark, they sit narrow as Isak has dropped deep to receive the ball, while 4 of our players in the right corner are trying to transition back to defence.

gxCghQf.png

Newcastle have 4 players against our 5, big space between Romero and Porro on the right flank, also big space between VDV and Udogie.

UW1G4it.png

VDV moves to pressure Newcastle player, that opens even bigger space in the middle, between him and Romero. Newcastle have three players attacking the space against one defender who is behind them able to recover.


Next, Newcastle's first goal.

yVXpsQK.png


We are pressing them in a good structure, we end up recovering the ball, but our passing options are limited, as seen below.

02DecBb.png


Take a look at Newcastle's backline compared to ours. They keep it compact, in a bank of four, with a CM covering the Spurs player in possession. Only Son is in halfspace.

gbzlyUz.png

But Maddison runs straight into the space where Son is. Again, Newcastle defence keeps tight, doesn't break formation and where Son supposed to be (between their CB and LB), now he isn't because he came a bit more centrally and received the ball from Maddison. But take a look at our CMs. Wtf is this? Both covering the same area, both in no man's land.

Iu1VwOe.png

They step up and come forward (BOTH OF THEM!!!!), but by the time they do that, Newcastle have already recovered the ball and Guimaraes (I think?) launches a long ball.

Wk6Ybmk.png

Because Porro has been caught out of position, massive space on the right flank. In the middle, Bissouma is trying to recover, but he's already very far. Gordon outmuscles Udogie and now our CBs are massively exposed.

lbWrfUU.png

So they end up scoring their first, of course VDV slips and you could pin it on him, but you can see what led to this. Massive gaps in defence, our FBs and CMs caught out of position and Newcastle don't even need many players to exploit these spaces.

Another Newcastle chance:

KmFGUAI.png

Porro inverted in midfield, that leaves big gap on the right side, Vicario launches it forward and Newcastle win the second ball.
ptUCf3H.png

Porro is trying to recover as the ball reaches Barnes on his side, but that already forces Romero into overloading, because he has to be careful about Barnes, aswell as be careful about Isak who attacks the big gap in the middle of defence.

This is another angle of the same chance.
gnOe83K.png


And Isak's second goal:
ocmhI5d.png

We have commited so many players forward that a long pass is enough to exploit the space. Also notice Romero's positioning. Was he more central and closer to VDV, I think this might have had less chances of happening. But because he's probably trying to cover for the RB, he's sitting there unable to help VDV.

0Fk2DNQ.png

And of course, Isak's run is extremely hard to defend against, even if you have good pace as VDV's.

And last sequence, Newcastle overloading our RB, whilst they have two runners from midfield. Our defensive shape in this image is slightly better, but our CMs are again nowhere to be seen, the defence is exposed because they have to deal with Newcastle's positional attack, aka the man in possession of the ball, aswell as the danger of late runners who are ready to cause havoc.

uyYksrF.png

Gordon ends up committing forward and receiving the ball, but you can see that our defence has no idea there are runners who will attack the space freely. Also Romero has to step up and try to put pressure on their player, which means that leaves gaps between Royal and VDV for a through ball.

mT2OpPy.png


I'll post the second part of this in the next post, as the forum only allows 20 images per post.
 
Second part:

Bottom line is, the goals we conceded against Forest and Brentford have happened in a pretty similar fashion. CBs covering for FBs who then leave space behind for opposition players to attack.

2jcj20l.png

Here Udogie passes it to Bentancur, who ends up losing the ball. Because Udogie is central, VDV had to cover for him and provide a passing option. However, that leaves him badly out of position.
lF3Zp5C.png

Toney attacks the space in the channels and ends up scoring Brentford's opener.

Below, it's Forest opener. Same thing, Udogie tries to put pressure on their wide player, and that leaves massive gap behind him. VDV notices it and tries to track the runner.

JYA0Bbj.png


But in turn, that opens massive space in the middle, which is exploited by Forest.

DIhDICR.png


Don't know if this will tell you much, but I see a pattern here. A pattern that is so easily exploited because of the way we're set up, which is fundamentally wrong imo. It has little to do with our players. Maybe they're still learning the system hence the massive spaces we leave behind, but I am not really confident that's the case.
 
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Ange played a suicidal high line against our rivals with 9 men AND Eric Dier.
People talk about how stubborn Jose and Conte were but fail to fully appreciate the levels of stubbornness exhibited by Ange and were instead engulfed in a level of euphoria (when things were going well) that they intentionally ignored the obvious.

My post at the early parts of this thread stands. I refuse to accept stupidity just because its something different to the norm we have experienced previously.

imho continuing to start Maddison in the middle is coming into the negligence level/territory. He's watching us get absolutely bossed on an almost weekly basis (with Maddisons complete lack of contribution in an attacking and defensive sense being a key reason for this) and just doesn't react until he absolutely has to.

And I fucking loved him for it and still do.

The Maddison point is about playing your captain into form or dropping him and that's a much harder man management decision than any of us can understand without being around the training ground every day. It's not like Maddison isn't showing flashes of form either.

