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Management Johan Lange - Technical Director

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If you want me to answer your question then no I don't think he is holding any money back and is generally trying to spend as much as we could afford on what he thinks we need but that isn't my criticism anyway...I just don't think he knows how to build and maintain a squad - that is my 'narrative'



Well this is strange because that sentence you've done your best to twist and misconstrued says my argument isn't solely about money and you know this because you've removed all my other points in the same paragraph and on that by the way identifying the right profiles doesn't cost money, you do know what I mean by that don't you? I mean not targeting players like Dragusin if you're looking to play out from the back, not targeting a load of ball carriers when you need passing midfielders in your team, you tell me why is that so difficult and how that actually costs money?

Hopefully that's a question you're gonna answer this time but I won't hold my breath...

I'll happily concede the point about buying ready made players but I still think there was room to move away from the youth project at times...e.g why did we need a 21 year old keeper who had 0 experience in the Prem to replace our first choice keeper who got injured for example?



Already said about the injuries thing which again you seemed to have conveniently missed so once again you can identify risks for example like not renewing Bentancur knowing he's had 2 long term injuries and selling Richarlison for example knowing that he's a sick note...and if you want to go down the youth route focus on players with the same profile for the players who are constantly injured, Maddison/VdV/Udogie/Rich for example, again that doesn't cost more money but at least there's a strategy there.



And I've already proposed the things I'm concerned about but you're not 'all ears' because you just ignored all the points I made in the paragraph you just removed.

And you have the cheek to say I'm avoiding questions when I've asked you this and you've ignored it:



And this and you have ignored it:



Are you trying to hide behind this "club" thing to protect Lange as if he's not calling the shots now? So who is "The club"?

If you want to throw out condescending little jabs about people having low IQs and act like you’re above everyone else be my guest...but if you’re going to do that then at least be prepared to have an actual debate.

So drop the disingenuous crap and argue in good faith for once.
You’re trying to bomb the space with extra questions to divert from the original discussion.

The original discussion was about whether we know enough to hold Lange responsible. If we’re going to discuss whether hes good at his job we have to understand what resources he has and what his objectives are. Those are not completely transparent to us so let’s acknowledge that.

We also need to empathise with the person. That’s not the same as defending someone. It’s too easy to critique from the sidelines. Anyone can complain and we all know moaners in real life - they’re not the first people I would go to for insight. So let’s try to be better than that.

We both agree that Lange has more limited resources than anyone else in the top six. He has about the same amount of money as Villa to spend on wages. So already, that is a healthy degree of mitigation. When I talk about the « club », in that context I’m talking about whoever sets the budgets. I won’t pretend to know who is really calling the shots.

We also agree that he does not coach the players. That is more mitigation.

You have brought up Bentancur and Richarlison. Last summer we had two midfielders going into the past year of their contract - Bissouma and Bentancur. Maybe you would have sold both and brought in a new midfielder. That’s what I would have done on FM too but that was also a risk. Sell your two senior central midfielders and hope the new players hit the ground running?

Richarlison didnt want to go last summer. He made that clear on Instagram. He wants to be Brazil’s #9 and you can’t sell aomeone who doesn’t want to go. There’s a contract to be respected.

But if we’re talking about injuries as an issue, then this is the second season in a row where weve had the most matches missed due to injuries. For that we can mostly give responsibility to the medical team, the analysts, the coaching staff and Scott Munn. Lange is WAY down the list of people responsible for that. We haven’t failed to deal with a normal amount of injuries. Weve failed to deal with an amount of injuries that would cripple any team in the league.

I forgot about the Dragusin window so I take that. Dragusin was a bad signing (although ANOTHER ACL victim and still very young for a centreback). He was 21 when he was signed. Hes just turned 24 a few days ago. But don’t let me disguise the fact that he is a poor stylistic fit and that is on the recruitment team.

In the end, hes looked at the resources he will have to spend unambiguously gone for a long term strategy. It could not be more obvious. If even half the players we have bought develop well then we will have a very good team in 3 years… and most of those players will STILL be years away my from their peak.

