Carlos Vinicius

[El Magnifico]

Benfica fan in peace here!
Bored with my club's shit performance this season, so might as well investigate what's happening with some of our on-loan players at other clubs, so I don't have to think about this season at Benfica.



Well, that's not really true, is it?
Look at the top team in the PL now, how many players did they get from the Championship post-dirty oil money, and how many do they currently have from the Portuguese League, all ex-Benfica? (Bernardo Silva, Cancelo, Ederson, Ruben Dias).

Or the impact Bruno Fernandes is having at Man. Utd... or the 750 players Wolves bought from Portugal once they became friends with Jorge Mendes and how they transformed the club? I could give many more examples. The Championship is a great league, far better than any other 2nd tier league, but come on...

Regarding Vinicius, I read the last few pages of this topic, and this a reply to those who already saw enough of him and know that he's rubbish.

Comparing Raul Jimenez and Vinicius:
- Jimenez first season at a top european league (At. Madrid, age 23) was a complete failure. 27 games (all comps), 1 goal
- Vinicius' first half season at an almost top european league (Monaco, age 23) was rubbish. 16 games (just the league), 2 goals. Napoli doesn't count, they bought him for 5M euros with the only objective of loaning out right away, he didn't stay 1 minute there. First went to Rio Ave and in January to Monaco.

- Jimenez was then sold to Benfica after just season 1 season in Spain
- Vinicius was then sold to Benfica after just 1 year of his contract with Napoli

- Jimenez scored 18 goals in the league in 3 seasons for Benfica (80 games). 31 in 120, all comps, he scored a few in the cup against low tier teams. Overall rubbish.
- Vinicius scored 18 goals in the league in 1 season for Benfica (32 games). 24 in 47, all comps. No penalties if I remember correctly. Overall good/very good.

- Jimenez, age 27, after not doing anything of note in Europe, then went on loan to Wolves, buy-out clause +-40M euros. He did great, the 40M ended up being a huge bargain.
- Vinicius, age 25, then went on load to Spurs, buy-out clause +-40M euros. He's not doing great, obviously Spurs won't buy him. Some fans think he should move to a farmer's league.

So similar situations once they got to the top tiers in Europe, but Vinicius did much better up until leaving Benfica, and he's younger. In football, things are never as linear as "Napoli didn't want him, so he's rubbish" or "so and so scored x goals for club A, he'd be great for us".

Look at Luka Jovic, he used to be in our B-team when Jimenez was there, played about 20 minutes total in the league, complete non-entity. Then the following season went on loan to Frankfurt to become one of the world's top strikers, R.Madrid paid 60 million for him... Only to become rubbish again at Madrid, and once again great for Frankfurt after moving in the past transfer window lol

You need to have a coach and a system that is compatible with the players. They can go from being amazing to rubbish or vice-versa just by changing clubs/managers. It's still the same player!

I don't know if Vinicius is good enough for Spurs, honestly probably not, it's been my opinion since he moved. However, I used to think the same about Raul Jimenez, when he went to Wolves. I was 100% sure Wolves wouldn't activate the buy-out clause, I thought it was a fucking joke. But he got to a club that plays in a positive way, with a coach who understands how to play Jimenez effectively. Something he probably never got at Benfica, we had a lot of decent players to choose from back then, effectively spoiled for choice and we made some bad choices. Jimenez is clearly better than what he showed at my club.

The opposite can be said about Vinicius, decent system and team mates for him at Benfica where he could shine, and now at Spurs he gets a neurotic and paranoid coach with massive insecurity issues, who obviously plays in a way that most forwards would struggle. Not to mention Mou's amazing and highly motivating man-management skills. Is Dele Alli that rubbish or is Mourinho a defensive paranoid lunatic? Were Salah and De Bruyne rubbish or was Mourinho a defensive paranoid lunatic at Chelsea? So maybe Vinicius is not Harry Kane mk2 (who is?), maybe he's not as good as Jimenez (different style of play, but who knows...), but he could probably be much more effective in a different environment.

Bruno Fernandes would now be a defensive midfielder with 0 goals and 27 yellow cards had he signed for a Mourinho team. Sign Pickford, his T-Rex arms make him the perfect goalkeeper for a Jurassic coach.

Its an interesting comparison you have of Jimenez and Vinicius, but the reality is that both are simply limited players. Limited player depend more on the system and players around them to succeed.

Jimenez is fortunate to have a Wolves team that plays to his strength, but would likely struggle if he was put in the current City and Liverpool teams. Similarly Vinicius is good around the box (like he showed again) and would likely thrive in a system where gets a high enough supply. In fact he has a better chance of being successful in a Mourinho team than with Pep or Klopp.

