He's gone just a little bit...
Made me chuckle, fair play.
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Management Levy / €NIC. In or Out
- Thread starter Tottenham Massive
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Made me chuckle, fair play.
Maybe you'll chill out a little now then brother.
You make fair points, so does Parisien. Life is so much better when you can see an argument from both sides.
“Poor or lucky” is a bit of a stretch. The club is in a far, far stronger position on the pitch than it was 20 years ago. Are you really ascribing all (or even most) of that to luck?
Building up the training ground and stadium does benefit them but people who make that argument tend to completely ignore the obvious fact that it hugely benefits the club too. The value is real and intrinsically connected to the benefit derived by the club.
Big decisions since and including Mourinho have been poor. Hiring Paratici is exactly the sort of move anti-Levy folk we’re clamouring for and yet his football decisions still end up being laid at Levy’s door.
I agree there are legitimate concerns and have repeatedly said so. I just don’t think that legitimate concerns implies ENIC out. I think the current emotions are a function of the teams performances and results at the moment. Clubs should not change chairmen like managers.
Yeah I probably went OTT. My bad.
This whole debate is very fierce atm & its easy to get carried away. Think I speak for everyone when I say we all badly need a chilled out win vs Palace tomorrow night so we can all just enjoy a bloody football match rather than get too carried away with shit that's completely out of our control anyway.
Decided not to vote, but I do appreciate this thread as there are some genuinely good, thoughtful arguments on both sides. Ok, so there’s also about 10 pages of bickering/point scoring but you can‘t have everything. I get that the tough results at the moment get people going, but it’s all relative. My brother’s a Southampton supporter, and he’d love to be in our shoes right now (and they have just had the recent change of ownership and management).
For the record, I think we could do better than ENIC but we could also do a lot worse. I do take some pride in not being financed by oil money and that attempts are being made to run us like a proper business in the ridiculous world that is professional football. I think our funding situation will steadily improve, but understand why our painful recent history in this area is too much for many. Conversely I hate ENIC’s apparent lack of passion for our club and just the corporate spin that gets put on everything we do now.
We are encouraged to live in a binary world these days. However, I think many here do appreciate that this isn’t just a black and white, change this and everything will be fine question, and that’s why I’m choosing not to vote. There are multiple factors at play as to why our performances /results have dipped.
I also think there’s a valid debate to be had around how we even define success, and what we expect from new owners. Too many people just swallow the pundits constantly repeated ’no tropies=no success‘ line without really thinking it through. Very few clubs can win them and the deck is loaded. If you want to enjoy your football, then entertainment has to count too. Winning something would be incredible but it’s not an entitlement. I bet Brighton and Brentford fans are scoring sky high on fan enjoyment ratings right now, but they would kill for our current funding.
For the record, I think we could do better than ENIC but we could also do a lot worse. I do take some pride in not being financed by oil money and that attempts are being made to run us like a proper business in the ridiculous world that is professional football. I think our funding situation will steadily improve, but understand why our painful recent history in this area is too much for many. Conversely I hate ENIC’s apparent lack of passion for our club and just the corporate spin that gets put on everything we do now.
We are encouraged to live in a binary world these days. However, I think many here do appreciate that this isn’t just a black and white, change this and everything will be fine question, and that’s why I’m choosing not to vote. There are multiple factors at play as to why our performances /results have dipped.
I also think there’s a valid debate to be had around how we even define success, and what we expect from new owners. Too many people just swallow the pundits constantly repeated ’no tropies=no success‘ line without really thinking it through. Very few clubs can win them and the deck is loaded. If you want to enjoy your football, then entertainment has to count too. Winning something would be incredible but it’s not an entitlement. I bet Brighton and Brentford fans are scoring sky high on fan enjoyment ratings right now, but they would kill for our current funding.
Emotional reaction is to vote out and give me some oil money. But then I’d feel like the club were tainted blood if we did that. I wish we’d run like Liverpool does.
Absolutely .. the issue here being that they're not delivering either. It's pre Pochettino's final season that we played consistently entertaining football. I imagine Brighton/Brentford would kill for our financial power but would they swap it for actually looking forward to watching the team play each week? I doubt it. Their clubs have tangible identities.
Levy/ENIC could probably get away with another decade of no silverware, but they won't get away with another decade of no silverware & shit football with these resources. We're one of the 10 wealthiest clubs in world football, whilst the fans understand the competition we face in the PL we should be capable of building a side which isn't a chore to watch play. That should be the absolute bare minimum.
It's in a far better position than it was 20 years ago, and it's in a far worse position than it was 20 years before that.
Most proper fans aspire to more than treading water or hovering in the periphery of actual success.