Has he made mistakes? Yes. But everyone does. I still think that if we get a ball playing 8 and a couple of players down the left who are first team ready, and a good coach … then we could have a very good team. We shouldn’t be as low as we are. We’re due a bit of luck with both injuries and transfers.
 
You’re trying to bomb the space with extra questions to divert from the original discussion.

Sorry, what? the 'extra questions' were part of the original discussion - Two of the questions literally kicked off this debate?

The original discussion was about whether we know enough to hold Lange responsible. If we’re going to discuss whether hes good at his job we have to understand what resources he has and what his objectives are. Those are not completely transparent to us so let’s acknowledge that.

Sure, we don’t know every detail behind the scenes but that doesn’t mean we can’t judge what we can see which is what I'm doing... If that was the standard nobody in football could ever be criticised. We can see the squad balance, the recruitment choices and the same gaps appearing year after year and in particular I am judging his time since he's been here and we are seeing the current end product - this is exactly what Lange’s job is judged on.

Acknowledging unknowns is fine but what you're doing it using them as a shield against accountability, we can see the squad planning and the end result which is visible to everyone and as a result we can see the flaws.

We also need to empathise with the person. That’s not the same as defending someone. It’s too easy to critique from the sidelines. Anyone can complain and we all know moaners in real life - they’re not the first people I would go to for insight. So let’s try to be better than that.

Empathy doesn't give you a free pass from criticism, I'm sure you can empathise with Frank but it doesn't mean he cannot be criticised or you haven't criticised him so why are we protecting Lange, I don't understand it?

We both agree that Lange has more limited resources than anyone else in the top six. He has about the same amount of money as Villa to spend on wages. So already, that is a healthy degree of mitigation. When I talk about the « club », in that context I’m talking about whoever sets the budgets. I won’t pretend to know who is really calling the shots.

Funny you mention Villa, they've recruited far better than us since he's gone and as I've said they pay lower salaries than us, so what exactly is the excuse here?

We also agree that he does not coach the players. That is more mitigation.

We can agree on that.

You have brought up Bentancur and Richarlison. Last summer we had two midfielders going into the past year of their contract - Bissouma and Bentancur. Maybe you would have sold both and brought in a new midfielder. That’s what I would have done on FM too but that was also a risk. Sell your two senior central midfielders and hope the new players hit the ground running?

Aha but this goes back to the previous Summer because he bought Archie Gray who is a kid, had he planned accordingly he could have profiled someone else to play in that midfield like MGW for example who we went for this Summer then you wouldn't be left counting on Bentancur or Bissouma.

This is what happens when you bring in two kids to play in that position, between Bergvall and Gray you can't tell me signing a senior player in that position would have alleviated the issue of trying to balance the books with Bissouma and Bentancur - this is basic squad planning.

The failing to buy LB cover situation proves the point - Udogie is injury prone so we end up using Spence a right-back which forces Porro to play every minute because there’s no real cover, Porro gets overplayed then injured and now Spence was injured too from lack of rest...this is the negligence I’m talking about....better planning even just proper LB cover would’ve avoided this domino effect.

Richarlison didnt want to go last summer. He made that clear on Instagram. He wants to be Brazil’s #9 and you can’t sell aomeone who doesn’t want to go. There’s a contract to be respected.

Again this is a failure of duties, if clubs want players out the door then they do everything they can, he went on the tour for example, not being an arsehole but this club have ostracised players before to make it clear they're not wanted around...Frank literally did that with Bissouma for example.

But if we’re talking about injuries as an issue, then this is the second season in a row where weve had the most matches missed due to injuries. For that we can mostly give responsibility to the medical team, the analysts, the coaching staff and Scott Munn. Lange is WAY down the list of people responsible for that. We haven’t failed to deal with a normal amount of injuries. Weve failed to deal with an amount of injuries that would cripple any team in the league.