FWIW I would have dropped Maddison but I have no clue what is going on in training or what else is going into the decisions...

To say it's negligence is way OTT mate.

We played shit, we lost. It will happen again too. But we will also play really fucking well and win too. If I am guessing both of those are very likely in the next 4 games.
 
Second part:

Bottom line is, the goals we conceded against Forest and Brentford have happened in a pretty similar fashion. CBs covering for FBs who then leave space behind for opposition players to attack.

2jcj20l.png

lF3Zp5C.png


JYA0Bbj.png
DIhDICR.png


Don't know if this will tell you much, but I see a pattern here. A pattern that is so easily exploited because of the way we're set up, which is fundamentally wrong imo. It has little to do with our players. Maybe they're still learning the system hence the massive spaces we leave behind, but I am not really confident that's the case.

I thought Newcastle played a back 5?
 
Ange played a suicidal high line against our rivals with 9 men AND Eric Dier.
People talk about how stubborn Jose and Conte were but fail to fully appreciate the levels of stubbornness exhibited by Ange and were instead engulfed in a level of euphoria (when things were going well) that they intentionally ignored the obvious.

My post at the early parts of this thread stands. I refuse to accept stupidity just because its something different to the norm we have experienced previously.

imho continuing to start Maddison in the middle is coming into the negligence level/territory. He's watching us get absolutely bossed on an almost weekly basis (with Maddisons complete lack of contribution in an attacking and defensive sense being a key reason for this) and just doesn't react until he absolutely has to.

Bentancur scores that header and it goes 2 2 and I bet you we aren’t playing the rest of that game on the halfway line.
 
v Forest > 2 x subs at HT = WIN.

Not the first time he's done similar and/or won a match with his subs.
He' made substitutions (as does every manager in world football) but if hazard a guess that the Forest game is one of the few times he made non enforced substitutions that early.

I'm not even talking about his substitutions in terms of him changing things anyway. I'm talking about him actually trying something different in regards to the starting line up and also tweaking things dependent on who we play (something more or less every top manager in world football does).
 
I don’t really like the premise of the question as it’s too binary.

However….

- I absolutely don’t want Ange to abandon his principles and footballing philosophies. Not only do I share them broadly, but nearly all the current top managers are system managers. I’m more than happy that we go onto the pitch every time looking to dominate and outplay opponents. Won’t always be possible, but I think it’s important to have a philosophy and identity that you stay true to in modern football.

- Having said that, I think Ange could show a tad more flexibility without having to compromise his principles.

If I think back to the Liverpool game, it was so so evident that we needed our full-backs to overlap and not underlap to take advantage of the vast amounts of space Liverpool left out wide. Instead, we continued to come into a congested area over and over again - it was very frustrating to watch. The goal eventually came from Porro overlapping.

Similarly, the current situation with corners is hard to watch. You don’t have to “change who we are” to go back to man to man and give the keeper some protection.


So in summary, don’t change the overarching philosophies and principles that guide the type of footy we’re trying to play, but let’s ensure we can adapt to situations in individual games where needed. 👍
 
And I fucking loved him for it and still do.

The Maddison point is about playing your captain into form or dropping him and that's a much harder man management decision than any of us can understand without being around the training ground every day. It's not like Maddison isn't showing flashes of form either.

FWIW I would have dropped Maddison but I have no clue what is going on in training or what else is going into the decisions...

To say it's negligence is way OTT mate.

We played shit, we lost. It will happen again too. But we will also play really fucking well and win too. If I am guessing both of those are very likely in the next 4 games.
Firstly Maddison isn't our captain and secondly to not even attempt to move him to the left (a position he has played at previous clubs and England) in order to regain some form of stability imo Is verging on negligence.

To be absolutely shit in the first half 99% of the time (even in home matches against lower level teams) where there is absolutely no control and not even attempt to regain the control by adding another competetent centre midfielder into the mix thus not getting cut through time and time again and not exposing the centre backs to 30/70 situations/scenarios is absolutely baffling to say the least.

Do you know what will happen against gooner scum if we adopt the same tactics? playing a 3 of Rice, Jorginho and Odegaard with Havertz dropping deep....do you actually know what will happen if we start him again in the centre?
 
He' made substitutions (as does every manager in world football) but if hazard a guess that the Forest game is one of the few times he made non enforced substitutions that early.

City away was another.... We turned that game around too.

.....But to your point HT subs aren't particularly common under any manager.

I'm not even talking about his substitutions in terms of him changing things anyway. I'm talking about him actually trying something different in regards to the starting line up and also tweaking things dependent on who we play (something more or less every top manager in world football does).

Personnel tweaks are happening; but would you truly be comfortable with the idea of changing our primary way of play as a concession to playing the midtable likes of Wolves, Fulham, NC beforea ball has even been kicked....... ?

Sounds like a fast-track to Southgate Land to me where you're just paralysed by being preoccupied with the oppo rather than imposing your own strengths onto weaker teams.... So much so that when the big boys come to town you're rendered devoid of identity.
 
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