Messi - The greatest player ever?

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That's simply not true. The year before his debut Barcelona were in crisis, finishing 6th, 22 points behind Real Madrid. Messi, with Guardiola, has been the catalyst for the greatest club side in the history of the game reaching their peaks. Messi was established as one of the best in the world as a teenager, Maradona not until his early 20's.

Also, there is no doubting what Maradona brought Napoli, but let's no pretend he did it alone and instantly. Napoli spent money on their squad and didn't win the title until Maradona's 3rd season with them and he was in his prime at age 26.

Messi has dominated League and Continental football for over a decade, since he was a teenager (I remember a teenage Messi running Stamford Bridge in the CL). Maradona had an incredible peak of maybe 4-5 years where he was untouchable. But then, so did Ronaldinho.

It depends on what you value, those high peaks where Maradona produced greatness or the longevity of Messi, who has been at the top of the game for over 12 years now.

As for the comment on the Argentina side, they aren't what you seem to think they are, they're an average international side that Messi has lead to 4 international finals (more than Maradona) and has had consistently awful managers and Gonzalo Higuain. Who, if he could finish his dinner would see Argentina as current World and Copa America champions.
Everything you say about Messi is true, I'm not in disagreement with. He's a genius, one of the best there is.

His Barca side though was stacked with talent, this is impossible to deny. A crisis at Barca (and Real Madrid) have different meanings than any other football team, this crisis team were 2000 semi-finalists of CL, Semi-finalists copper del rey, 2001 semi-finalists UEFA Cup & copper del Rey, 2002 CL semi-finalists, 2003 CL quarter-finalists, there were not shit! Take a step back and make the comparison against us, we are runners up finalists and semi-finalists on the domestic scene and lets see in Europe, but we are seen as a very, very good team. I'm only bringing us up into this conversation not to compare the sides side-by-side but just to point out that they were arguably better than us today, the context of Barca in crisis is somewhat overblown I guess is what I'm saying, if only we were in as much crisis as them, I'd love to get to semi-final of CL. The subsequent years were of course phenomenal, but look at the team he was in, in every position you could make an argument the player was the best in his position in the World (always subjective and not always the case as the team as a whole is the biggest factor).

As I said, nothing you have written about Messi I disagree with. I do disagree with the context in which you placed him. The context is key in which Maradona should be viewed too, always difficult to make but having watched both in my lifetime the comparisons of the two era's they played in is night and day to me and why Maradona for me is the better player. (I can't make a case for Pele vs Best vs Puskas vs Eusabbio etc.. as I never saw them play).
 
Everything you say about Messi is true, I'm not in disagreement with. He's a genius, one of the best there is.

His Barca side though was stacked with talent, this is impossible to deny. A crisis at Barca (and Real Madrid) have different meanings than any other football team, this crisis team were 2000 semi-finalists of CL, Semi-finalists copper del rey, 2001 semi-finalists UEFA Cup & copper del Rey, 2002 CL semi-finalists, 2003 CL quarter-finalists, there were not shit! Take a step back and make the comparison against us, we are runners up finalists and semi-finalists on the domestic scene and lets see in Europe, but we are seen as a very, very good team. I'm only bringing us up into this conversation not to compare the sides side-by-side but just to point out that they were arguably better than us today, the context of Barca in crisis is somewhat overblown I guess is what I'm saying, if only we were in as much crisis as them, I'd love to get to semi-final of CL. The subsequent years were of course phenomenal, but look at the team he was in, in every position you could make an argument the player was the best in his position in the World (always subjective and not always the case as the team as a whole is the biggest factor).

As I said, nothing you have written about Messi I disagree with. I do disagree with the context in which you placed him. The context is key in which Maradona should be viewed too, always difficult to make but having watched both in my lifetime the comparisons of the two era's they played in is night and day to me and why Maradona for me is the better player. (I can't make a case for Pele vs Best vs Puskas vs Eusabbio etc.. as I never saw them play).
Hairy muff mucka. That's all that needs be said on that then. Not much more to put in.

Quick question though, if Argentina win this year's World Cup, or next years Copa, or both, does he then get elevated above? Personally I can't see Argentina winning either with how good Brazil in particular are looking. France too.

Then England of course.
 
Hairy muff mucka. That's all that needs be said on that then. Not much more to put in.

Quick question though, if Argentina win this year's World Cup, or next years Copa, or both, does he then get elevated above? Personally I can't see Argentina winning either with how good Brazil in particular are looking. France too.

Then England of course.
I don't really go with the International football team success thing, so much harder to evaluate over a handful of games in a tournament. Look at the reverse argument Mertesacker isn't, nor ever has been a World Class CB but he's a World Cup winner. At least with their club sides there are multiple games that contribute and patterns can be identified, be that a shit team, shit manager, great team shit manager whatever the permutations.

World Cup will be no different to the last 20 or so, the usual suspects will all be in the semi-finals, with one big team on the plane home not getting out of the groups and one surprise team making the quarters.
 
I don't really go with the International football team success thing, so much harder to evaluate over a handful of games in a tournament. Look at the reverse argument Mertesacker isn't, nor ever has been a World Class CB but he's a World Cup winner. At least with their club sides there are multiple games that contribute and patterns can be identified, be that a shit team, shit manager, great team shit manager whatever the permutations.

