Management ENIC

[dudu]

Well I use the forum because I find it fun. If other posters want to criticise my opinions I don't care either. I don't mind a bit of thoughtful debate, it's a useful way of forming an opinion because parts of an opinion that have been successfully debated against can be altered making the opinion more formidable.

I suppose since this is the Levy/ENIC thread the 10-15 posters that you refer to are posters who want them out. Why won't you permit them (in what you have decided is reality) to post their views without wanting to engage in thoughtful debate? It's a fan's forum not a philosophical debating chamber. They're not actually doing anything wrong in sticking to their opinions, repeatedly posting similar comments, because they feel disgruntled with the current owners of the club.

It seems to me (in what I've decided is reality) that 5-10 posters on here including yourself, are here to debate and try to win arguments. You've seen the poll numbers at the top of the thread, and you want to have it out with the posters in that majority. The thing is, even if you win an argument, it doesn't necessarily mean that you were right, it could just mean that you were better at arguing. There is merit to posters to simply post what they want about Levy within the forum rules, as often as they like, without needing to engage in meaningful debate. They may well care about things other than their own opinions, perhaps they don't enjoy debate. Maybe they think the debates just go around and around with the two sides having to agree to disagree, or it just ends up being a slanging match.

There's no need to feel that you need to call out every opinion or statement that you think is wrong, or to think that posters have a requirement to debate your challenge over something they posted.

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I came onto this forum and within weeks was called a cum guzzling levy lover after trying to have nuanced discussions.

I was shut down and branded as something I was not without any desire to really understand or engage with my point of view because I was not aligned with the mission of these posters.

I dont want to have it out with every poster that voted in the majority of that poll, thats pretty obvious. Im happy to have it out with the people I feel acted like twats to me when I joined because I wouldn't tow their line.

I have plenty of discussions with people in good faith on here and I definitely dont call out every opinion I disagree with.... you see it how you see it.

 

[CJJ]

I mean, they're all European football clubs, whose squads are of roughly the same size?

You are flopping around all over the place here mate.

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I'm sorry, but my argument has never been - and is not - flopping. I don't mean to sound condescending, but I find it frustrating that a very simple argument is so difficult to get across.

I'll simplify it even more.

• Chelsea have 46 players listed in the team on Chelsea FC - Detailed squad 25/26
• Tottenham have 33 players listed in the team on Tottenham Hotspur - Detailed squad 25/26
• Chelsea, therefore, have 40% more players than us.

(This doesn't take into account the full 'scale' of wages, which includes young players in the academy AFAIK, but let's assume their contribution is unlikely to be significant.)

Here's a link to the club's wages in the PL https://www.planetfootball.com/prem...ll-ranking-2024-25-man-utd-liverpool-Woolwich

• Chelsea's wage bill is listed as £162m.
• Ours is listed as £112m.

Can you guess what % more their total wage bill is compared to ours?

£162m/46 = £3.52173913 avr/player/annum
£112m/33 = £3.39393939 avr/player/annum

 

[FightingIllini]

I'm sorry, but my argument has never been - and is not - flopping. I don't mean to sound condescending, but I find it frustrating that a very simple argument is so difficult to get across.

I'll simplify it even more.

• Chelsea have 46 players listed in the team on Chelsea FC - Detailed squad 25/26
• Tottenham have 33 players listed in the team on Tottenham Hotspur - Detailed squad 25/26
• Chelsea, therefore, have 40% more players than us.

(This doesn't take into account the full 'scale' of wages, which includes young players in the academy AFAIK, but let's assume their contribution is unlikely to be significant.)

Here's a link to the club's wages in the PL https://www.planetfootball.com/prem...ll-ranking-2024-25-man-utd-liverpool-Woolwich

• Chelsea's wage bill is listed as £162m.
• Ours is listed as £112m.

Can you guess what % more their total wage bill is compared to ours?

£162m/46 = £3.52173913 avr/player/annum
£112m/33 = £3.39393939 avr/player/annum

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Well but hang on a minute, Chelsea don't pay the wages of the dozen senior players they send on loan every year.

Or perhaps they chip in some small portion, but it's about wages actually paid.

As I said before, ideally you'd have a measure of wages paid plus amortized transfer expenditure, and better still if you had some reflection of obligations out into the future, but that stuff isn't public information.

The Deloitte Money League figures are the best apples-to-apples comparison of various major factors of revenue in and expenditure out that we get.

 

[CJJ]

Well but hang on a minute, Chelsea don't pay the wages of the dozen senior players they send on loan every year.

Or perhaps they chip in some small portion, but it's about wages actually paid.

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Did we pay the wages of Gil, Solomon, Phillips, Vuskovic, Hojbjerg, and Min-Hyeok?

 

[AberdeenYid]

It’s my understanding that these wage bill percentages are covering all club staff, not just players.

If that’s the case, we need to look at those total numbers.

Spurs employ around 1700 staff.

Chelsea employ around 3500 staff.

That skews the argument too?

 

[FightingIllini]

Did we pay the wages of Gil, Solomon, Phillips, Vuskovic, Hojbjerg, and Min-Hyeok?