IMO Lange should be responsible for mitigating risk and trying to provide some sort of cover for the areas that need addressing, LB should have been bought last year to help Destiny, still no cover for VDV...Actually I won't be a hypocrite and say we should have gotten a backup for Maddison because Kulu could play there and it was unfortunate that he went down.

I still think not having a LW is gross negligence...even an Adamola Lookman for example would have been ideal before he went to Atletico as he was an alleged £40k per week over there

I forgot about the Dragusin window so I take that. Dragusin was a bad signing (although ANOTHER ACL victim and still very young for a centreback). He was 21 when he was signed. Hes just turned 24 a few days ago. But don’t let me disguise the fact that he is a poor stylistic fit and that is on the recruitment team.

In the end, hes looked at the resources he will have to spend unambiguously gone for a long term strategy. It could not be more obvious. If even half the players we have bought develop well then we will have a very good team in 3 years… and most of those players will STILL be years away my from their peak.

Cool about Drausin. 👍

I don't have a problem with having a long term strategy but it's as if he's completely negated the short term and seems like he's just buying young because of high potential as opposed to having a strategy of buying players who actually fit the team, this is my biggest issue with Lange - no rhyme or reason to his recruitment...it's the same for Gallagher, I just don't understand his squad planning or player profiling.

Has he made mistakes? Yes. But everyone does. I still think that if we get a ball playing 8 and a couple of players down the left who are first team ready, and a good coach … then we could have a very good team. We shouldn’t be as low as we are. We’re due a bit of luck with both injuries and transfers.

I just don’t think he’s done a very good job and I’m not convinced he actually knows how to build a properly balanced squad rather than just collecting prospects and hoping it works.
 
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Sorry, what? the 'extra questions' were part of the original discussion - Two of the questions literally kicked off this debate?



Sure, we don’t know every detail behind the scenes but that doesn’t mean we can’t judge what we can see which is what I'm doing... If that was the standard nobody in football could ever be criticised. We can see the squad balance, the recruitment choices and the same gaps appearing year after year and in particular I am judging his time since he's been here and we are seeing the current end product - this is exactly what Lange’s job is judged on.

Acknowledging unknowns is fine but what you're doing it using them as a shield against accountability, we can see the squad planning and the end result which is visible to everyone and as a result we can see the flaws.



Empathy doesn't give you a free pass from criticism, I'm sure you can empathise with Frank but it doesn't mean he cannot be criticised or you haven't criticised him so why are we protecting Lange, I don't understand it?



Funny you mention Villa, they've recruited far better than us since he's gone and as I've said they pay lower salaries than us, so what exactly is the excuse here?



We can agree on that.



Aha but this goes back to the previous Summer because he bought Archie Gray who is a kid, had he planned accordingly he could have profiled someone else to play in that midfield like MGW for example who we went for this Summer then you wouldn't be left counting on Bentancur or Bissouma.

This is what happens when you bring in two kids to play in that position, between Bergvall and Gray you can't tell me signing a senior player in that position would have alleviated the issue of trying to balance the books with Bissouma and Bentancur - this is basic squad planning.

The failing to buy LB cover situation proves the point - Udogie is injury prone so we end up using Spence a right-back which forces Porro to play every minute because there’s no real cover, Porro gets overplayed then injured and now Spence was injured too from lack of rest...this is the negligence I’m talking about....better planning even just proper LB cover would’ve avoided this domino effect.



Again this is a failure of duties, if clubs want players out the door then they do everything they can, he went on the tour for example, not being an arsehole but this club have ostracised players before to make it clear they're not wanted around...Frank literally did that with Bissouma for example.



IMO Lange should be responsible for mitigating risk and trying to provide some sort of cover for the areas that need addressing, LB should have been bought last year to help Destiny, still no cover for VDV...Actually I won't be a hypocrite and say we should have gotten a backup for Maddison because Kulu could play there and it was unfortunate that he went down.

