Harry Winks

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Not sure he is good enough to play cm in a two. I actually think he is better a bit further forward. Maybe a midfield 3 would suit him more.
 

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So glad you decided to contribute to the discussion with something fresh and insightful..... Oh wait.

:pochrolleyes:
Oh ok then.

For ME, he's at his best when he acts as a metronome and keeps the ball ticking over when we're in a winning position. I think he's a very average player when the game is in the balance and he actually has to accomplish something dynamic.
 

Airfixx

Cherub
I can't really remember him being that much of a marauding CM. For the last couple of years it's been Eriksen who's been doing that role. He's checked out know, but he really did run his bollocks off for last two seasons, picking up the ball and trying to drive it forward. Plus, we always had Dembele* to do that.

I don't think he has the skill set to do that anymore more. Coaching or otherwise. He is good at keeping an eye on those around him, finding space and maintaining possession as part of a 3. Just don't think we should be starting games with that mindset.

*I'm still maintaining that our greatest loss is not Poch, Eriksen or Levy's wallet - it's Dembele. He defined Poch's tenure.
.....But we never play as an orthodox 3man MF (driving me nuts that we won't even try it!) so what are you basing your conclusions on?

If you can't "remember" the Winks that debuted.... Hit the archives - I'm not making it up. :)

What we've since done with Eriksen (or how much we miss Dembele) whilst playing winks as a #6 is just muddling the water of the question you originally asked.
 

Airfixx

Cherub
Oh ok then.

For ME, he's at his best when he acts as a metronome and keeps the ball ticking over when we're in a winning position. I think he's a very average player when the game is in the balance and he actually has to accomplish something dynamic.
Reading between the lines I'm seeing another person that expects him be a creator when not deployed as one and a DM whilst not suited to being one.

Forgive me if I'm wrong.
 
Reading between the lines I'm seeing another person that expects him be a creator when not deployed as one and a DM whilst not suited to being one.
I might have this wrong, as my google skills are limited, but I've just searched his PL stats.

16/17 - one goal, one assist.
17/18 - no goals, one assist.
18/19 - one goal, no assists.
This season - nothing so far.

Stats can be misleading and he was certainly doing a lot of good work for the first two seasons. But they do not convince me that he is our 8. I remember him clearly saying after the Fulham goal that Poch had asked him to get forward more and develop his attacking game. That has not happened.

Not going to criticise him for his defensive work - it's not his game, that's on the manger.
 

Airfixx

Cherub
I might have this wrong, as my google skills are limited, but I've just searched his PL stats.

16/17 - one goal, one assist.
17/18 - no goals, one assist.
18/19 - one goal, no assists.
This season - nothing so far.

Stats can be misleading and he was certainly doing a lot of good work for the first two seasons. But they do not convince me that he is our 8. I remember him clearly saying after the Fulham goal that Poch had asked him to get forward more and develop his attacking game. That has not happened.

Not going to criticise him for his defensive work - it's not his game, that's on the manger.
Respectfully.... Use your eyes.... His skillset as a debuting player isn't going to statistically manifest themselves as goals and assists straight off the bat.

Subsequently his first run in the team was derailed by an injury and he's been deployed as a #6 ever since.

...We come full circle. His stats in recent seasons are meaningless in the context of what I'm putting to you (and others).

Look, I'm open to the unfortunate notion that we may have fucked his development and killed the instincts/qualities he'd developed as a youth, but peeps simply aren't analysing the situation properly here.
 
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Airfixx

Cherub
Only works in a 3 with a proper DM next to him. Which we don't have.
That's largely hypothetical analysis which actually misses the point I'm seeking to establish.

As per the thread of this discussion I'm having in another post right now....

It's pointless looking at the traits of flawed DM's performances and using that as a basis to decide what his deeper aptitudes are.....

The basis of my position here is based on the player who debuted for us, not the player that Poch rightly or wrongly turned him into.


Can that original player be salvaged? I don't know.....
 
Or the players we have just aren't up for it.

So really Jose's real test is getting rid of half of this squad that aren't good enough.
It's a matter of not being good enough and also not turning up in the case of some players. It would have been easier if we were only talking about a lack of quality.
 