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Pretty sure no in all cases unless I missed some reporting.

We definitely had to pay some of Ndombele's salary on loan though, which would cover the most current Deloitte year.

(That's the other thing, that wages to turnover number will surely go down even further in the 24/25 figures to come early next year)

It’s my understanding that these wage bill percentages are covering all club staff, not just players.

If that’s the case, we need to look at those total numbers.

Spurs employ around 1700 staff.

Chelsea employ around 3500 staff.

That skews the argument too?

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If Levy, the highest paid chairman in the league, is included in those numbers, that hardly strengthens the argument.

Is our headcount that far short of Chelsea? Beefing up the staff has been a big part of Levy's mission hasn't it?

 

[Tottenham Massive]

Maybe the demonstrations, although mocked on here by some, had some affect on the decisions made

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Absolutely no doubt about that. Thank fuck the whole fanbase wasn't prepared to keep bending over and taking it up the ass like the Shadyfixxes of this world.

They don't really deserve this.

I think MGW is a signing for us. The fans who speak up and demand change

Looks like a big club is finally acting like a big club after 25 years.
MGW is the kind of signing we should be making on a regular basis.

Baby steps and all that....But promising signs nonetheless.

COYS

 

[AberdeenYid]

If Levy, the highest paid chairman in the league, is included in those numbers, that hardly strengthens the argument.

Is our headcount that far short of Chelsea? Beefing up the staff has been a big part of Levy's mission hasn't it?

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Levy gets paid the equivalent of 1% of Chelsea’s wage bill, so not really moving the needle that much. Not enough to make up for 1799 other staff I’d have thought.

As for the headcount’s, just going off Google, so unsure of the accuracy. No real way to find out otherwise.

 

[CJJ]

If Levy, the highest paid chairman in the league, is included in those numbers, that hardly strengthens the argument.

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Take into account the fact that he does the role of about 5 people.

Look at the united list of "directors". More Glazers than a conversatory convention

Does say "The total amount of compensation (including share-based payments) paidor payable and benefits in kind provided to the members of our board of directors and our executive management employees for thefiscal year 2024 was £11,030,000." so in this case, their board costs more than ours.

As an aside, I find it hilarious that they are so up themselves that they decided to include their little narcissistic gloats on the annual report. The whole thing, in general, is absolutely wild - makes Mein Kampf look like a hoot

 

[scarletjim]

Well you certainly came across as intolerant of someone else's behaviour, and it now seems even odder that you criticise someone for not engaging with others in discussion.

I'm on the Autism spectrum too, are you sure you didn't mean RAADS not SAADS?

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Sorry yes, that is what I meant.

Yes I am intolerant of certain behaviours, dependent on what I perceive to be their cause (and we can only perceive, that's all any of us can do when considering each other's behaviours).

I must admit I'd never considered that his refusal to engage might be due to some kind of neuro-diversity, if that is the case then it would explain why he won't discuss anything, but I very much doubt that's the case, to me it seems far more likely that he won't discuss because he knows full well that much of what he says doesn't stand up to even the most basic scrutiny because he seems incapable of posting without hyperbole, embellishment and over-simplification. In my opinion of course - that's all I can give.

 

[FightingIllini]

Levy gets paid the equivalent of 1% of Chelsea’s wage bill, so not really moving the needle that much. Not enough to make up for 1799 other staff I’d have thought.

As for the headcount’s, just going off Google, so unsure of the accuracy. No real way to find out otherwise.

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With a larger stadium and training ground, and let's not forget a women's team we actually own, I can't imagine our headcount being that far short of theirs, but who knows.

Take into account the fact that he does the role of about 5 people.

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Another thing that desperately needs changing at the club.

But still, read the room man, "Daddy Daniel deserves more money than all the other PL chairmen " ain't exactly beating the Levybot accusations.

 

[CJJ]

But still, read the room man, "Daddy Daniel deserves more money than all the other PL chairmen " ain't exactly beating the Levybot accusations.

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Been over it before, but he is in a unique position with his role as very few PL clubs have an operational chairman, but united and city's highest paid directors are paid higher than our chairman. The main thing that skewed it was a back-paid bonus from around COVID.

I don't need to "read the room" - no one actually counter-balances the irrational hatred at all. The worst, if not sad, part is that people (myself included) get accused of being pro-Levy or 'Levybot' or 'BSODL' or whatever merely for bringing up facts and shooting down the false claims. It makes its own case.

What this world needs the least is more people making shit up to gather support for hating a human being that is a million miles off justifying it. Absolutely no evidence at all that he's a bad human being, but people talk like he's Idi Amin because none of the millionaires we employ kicked the ball into the net in any of the 4 different cup finals prior to this season gone

 

[dudu]

It’s my understanding that these wage bill percentages are covering all club staff, not just players.

If that’s the case, we need to look at those total numbers.

Spurs employ around 1700 staff.

Chelsea employ around 3500 staff.

That skews the argument too?

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The wage bill 100% covers all staff.

 

[FightingIllini]

Been over it before, but he is in a unique position with his role as very few PL clubs have an operational chairman, but united and city's highest paid directors are paid higher than our chairman. The main thing that skewed it was a back-paid bonus from around COVID.