I still think not having a LW is gross negligence...even an Adamola Lookman for example would have been ideal before he went to Atletico as he was an alleged £40k per week over there



Cool about Drausin. 👍

I don't have a problem with having a long term strategy but it's as if he's completely negated the short term and seems like he's just buying young because of high potential as opposed to having a strategy of buying players who actually fit the team, this is my biggest issue with Lange - no rhyme or reason to his recruitment...it's the same for Gallagher, I just don't understand his squad planning or player profiling.



I just don’t think he’s done a very good job and I’m not convinced he actually knows how to build a properly balanced squad rather than just collecting prospects and hoping it works.
This is now challengingly long. I’ll try to keep it punchy.

- You cannot assess how well someone is doing their job unless you assess the resources they have. More resources = greater expectation of results. When you focus only on outcomes without considering resources, you are missing vital context.

- Accurate wage data is hard to come by. But according to fbref there is no significant difference between our wages and Villa’s. Villa’s model is also unlikely to be sustainable and they have a much better coach than us.

- I don’t think MGW is the stick to beat Lange with. That was crazy and we were unlucky.

- I agree we haven’t done enough at fullback. Even this needs contextualising though. We haven’t overbought in any area so with the limited resources that Lange practically has, spending on X means not spending on Y. The holes in the squad are like a game of wackamole without proper funding. That lack of funding is not down to Lange.

- What don’t you understand about Gallagher? We have a huge hole in midfield due to injuries and the opportunity to sign a good player we have longstanding interest in came up.

- When Lange took over, many fans were crying out for us to become like Brighton or Dortmund. Signing young players with high potential using data. Whether you agree or disagree with that, at that point our squad had become bloated with some good but not great players like Richarlison Bentancur post injury and Hojbjerg who could turn out 7/10 performances but were limited in their ceiling. The plan to buy youth with a higher ceiling is a good one but the problem is these players are turning out 4/10 players in the short term. This has been compounded by being unusually unlucky with injuries which means these players need to carry the team. This has been ok in Europe but they’ve struggled in the most competitive league in the world.

- Lange and whoever else have done a poor job with coaches. We must get that appointment right. If we get that right then I think we are a midfield passer and some better luck with injuries away from having a good team.
 
Morgan Rogers excepted, I’m not sure Villa have signed that well since Lange left. The timing of that deal would suggest Lange maybe had a hand in it anyway.

Plenty to beat him up about since he arrived here, but Villa’s mediocre business is a weaker point.
 
Morgan Rogers excepted, I’m not sure Villa have signed that well since Lange left. The timing of that deal would suggest Lange maybe had a hand in it anyway.

Plenty to beat him up about since he arrived here, but Villa’s mediocre business is a weaker point.

Villa always looks like more than the sum of their parts to me

Rogers is the only one I really like. Id take Martinez too of course.
 
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This is now challengingly long. I’ll try to keep it punchy.

- You cannot assess how well someone is doing their job unless you assess the resources they have. More resources = greater expectation of results. When you focus only on outcomes without considering resources, you are missing vital context.

- Accurate wage data is hard to come by. But according to fbref there is no significant difference between our wages and Villa’s. Villa’s model is also unlikely to be sustainable and they have a much better coach than us.

- I don’t think MGW is the stick to beat Lange with. That was crazy and we were unlucky.

- I agree we haven’t done enough at fullback. Even this needs contextualising though. We haven’t overbought in any area so with the limited resources that Lange practically has, spending on X means not spending on Y. The holes in the squad are like a game of wackamole without proper funding. That lack of funding is not down to Lange.

- What don’t you understand about Gallagher? We have a huge hole in midfield due to injuries and the opportunity to sign a good player we have longstanding interest in came up.