Airfixx

Cherub
Or the players we have just aren't up for it.

So really Jose's real test is getting rid of half of this squad that aren't good enough.
So why sack Poch then half-way through his rebuild then? (Partially rhetorical, but no less pertinent)....

To clarify tho...

"up for it" = mentality
"up to it" = quality

......The former should be within the manager's control surely? Hense my "big match jose" comment.
 
Can that original player be salvaged? I don't know.....
Well if he can be salvaged, we'll have to drop one of Lo Celso or Ndombele to give him time to see if he's up to it.

I'd submit that after three seasons with us, it's make or break time for him. Play him as an 8, but he needs to make things happen.
 
Stats can be misleading
Very misleading, I'm not comparing Winks to Demdele in any way whatsoever but just have a look at Denbele's goals and assist columns.

My only point is re stats and why they don't show the whole picture.

Mousa Dembélé

View:OverallHomeAway
SeasonTeamTournamentAppsMinsGoalsAssistsYelRedSpGPS%AerialsWonMotMRating
7.41
2018/2019TottenhamEPL7(3)516--1-0.189.60.6-6.38
2018/2019TottenhamUCL2164--1-1950.5-6.43
2018/2019BelgiumUNL0(1)10-----84.61-6.36
2017/2018TottenhamUCL3(3)328--2--92.70.2-6.66
2017/2018TottenhamEPL21(7)1886--6-0.492.20.3-6.90
2016/2017TottenhamUCL2(2)165--1-0.383.51-6.78
2016/2017TottenhamEPL24(6)2066115-0.5920.827.18
2016/2017TottenhamUEL2143----1.592.7--7.46
2018BelgiumWC2(2)178-----96.40.5-6.40
2015/2016TottenhamUEL1(3)1591-1-0.589.20.8-6.64
2015/2016TottenhamEPL27(2)2273313-0.8901.147.69
2014/2015TottenhamUEL4(1)351----0.890.40.6-7.39
2014/2015TottenhamEPL10(16)1140111-0.489.30.8-6.63
2016BelgiumUEC157-----100--7.27
2013/2014TottenhamUEL75791---1.193.30.6-7.48
2013/2014TottenhamEPL22(6)1823115-0.590.81.137.14
2014BelgiumWC2155--1-0.592.31.5-7.04
2012/2013TottenhamUEL8(2)723111-0.489.8137.26
 
Very misleading, I'm not comparing Winks to Demdele in any way whatsoever but just have a look at Denbele's goals and assist columns.

My only point is re stats and why they don't show the whole picture.

Mousa Dembélé

View:OverallHomeAway
SeasonTeamTournamentAppsMinsGoalsAssistsYelRedSpGPS%AerialsWonMotMRating
7.41
2018/2019TottenhamEPL7(3)516--1-0.189.60.6-6.38
2018/2019TottenhamUCL2164--1-1950.5-6.43
2018/2019BelgiumUNL0(1)10-----84.61-6.36
2017/2018TottenhamUCL3(3)328--2--92.70.2-6.66
2017/2018TottenhamEPL21(7)1886--6-0.492.20.3-6.90
2016/2017TottenhamUCL2(2)165--1-0.383.51-6.78
2016/2017TottenhamEPL24(6)2066115-0.5920.827.18
2016/2017TottenhamUEL2143----1.592.7--7.46
2018BelgiumWC2(2)178-----96.40.5-6.40
2015/2016TottenhamUEL1(3)1591-1-0.589.20.8-6.64
2015/2016TottenhamEPL27(2)2273313-0.8901.147.69
2014/2015TottenhamUEL4(1)351----0.890.40.6-7.39
2014/2015TottenhamEPL10(16)1140111-0.489.30.8-6.63
2016BelgiumUEC157-----100--7.27
2013/2014TottenhamUEL75791---1.193.30.6-7.48
2013/2014TottenhamEPL22(6)1823115-0.590.81.137.14
2014BelgiumWC2155--1-0.592.31.5-7.04
2012/2013TottenhamUEL8(2)723111-0.489.8137.26
One of the prime examples that stats can sometimes be misleading. He was offering way more than can be seen here.
 

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