As a supporter there's little difference between us being also-rans in the Prem for the next 30 years, or being also-rans in the Championship or lower. The disappointment will still feel the same.
Very nicely put.
I’ve not voted for a few reasons.
I fall in the middle on most points. I could vote yes - but I feel any American owners will push for ESL and I’m not sure that is something fans really want.
I don’t really want the club to be owned by a state either.
What does that leave? Elon musk? The bloke interested in Chelsea, then Man Utd and now possibly us? If he’s happy to spend billions then why not? Change can be good.
But ENIC do what they say on the tin - a very slick marketing machine. The stadium is a thing of beauty, football wise recently we have fallen at the last hurdle - mainly due to players and management not stepping up when needed.
On a more personal note ENIC no longer take any money from me and I’ve personally benefitted from the amount of regeneration around the area so I’d be a bit of a hypocrite to complain about what they have done / achieved. It’s there for all to see when they walk down the high road, the area has improved massively.
I don’t buy the we were so great in the past either. Going through the decades from the 60s.
We won the double, got relegated, won a European trophy with mainly homegrown players and non league players and then won an FA cup and almost went bankrupt straight after. Highlights after that 2 league cup wins and mid table obscurity.
Then recently a CL final and best league positions consistently since the 60s. We have improved since they took over IMHO.
And we are not Real Madrid or Liverpool in terms of past glory’s.
This vote flip flops depending on the league position / mood. I’m convinced that the vote would not look the same when we were 3rd and pushing the top 2 a matter of days / weeks ago.
Maybe Zomb is right. A relegation party would be the only way that a true ENIC out movement begins. Until that day it’s just a few angryish people on the internet and at the ground. People are still giving ENIC their hard earned £sss anyway. In which case their “investment” is paying dividends.
But the main reason I have not voted is a friend died on NYE and tbh this vote means absolutely nothing. It’s a nice way to waste a bit of time I guess.
But I won’t give one flying fuck about it on my death bed. And neither will anyone else arguing about it right now. At least I hope they don’t for their sake.
So I’m chilling out with my puppy snoring asleep on my feet. Then back to work in a couple of hours.
Life is good. Hopefully spurs win tonight and make it better.
Enic should not change managers like they change managers. We don’t back them like Abramovich backed Chelsea , yet panic hire and panic fire pretty regularly
Levy gave Tim Sherwood his first opportunity , that tells me all I need to know about Levy’s competence or lack of
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85% of the forum want ENIC out? Are we sure about this lads? Pretty sure the forum has more than 133 members. Looks like there’s a lot of members not voted here due to having the thread starter on ignore, or general apathy towards the question.
So not really 85% of the forum. Just of the voters. But forum sounds better right? So say that because it makes everything so much more conclusive. Makes our fanbase seem much more up in arms about being in lowly fifth in the league and still in the CL.
But it’s another untruth that spoils some perfectly good ENIC Out arguments. These need to be pointed out, or they just become the accepted narrative.
So not really 85% of the forum. Just of the voters. But forum sounds better right? So say that because it makes everything so much more conclusive. Makes our fanbase seem much more up in arms about being in lowly fifth in the league and still in the CL.
But it’s another untruth that spoils some perfectly good ENIC Out arguments. These need to be pointed out, or they just become the accepted narrative.
It’s ridiculous. As you say, Chelsea can just chuck a couple of hundred million at the new guy and trip along like nothing has happened.
We leave our new guy with little funds and a squad of “projects” the last guy was working on.
Terrible state of affairs and one Levy has to shift from.
Yup, I'm as guilty as anyone for getting a tad tetchy on here. It's an emotive subject.
As I see it, there's shades of Grey to it, rather than the stark Black and White that some, on both sides of the argument, would believe.
I did a very good management course years ago by Franklin Covey, where the first principle was first seek to understand, then be understood, so I do try to apply that thinking whenever I can. I'm not always successful, but then no one is perfect.
Having an opinion is everyone's right, but it should always be tempered with the realisation that your opinion can be wrong and should always be questioned, especially by yourself. In such a way do we learn and grow.
It makes you wonder what the fucking point in putting the club into £1bn of debt was. We have one of, if not, the best stadium in the world, along with one of the finest training facilities. Presumably that means that you want to be considered one of the best teams in the world. It also makes you wonder why they go and bring in elite level managers.
But then you go and sign players like Emerson Royal when you need a right back. You need a Centre back but instead of signing Bastoni, Skriniar or Gvardiol, you sign Clement Lenglet on loan for a season (who is genuinely no better than Ben Davies). You allow yourself to go into a season with zero creative midfielders and 48 defensive ones.
Levy and ENIC are pretending that we’re a big club. We dress like one. We talk like one. But the truth is we’re not. Big clubs get what they need when they need it. They don’t buy the third or fourth option, they sign the manager’s first choice.