- When Lange took over, many fans were crying out for us to become like Brighton or Dortmund. Signing young players with high potential using data. Whether you agree or disagree with that, at that point our squad had become bloated with some good but not great players like Richarlison Bentancur post injury and Hojbjerg who could turn out 7/10 performances but were limited in their ceiling. The plan to buy youth with a higher ceiling is a good one but the problem is these players are turning out 4/10 players in the short term. This has been compounded by being unusually unlucky with injuries which means these players need to carry the team. This has been ok in Europe but they’ve struggled in the most competitive league in the world.

- Lange and whoever else have done a poor job with coaches. We must get that appointment right. If we get that right then I think we are a midfield passer and some better luck with injuries away from having a good team.
Sound like he's agent
 
Both 'stories' blatantly internet bollocks........

Come on lads; have a word with yourselves.
You can't prove or disprove either story Airfixx Airfixx
You may not want to believe them but their veracity is the same as pretty much anything you choose to belive. Its funny how people can't simply own their own biases. Some people see Lange as an over promoted weepy waste of payroll based on his demeanor in interviews and anecdote. Give us your narrative assement let's see if we can get behind it, as opposed to simply saying 'man you can't belive what's said on line man!'
 
This is now challengingly long. I’ll try to keep it punchy.

- You cannot assess how well someone is doing their job unless you assess the resources they have. More resources = greater expectation of results. When you focus only on outcomes without considering resources, you are missing vital context.

So we can't asses Frank knowing that he didn't have Maddison/Kulu and Solanke for the chunk of the season then?

- Accurate wage data is hard to come by. But according to fbref there is no significant difference between our wages and Villa’s. Villa’s model is also unlikely to be sustainable and they have a much better coach than us.

The point is that Villa's model has been more sustainable than ours over the past 3 years, you saying it's unlikely to be sustainable is pure speculation and guesswork...you told me you deal in facts.

- I don’t think MGW is the stick to beat Lange with. That was crazy and we were unlucky.

I didn't do that, you didn't read it properly - I said he should have been profiling a player 'like' MGW a year before to make up for the shortfall of losing Bentancur and Bissouma in the same window i.e squad planning.

- I agree we haven’t done enough at fullback. Even this needs contextualising though. We haven’t overbought in any area so with the limited resources that Lange practically has, spending on X means not spending on Y. The holes in the squad are like a game of wackamole without proper funding. That lack of funding is not down to Lange.

Why are you making this more difficult than it needs to be, it's not all about funding. We bought in Souza this window to finally get a LB to push or cover Destiny, cheap fee, cheap wages - you're telling me that a player like that couldn't have been profiled and purchased in previous windows?

- What don’t you understand about Gallagher? We have a huge hole in midfield due to injuries and the opportunity to sign a good player we have longstanding interest in came up.

He's a ball carrying midfield 8, what does he bring that our other 6 ball carrying midfield 8's aren't bringing themselves? How even is that good profiling?

- When Lange took over, many fans were crying out for us to become like Brighton or Dortmund. Signing young players with high potential using data. Whether you agree or disagree with that, at that point our squad had become bloated with some good but not great players like Richarlison Bentancur post injury and Hojbjerg who could turn out 7/10 performances but were limited in their ceiling. The plan to buy youth with a higher ceiling is a good one but the problem is these players are turning out 4/10 players in the short term. This has been compounded by being unusually unlucky with injuries which means these players need to carry the team. This has been ok in Europe but they’ve struggled in the most competitive league in the world.

- Lange and whoever else have done a poor job with coaches. We must get that appointment right. If we get that right then I think we are a midfield passer and some better luck with injuries away from having a good team.

I have a bit of sympathy in regards to the direction of the club...seemingly we are trying to target young players and again I'd be a hypocrite to say that we shouldn't now be using that strategy because I've always wanted to sign up and coming young players but if that's the strategy then I've maintained that they need to be the right profile for what we've trying to do and at least have a plan for them, we don't really have a plan of clear progression for Bergvall or Gray because they are 8's and we already have Sarr, Bentancur and Bissouma who were already 8's and now we signed Gallagher who is...another 8 - we signed Tel who isn't at the level yet and we don't even know what his best position or what kind of player he's going to to be for example.
 