But for a club that has top 4 and possibly PL title ambitions, that is simply not good enough. So when people say he is 'rubbish' it needs to be taken in the context of Spurs ambitions.

Side note on Jovic, I dont think his stint at Madrid provides a fair assessment, as Zidane seems bent on presenting almost all scoring chances to Benzema, and seems he does not really appreciate anyone threatening Benzema's position or taking away those goals (a core issue Zidane seems to have with Vinicius who doesnt like to tow the company line). Add the injuries and he was really up against it. Jovic might have been overhyped when he left Frankfurt, but I would like to see him at a different top club before passing judgement.

 

[spursmalc]

Should Vinny have started instead of Son? Well I did not think Son did much but score a goal. Vinny did not do much but score a goal. However the performance was much better in the first half than 2nd half. Whilst we will never know I think we could have got a similar result without Son but hindsight is always easier. Vinny should play in the 2nd match but it is difficult to see him starting again after that.

 

[Kekerinho]

Similarly Vinicius is good around the box (like he showed again) and would likely thrive in a system where gets a high enough supply. In fact he has a better chance of being successful in a Mourinho team than with Pep or Klopp.

Yeah because Mourinho teams create shitloads for their strikers and Guardiola teams don’t. Lol

 

[VonnegutBusy]

Vini didn't play well but got himself another goal so fair play to him.

He's done his part in helping rest some players and score goals against weak opposition but can't see him ever being that guy Mourinho turns to to make the difference against good opponents.

 

[Nuts]

I don't get the complaints. He's clearly a very capable poacher and that's exactly what he did yet again. Of course he's no Kane. Nobody is. We've been spoilt rotten there. Vinny's doing us just fine in these cup matches.

 

[MouraThat]

He's done well as a backup
The issue I have is now I see why Mourinho won't start him against better teams.
His hold up and link up play just isn't that good.
He does a good job at being a 'poacher' but perhaps we are looking for more than that especailly with the way Mourinho setups his team.

 

[Oracle]

My issue is that we are never in a month of Sundays going to pay the £35m to keep him so why didn't we just keep Troy and Dane in and around the squad and give them the same minutes?

 

[Tomo]

He's done well as a backup
The issue I have is now I see why Mourinho won't start him against better teams.
His hold up and link up play just isn't that good.
He does a good job at being a 'poacher' but perhaps we are looking for more than that especailly with the way Mourinho setups his team.

The issue is for someone as a Kane cover we are not going to be buying Haaland or probably even a lesser striker. We need a player happy to be on the bench, come on and poach some goals, he can do that.

The only alternative is to try and buy multi-role attacker like Ings and have him play in a two with Kane and push Son further to the wing but that means a shift in tactics.

 

[Park Lane Mark Twain]

My issue is that we are never in a month of Sundays going to pay the £35m to keep him so why didn't we just keep Troy and Dane in and around the squad and give them the same minutes?

We’ll end up going for Ings with one year left on his contract and wishing Vinicius well.

A team like Southampton can’t afford to lose Ings on a free next year, he along with Sabitzer and their contract situations are the ones we’ll be targeting and I think we’ll secure one if not both.

 

[ShutUpPatrik]

My issue is that we are never in a month of Sundays going to pay the £35m to keep him so why didn't we just keep Troy and Dane in and around the squad and give them the same minutes?

Because Troy and Dane will need more minutes to continue their development and take the step up.

Dane gets his minutes in the U18/U23 team. But Troy was ready to go out on loan and ply his trade. Granted the Millwall loan did not work out but he is getting minutes at Ipswich now at least.

 

[ChiversRegal]

We’ll end up going for Ings with one year left on his contract

Do you honestly think Ings at his age would want to come here as Kanes back up and spend most of his time on the bench?
He left the dippers because he spent most of his time on the bench, admittedly he was hampered with injuries there.
Just my view but i think Ings only says yes if he's guaranteed game time or Kane leaves.

 

[Distaste for scouse]

Before we got Vinny we were linked with Origi, Deeney, Ings and Wilson.

Any one of these would have been a better signing than Vinny.

I got nothing against Vinny he works hard for the team and pops up with the odd goal against lesser opposition, but the fact is he can't be trusted to start premier league games when Kane needs a rest, he just doesn't have enough presence. So we would have been better off signing any of the above.

A lot of people mocked the prospect of signing Deeney as a backup but he is a far better player than Vinny with Premier league experience and goals.

I also don't buy this myth that players wouldn't want to come to play second fiddle to Kane, you can't make that argument and then also make the argument that Kane needs to be rested more.