I don't need to "read the room" - no one actually counter-balances the irrational hatred at all. The worst, if not sad, part is that people (myself included) get accused of being pro-Levy or 'Levybot' or 'BSODL' or whatever merely for bringing up facts and shooting down the false claims. It makes its own case.

What this world needs the least is more people making shit up to gather support for hating a human being that is a million miles off justifying it. Absolutely no evidence at all that he's a bad human being, but people talk like he's Idi Amin because none of the millionaires we employ kicked the ball into the net in any of the 4 different cup finals prior to this season gone

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It really would not be that hard to look at us having the lowest wages to turnover for our players but the highest wages for our chairman and say "this is bad and should not be the case"

It's bad! It shouldn't be the case!

Again, the only dissent from that viewpoint I have ever seen comes from a handful of people whose RELIGION is wanking off about how passé and unsophisticated wanting your football team to spend more money is. A cult for which Daniel Levy is the godhead, even though that's stupid on its own terms.

 

[CJJ]

It really would not be that hard to look at us having the lowest wages to turnover for our players but the highest wages for our chairman and say "this is bad and should not be the case"

It's bad! It shouldn't be the case!

Again, the only dissent from that viewpoint I have ever seen comes from a handful of people whose RELIGION is wanking off about how passé and unsophisticated wanting your football team to spend more money is. A cult for which Daniel Levy is the godhead, even though that's stupid on its own terms.

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How old and cherry picked is that graphic? Ed Woodward hasn't been at Man Utd for 4 years

As you've brought it up though, is it not worse that Paul Barber pays himself over £1m more than his average player salary?
So does Neill Blake at Bournemouth.


Not that no one criticises anyone for 'wanting your football team to spend more money' - they criticise the criticism of the club not spending more for the sake of it, and acting like the club's weakness is having competency.

 

[FightingIllini]

Mate, I'm done here.

You're happy for Levy to be the best paid chairman in the league while we spend the lowest share of our revenue on the team in the league.

You, I and everyone who cares to read it can fully understand and appreciate what that says about you.

Let's go take some dodgy Saudi sponsorship money so we can put this to bed, shall we?

 

[CJJ]

You, I and everyone who cares to read it can fully understand and appreciate what that says about you.

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Not sure the little jibe is necessary, but what it says about me is that I can digest the accounts perhaps, and understand a bit more how the financial side works.

I don't think people who yearn for dirty money hold the moral high ground here, though.

 

[Muckleflugga]

It really would not be that hard to look at us having the lowest wages to turnover for our players but the highest wages for our chairman and say "this is bad and should not be the case"

It's bad! It shouldn't be the case!

Again, the only dissent from that viewpoint I have ever seen comes from a handful of people whose RELIGION is wanking off about how passé and unsophisticated wanting your football team to spend more money is. A cult for which Daniel Levy is the godhead, even though that's stupid on its own terms.

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Instead of relying on some load of rubbish on the internet, try looking at actual company accounts, that table has The Woolwich 14th ?????? in the table yet if you look at their accounts you find this.


Remuneration of the highest paid director:-£2,000,000
Remuneration of key management personnel £7,341 6,624
The Group's key management personnel comprised of the Board of Directors, the Chief Executive Officer and the Sporting Director.

Try going to Companies House and looking up the accounts for Woolwich Holdings Ltd.

 

[McCOYS]

I came onto this forum and within weeks was called a cum guzzling levy lover after trying to have nuanced discussions.

I was shut down and branded as something I was not without any desire to really understand or engage with my point of view because I was not aligned with the mission of these posters.

I dont want to have it out with every poster that voted in the majority of that poll, thats pretty obvious. Im happy to have it out with the people I feel acted like twats to me when I joined because I wouldn't tow their line.

I have plenty of discussions with people in good faith on here and I definitely dont call out every opinion I disagree with.... you see it how you see it.

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Well if you want to spend your time on here having it out with some posters that insulted you shortly after you joined the forum, and because they won't engage in discussion with you, ones that you say don't care about anything other than their own opinions, you do that. Supposing you're right about them, they won't care what you have to say anyway. So effectively you're talking into a void. At least I can have fun watching you, now that I know what you're up to, so your efforts aren't completely wasted.

 

[FightingIllini]

Instead of relying on some load of rubbish on the internet, try looking at actual company accounts, that table has The Woolwich 14th ?????? in the table yet if you look at their accounts you find this.


Remuneration of the highest paid director:-£2,000,000
Remuneration of key management personnel £7,341 6,624
The Group's key management personnel comprised of the Board of Directors, the Chief Executive Officer and the Sporting Director.

Try going to Companies House and looking up the accounts for Woolwich Holdings Ltd.

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The club accounts go into much greater detail, but the trouble is each club is structured differently, handles its finances differently, and reports differently, in a couple cases on a different fiscal year I believe.

The value Deloitte provides, as a world-class accounting firm, is digging into that stuff with a sophistication we boobs on the internet do not have, and synthesizing into apples-to-apples comparisons in a number of domains.