You can't prove or disprove either story Airfixx Airfixx
You may not want to believe them but their veracity is the same as pretty much anything you choose to belive.

Oh come on; it's blatantly Daily Star-level salacious tabloidy bollocks.

Not even that 'credible'.

.............Here's the extent of your evidence:


View: https://x.com/TudorTHFC/status/1886849296399811022


.....An absolute nothing account (that's evidently keen on name changes) claiming "my sources".

Its funny how people can't simply own their own biases. Some people see Lange as an over promoted weepy waste of payroll based on his demeanor in interviews and anecdote

Stating him to be "weepy" without the remotest bit of reasonable evidence (other than thinking he's shit).

I've no bias to "own" here... I just don't need to embrace this bollocks to reach the same conclusions about the bloke not being up to snuff.

Give us your narrative assement let's see if we can get behind it, as opposed to simply saying 'man you can't belive what's said on line man!'

My narrative?

(see above)


.....I didn't say believe nothing online so lets not go down the strawman path.
 
So we can't asses Frank knowing that he didn't have Maddison/Kulu and Solanke for the chunk of the season then?



The point is that Villa's model has been more sustainable than ours over the past 3 years, you saying it's unlikely to be sustainable is pure speculation and guesswork...you told me you deal in facts.



I didn't do that, you didn't read it properly - I said he should have been profiling a player 'like' MGW a year before to make up for the shortfall of losing Bentancur and Bissouma in the same window i.e squad planning.



Why are you making this more difficult than it needs to be, it's not all about funding. We bought in Souza this window to finally get a LB to push or cover Destiny, cheap fee, cheap wages - you're telling me that a player like that couldn't have been profiled and purchased in previous windows?



He's a ball carrying midfield 8, what does he bring that our other 6 ball carrying midfield 8's aren't bringing themselves? How even is that good profiling?



I have a bit of sympathy in regards to the direction of the club...seemingly we are trying to target young players and again I'd be a hypocrite to say that we shouldn't now be using that strategy because I've always wanted to sign up and coming young players but if that's the strategy then I've maintained that they need to be the right profile for what we've trying to do and at least have a plan for them, we don't really have a plan of clear progression for Bergvall or Gray because they are 8's and we already have Sarr, Bentancur and Bissouma who were already 8's and now we signed Gallagher who is...another 8 - we signed Tel who isn't at the level yet and we don't even know what his best position or what kind of player he's going to to be for example.
We are going round in circles a bit here.


- when you consider the injuries that a manager has then you are considering the resources he has at his disposal. That doesn’t mean you can’t assess the manager’s performance but you are considering relevant context. A managers job is to use the resources at his disposal to get results. Tudor actually sait it very well:

« There is strong quality in this playing squad, and my job is to organise it, energise it and improve our results quickly. »

The existence of injuries doesnt excuse everything but it must be considered and factored into our assessment.

- We have been more successful than Villa over the past 3 years. They have a better team than us at the moment though. The reason I say their model is likely not sustainable is because of their wages to turnover. They have a very delicate balance and they’re already stuck in a place where they have to buy the kind of 7/10 players that burdened us a few years ago. Guessand signed for 30m and immediately loaned out to Palace where he hasnt done much. Douglas Luiz on loan having flopped at Juve. Tammy Abraham???!! The only remotely interesting signings are 19 year olds.

- You need to address the whackamole argument. This is the last time I’ll say it because we’re speaking past each other. If the squad management you are expecting requires more money on transfer and wages (it does) then you are not criticising Lange, but the people who control the budget.

- I’ve already agreed with you about fullback and a ball playing midfielder. But without €€ we are talking about more young, high ceiling players who can’t contribute big time now.

- Gallagher is necessary precisely for the squad management reasons you have. Most of our 8s are not wanted or not fit. As Lange said in his interview, we shouldn’t buy just anything to fill those gaps. But Gallagher would start when all our midfielders are fit. He’s a clear upgrade.