With the domestic cups and Europa plus the odd PL runout a backup striker for us would easily get 20+ games, and give us the versality to bring a 2nd striker on in games where we are hunting for a goal.

The problem is clear, we keep buying unproven players or players performing well in far inferior leagues and hoping that if we buy enough raffle tickets one will come up a winner.
See Soldado, Janssen. The pattern is there for all to see.

I don't see why we don't just get a proven premier league goalscorer they were/are always a couple available.

 

[Distaste for scouse]

We’ll end up going for Ings with one year left on his contract and wishing Vinicius well.

A team like Southampton can’t afford to lose Ings on a free next year, he along with Sabitzer and their contract situations are the ones we’ll be targeting and I think we’ll secure one if not both.

This would be a great signing, he has PL experience and can be trusted to fill in for Kane at PL level.

There is zero point in having a backup striker who can't be trusted to fill in for Kane in the PL

 

[DR Spurs]

Vinny does not convince me at all, he may do well in other leagues, but the Prem is too much for him in my opinion...a shame because I hoped we'd found 'the one' when we signed him up.

I actually think that we need to try something we haven't tried in a long time, that is bringing in a second striker who is used to playing in England (not being jingoistic btw)...there are plenty out there (Ings, Bamford, Callum Wilson etc).

It just seems that we always go for some foreign 'up and coming' striker and expect him to not only be an understudy to Kane, but to also hit the ground running when we play him occasionally.

Anyway, back to Vinny, I'd call time on his loan at the end of the season personally...he has shown that he can score, but I don't think he can handle the physical nor the positional side of the game.

 

[Harrykane9]

Young lad learning his trade. Decent back up that knows his role tbh

 

[Tomo]

Young lad learning his trade. Decent back up that knows his role tbh

No issue with Vinnie he is a good finisher. If we want a guy with Kane like qualities we would have to pay a fuck lot more and there are other areas of the team that need addressing.

 

[El Magnifico]

Yeah because Mourinho teams create shitloads for their strikers and Guardiola teams don’t. Lol

FYI Guardiola likes to play with a false #9 while Mourinho likes to play with a target man.

But dont let facts discourage you from exhibiting your ignorance in public

 

[Park Lane Mark Twain]

Do you honestly think Ings at his age would want to come here as Kanes back up and spend most of his time on the bench?
He left the dippers because he spent most of his time on the bench, admittedly he was hampered with injuries there.
Just my view but i think Ings only says yes if he's guaranteed game time or Kane leaves.

Honest question..... why can’t both play either in the same 11 or with serious rotation to protect Harry.

Modern football seems to only believe a system can function with a sole striker. With Harry dropping deeper this season we have options to incorporate the two which, if it come soon off would be the best chance for Ings to become an England starter and to play in Europe unless a team like Leicester see him as an option to the ageing Vardy

 

[Allejo10]

FYI Guardiola likes to play with a false #9 while Mourinho likes to play with a target man.

But dont let facts discourage you from exhibiting your ignorance in public

You are Mourinho, não és? Only Mourinho himself could defend Mourinho as much as you do.

 

[Igula]

Before we got Vinny we were linked with Origi, Deeney, Ings and Wilson.

Any one of these would have been a better signing than Vinny.

I got nothing against Vinny he works hard for the team and pops up with the odd goal against lesser opposition, but the fact is he can't be trusted to start premier league games when Kane needs a rest, he just doesn't have enough presence. So we would have been better off signing any of the above.

A lot of people mocked the prospect of signing Deeney as a backup but he is a far better player than Vinny with Premier league experience and goals.

I also don't buy this myth that players wouldn't want to come to play second fiddle to Kane, you can't make that argument and then also make the argument that Kane needs to be rested more.

With the domestic cups and Europa plus the odd PL runout a backup striker for us would easily get 20+ games, and give us the versality to bring a 2nd striker on in games where we are hunting for a goal.

The problem is clear, we keep buying unproven players or players performing well in far inferior leagues and hoping that if we buy enough raffle tickets one will come up a winner.
See Soldado, Janssen. The pattern is there for all to see.

I don't see why we don't just get a proven premier league goalscorer they were/are always a couple available.

Deeney and Origi would not be better options than Vinicius. Deeney would be much, much worse and Origi is a similar player.

Ings had zero interest in coming here and is in a way higher cost bracket to Vinicius. Doubts that Wilson would have come and again the price is much different for him as well.

People rightly mocked Deeney links because he sucks, he sucked when he was in his prime and he sucks even more now that he is aging and takes zero interest in fitness or health.

The only benefit Deeney provides is that it would make sense when Jose sits him like he sits Vinicius for no reason.