They summed it up nicely last summer. They made this great big song and dance about releasing £150m, implying that this was going to be a “war chest” for Conte. £150m is the baseline big clubs spend every summer. We ended up not even spending that.
But then you go and sign players like Emerson Royal when you need a right back. You need a Centre back but instead of signing Bastoni, Skriniar or Gvardiol, you sign Clement Lenglet on loan for a season (who is genuinely no better than Ben Davies). You allow yourself to go into a season with zero creative midfielders and 48 defensive ones.
Levy and ENIC are pretending that we’re a big club. We dress like one. We talk like one. But the truth is we’re not. Big clubs get what they need when they need it. They don’t buy the third or fourth option, they sign the manager’s first choice.
They summed it up nicely last summer. They made this great big song and dance about releasing £150m, implying that this was going to be a “war chest” for Conte. £150m is the baseline big clubs spend every summer. We ended up not even spending that.
An emotive subject for us all, aye. I know I’ve put just over forty years into supporting this club, the last thirty spending a fearful amount of time and money travelling the 1000 mile round trip to watch us win the square root of fuck all. So I’m physically, emotionally and financially invested in wanting us to be successful. And being a bit of a prick generally, it does come out even more at times like this.
I just don’t react well to constant negativity towards the club I love, especially when I feel it is being directed towards anyone that I believe has the good of the club at heart. And I can only assume Levy and the board do.
Isn’t it the case that we’ve suddenly come in to an upturn in money due to the stadium, just like a taken over club would come into an upturn? When a club is taken over by an oil state, or a Russian crook, they don’t tend to go straight out and buy a new world class first team. They build slowly. Look at the most recent example, Newcastle. Hardly spent on top class players so far, as they know they can’t just drop a £100m Bellingham on £350k per week into a squad of players on £75k per week. So they build slowly and constructively.
And yes, that means the odd Royale slipping into the squad, but it happens. I urge you to look back at the first few windows of Russian Chelsea and Oil Man City and see the duds they took on.
I
ita not comparable. They’ve had 22 years to plan the football recruitment and establish a selection process. A switch wasn’t pressed overnight when the stadium opened
Sorry to hear about your friend. You're spot on in highlighting a key point about this argument. It's ok to be passionate about the club, but if you have big and often emotionally draining things going on in life, the weekly soap opera of any football team should not be all consuming.Very nicely put.
I’ve not voted for a few reasons.
I fall in the middle on most points. I could vote yes - but I feel any American owners will push for ESL and I’m not sure that is something fans really want.
I don’t really want the club to be owned by a state either.
What does that leave? Elon musk? The bloke interested in Chelsea, then Man Utd and now possibly us? If he’s happy to spend billions then why not? Change can be good.
But ENIC do what they say on the tin - a very slick marketing machine. The stadium is a thing of beauty, football wise recently we have fallen at the last hurdle - mainly due to players and management not stepping up when needed.
On a more personal note ENIC no longer take any money from me and I’ve personally benefitted from the amount of regeneration around the area so I’d be a bit of a hypocrite to complain about what they have done / achieved. It’s there for all to see when they walk down the high road, the area has improved massively.
I don’t buy the we were so great in the past either. Going through the decades from the 60s.
We won the double, got relegated, won a European trophy with mainly homegrown players and non league players and then won an FA cup and almost went bankrupt straight after. Highlights after that 2 league cup wins and mid table obscurity.
Then recently a CL final and best league positions consistently since the 60s. We have improved since they took over IMHO.
And we are not Real Madrid or Liverpool in terms of past glory’s.
This vote flip flops depending on the league position / mood. I’m convinced that the vote would not look the same when we were 3rd and pushing the top 2 a matter of days / weeks ago.
Maybe Zomb is right. A relegation party would be the only way that a true ENIC out movement begins. Until that day it’s just a few angryish people on the internet and at the ground. People are still giving ENIC their hard earned £sss anyway. In which case their “investment” is paying dividends.
But the main reason I have not voted is a friend died on NYE and tbh this vote means absolutely nothing. It’s a nice way to waste a bit of time I guess.
But I won’t give one flying fuck about it on my death bed. And neither will anyone else arguing about it right now. At least I hope they don’t for their sake.
So I’m chilling out with my puppy snoring asleep on my feet. Then back to work in a couple of hours.
Life is good. Hopefully spurs win tonight and make it better.
At it's best, football is an incredible division from painful times. The football at the moment isn't going to do that, but it's inevitable that some of the factors causing this will change.
If people want to get upset about something, maybe invest some of that passion into what's happening at the NHS at the moment. If you're a casualty of that crisis, you really have something to fight about.
Fingers crossed we get a reaction tonight and we'll all feel better.