- To make this strategy work, we need a manager who has a track record of improving players and he plays on the front foot. I think our fans would be a lot more patient with the youth vision if we played some attacking football. When weve tried to attack this season we have played great stuff. Perhaps Ange was a little too inflexible and plan A. Then we swung to the other extreme with Frank who is extremely reactive. Someone who is 75% Ange and 25% Frank would be great.
 
We are going round in circles a bit here.


- when you consider the injuries that a manager has then you are considering the resources he has at his disposal. That doesn’t mean you can’t assess the manager’s performance but you are considering relevant context. A managers job is to use the resources at his disposal to get results. Tudor actually sait it very well:

« There is strong quality in this playing squad, and my job is to organise it, energise it and improve our results quickly. »

The existence of injuries doesnt excuse everything but it must be considered and factored into our assessment.

Right so in that case Johan Lange has the 6th best resources in the Premier League, there are 14 other teams worse off than us so if you're judging him on resources then why do we have amongst the worst recruitment in the Premier League over the period since he's been here?

- We have been more successful than Villa over the past 3 years. They have a better team than us at the moment though. The reason I say their model is likely not sustainable is because of their wages to turnover. They have a very delicate balance and they’re already stuck in a place where they have to buy the kind of 7/10 players that burdened us a few years ago. Guessand signed for 30m and immediately loaned out to Palace where he hasnt done much. Douglas Luiz on loan having flopped at Juve. Tammy Abraham???!! The only remotely interesting signings are 19 year olds.

Oh come off it 😆 Okay we won a trophy but if that's your idea of success in this context then you're contradicting yourself because that isn't sustainable, we're not likely to keep picking up trophies every season. Villa have finished 4th/6th and possibly top 4 - in that time we have finished 5th/17th and possibly low this season - over a 3 year period they have sustained their growth despite their financial drawbacks, that shows good squad planning and making the most out of their situation.

Also you're being selective on the players that they've brought in because over the past 3 years they have signed better players than us, that's a fact - also Douglas Luiz was one of their best players before they had to sell him to Juve because of FFP, re-signing him was a good move.

- You need to address the whackamole argument. This is the last time I’ll say it because we’re speaking past each other. If the squad management you are expecting requires more money on transfer and wages (it does) then you are not criticising Lange, but the people who control the budget.

Literally addressed it in my previous post, you must have missed it.

Why are you making this more difficult than it needs to be, it's not all about funding. We bought in Souza this window to finally get a LB to push or cover Destiny, cheap fee, cheap wages - you're telling me that a player like that couldn't have been profiled and purchased in previous windows?

Also as well the lack of funding is a by product of the money he's already spent on dross or poor fits...where does Tel fit for example, like what was the plan for him? That money could have been spent elsewhere. Where does Dragusin fit for example, if he profiled a LCB that would have made much more sense. Signing Kinsky only to try and sell him to West Ham 12 months later, all of these are all Lange's own doing.

- I’ve already agreed with you about fullback and a ball playing midfielder. But without €€ we are talking about more young, high ceiling players who can’t contribute big time now.

Sigh...You're gonna keep saying this and I'm gonna keep repeating myself, you can target the right profiles without breaking the bank, you can even target young players just as long as the profiling is right, so as I said before Souza has come in who is a young and up and coming player, low fee/low wage but why has that taken 3 years?

You're acting as if I'm asking for world class players to come in now, I'm not.

- Gallagher is necessary precisely for the squad management reasons you have. Most of our 8s are not wanted or not fit. As Lange said in his interview, we shouldn’t buy anything to fill those gaps. But Gallagher would start when all our midfielders are fit. He’s a clear upgrade.

If our players are unfit at the moment then why do we need to sign him on a perm and give him a 5 year contract?

Do you know how stupid his squad planning is by signing Gallagher? If completely contradicts the strategy of signing young players because he's going to be taking mins of Gray and Bergvall because they all profile in the same position.

Gallagher was signed to seemingly cover Bentancur but you don't have to sign like for like especially as we are stacked with the same kind of players, it's crap squad planning.

- To make this strategy work, we need a manager who has a track record of improving players and he plays on the front foot. I think our fans would be a lot more patient with the youth vision if we played some attacking football. When weve tried to attack this season we have played great stuff. Perhaps Ange was a little too inflexible and plan A. Then we swung to the other extreme with Frank who is extremely reactive. Someone who is 75% Ange and 25% Frank would be great.

Well you'd think our Sporting Director would have thought of that before hiring Frank then wouldn't you?
 
Right so in that case Johan Lange has the 6th best resources in the Premier League, there are 14 other teams worse off than us so if you're judging him on resources then why do we have amongst the worst recruitment in the Premier League over the period since he's been here?



Oh come off it 😆 Okay we won a trophy but if that's your idea of success in this context then you're contradicting yourself because that isn't sustainable, we're not likely to keep picking up trophies every season. Villa have finished 4th/6th and possibly top 4 - in that time we have finished 5th/17th and possibly low this season - over a 3 year period they have sustained their growth despite their financial drawbacks, that shows good squad planning and making the most out of their situation.

Also you're being selective on the players that they've brought in because over the past 3 years they have signed better players than us, that's a fact - also Douglas Luiz was one of their best players before they had to sell him to Juve because of FFP, re-signing him was a good move.



Literally addressed it in my previous post, you must have missed it.



Also as well the lack of funding is a by product of the money he's already spent on dross or poor fits...where does Tel fit for example, like what was the plan for him? That money could have been spent elsewhere. Where does Dragusin fit for example, if he profiled a LCB that would have made much more sense. Signing Kinsky only to try and sell him to West Ham 12 months later, all of these are all Lange's own doing.



Sigh...You're gonna keep saying this and I'm gonna keep repeating myself, you can target the right profiles without breaking the bank, you can even target young players just as long as the profiling is right, so as I said before Souza has come in who is a young and up and coming player, low fee/low wage but why has that taken 3 years?

You're acting as if I'm asking for world class players to come in now, I'm not.



If our players are unfit at the moment then why do we need to sign him on a perm and give him a 5 year contract?

Do you know how stupid his squad planning is by signing Gallagher? If completely contradicts the strategy of signing young players because he's going to be taking mins of Gray and Bergvall because they all profile in the same position.

Gallagher was signed to seemingly cover Bentancur but you don't have to sign like for like especially as we are stacked with the same kind of players, it's crap squad planning.



Well you'd think our Sporting Director would have thought of that before hiring Frank then wouldn't you?
I am making criticisms of Lange. You have characterised me as defending him but I am trying to paint a full picture of his time here rather than the simplistic takes most people are giving. I’m sure Lange himself would reflect on things he could have done better.

I don’t think he’s done an excellent job. But he hasn’t done the terrible job the internet moaners say he has either.

I think he’s done a pretty good job given the constraints.

Thanks for discussing.
 
I am making criticisms of Lange. You have characterised me as defending him but I am trying to paint a full picture of his time here rather than the simplistic takes most people are giving. I’m sure Lange himself would reflect on things he could have done better.

I don’t think he’s done an excellent job. But he hasn’t done the terrible job the internet moaners say he has either.

I think he’s done a pretty good job given the constraints.

Thanks for discussing.

So after all that do you think still think he should keep his job based on what he's done here? :D
 
So after all that do you think still think he should keep his job based on what he's done here? :D
The strategy is designed to work over 5 years not 2. I know most fans have a 10 minute attention span but we should judge the strategy over that timeframe.

That being said, the next managerial appointment is very important. If it’s good then he’ll have been a real success. The young players are only going to get better and we’re not buying many players with a 7/10 ceiling anymore.

If the next managerial appointment is bad then he should go (even if there are many other people involved in that process).

We won’t know that for at least another 12 months.
 
So after all that do you think still think he should keep his job based on what he's done here? :D
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