World Cup will be no different to the last 20 or so, the usual suspects will all be in the semi-finals, with one big team on the plane home not getting out of the groups and one surprise team making the quarters.

Plus he still dragged his country into a World Cup final despite them being incredibly mediocre at the back. For me, the CL is the new benchmark. It’s the toughest competition to win.
 
Plus he still dragged his country into a World Cup final despite them being incredibly mediocre at the back. For me, the CL is the new benchmark. It’s the toughest competition to win.

Not to forget that if Higuain wasn't such a big game bottler, theyd have won the World Cup.

Fine margins and all that.
 
Maradona won the World Cup in '78 over the Netherlands who were missing their best player in a tournament hosted by Argentina's military dictatorship. He won the World Cup in '86 by blatantly cheating and punching the ball into the back of the net. In terms of his club success, Barcelona bought him for a world record fee, and then Napoli bought him for a world record fee in the midst of a massive spending spree, and ultimately he won 2 Italian titles and no European Cups. He was an amazing player, I'm sure (obviously wasn't around to watch him in his prime, so all I have to go on his highlights), but I think it's really unfair to dismiss Messi's achievements because of the money poured into Barca and praise Maradona as though the money in his day didn't matter.
Maradona must be the best ever if he was able to win a World Cup that he didn’t even play in. That’s astonishing!
 
Messi is insanely good and 600 odd goals is ridiculous.
He's probably the player Maradona could have been if he hadn't been shoveling eye watering amounts of coke up his nose at any free moment and dabbling in hookers and organised crime.
 
Right, up on Netflix is a recently added film called Messi.

I couldn't get past the first two minutes as the format was quite bizarre; set in a restaurant, filled with star names from the past and present of World football, and all seated on different tables, some as a group, others just an intimate couple. One of the stars is Menotti ('78 Argentine manager) and the God himself Cruijff, needless to say I had a semi on as I settled back in my chair with my y-fronts around my ankles.

Well, fuck me, 30 seconds in and also in the restaurant is a table of mature women, now these women all scratch their heads when Cruijff, seated at a different table, starts to answer a question put to him about Messi. Their table is headed by some old wise owl know-it-all and he then tells the old bats that the man answering the questions is Cruijff, cut to a slow-motion montage of him doing his bits, his voice like some lecturing professor clearly loving it showing off to his now nodding gratefully table of beauties now delighted to know that the man who seconds earlier they had no idea who he was is a football legend.

Whilst Cruijff talks about Messi and pictures of him appear on screen as a boy dressed as a fireman, all the women now start getting animated and get all maternal and proud as if Messi is their son, there they all are exchanging and swapping loads of pictures of Messi as a boy................FUCK OFF!

Please can anyone tell me does this go on like this whole time? I've lost my semi but I'm shuffling around with my y-fronts still around my ankles with the hope that one of you can tell me that this is a great film and worth sticking with.

Thank you.
 
100 goals in the Champions League now.

Throughout his whole career he's either scored or assisted every 67 minutes.
 
100 goals in the Champions League now.

Throughout his whole career he's either scored or assisted every 67 minutes.

He’s a joy to watch. Barca have been my second team since I was 12, and I watch them whenever I can (if they ever played Spurs I’d obviously want Spurs to smash them). I genuinely find Messi mesmerising. I spend more time watching his movement off the ball than the actual build-up play. He combines unpredictability with an unbelievable technique (his assist and second goal tonight being good examples of that), and it’s devastating.

I also love his attitude. There’s a great YouTube compilation of Messi being fouled, kicked, having his shirt dragged off his back with two hands, but staying on his feet. Gestures like offering penalty kicks to teammates when on a hat trick, and even simply celebrating a teammate scoring (cough *Ronaldo* cough) show his great attitude.

My favourite footballer of all time. Such a shame he’s unlikely to win the World Cup, but in my opinion the CL is now the definitive football competition in terms of quality.

Watching him and Barca brush aside Chelsea was pure satisfaction.

Not sure about the ginger beard though :avbnaa:
 
I couldn't get past the first two minutes as the format was quite bizarre; set in a restaurant, filled with star names from the past and present of World football, and all seated on different tables, some as a group, others just an intimate couple.

Ha! This was my exact experience with this film. Within a minute I knew the format wasn't gonna suit. There are much better Messi docs I can just rewatch.
 
The modern day player draws a foul, he's protected and will get his foul, the opposing player barely needs to touch and as we have all seen so much of the contact nowadays is from the attacking player initiating it (all players look for this), IMO this is the biggest difference from Messi's day to Maradona's. (The only time he was left without anyone laying a hand on him was his dribble against England who all blew kisses to him as he went past).

I love Messi, he's a genius and is the best player of his generation, pisses on plastic face, but Maradona was better as he dealt with literally violence against him (go checkout his Barcelona day videos, the Copa del Ray final being an absolute classic for all the wrong reasons), the pitches he played on were rough as shit. He transcended the teams he played in, lifted the whole teams performance and carried mediocre teams on his shoulders. Messi has never had to do that, his Argentine squad has talent in all positions but he looks ordinary in it. From the day he made his debut for Barca they have been one of the greatest teams in the World with quality in every position.

BUT I urge you to watch this, or any highlight real of Maradona's for that matter. I'd be so bold as to say 80% of the attempted tackles to get the ball off him are yellow cards, the others reds.

I like this vid, apart from the appalling music, you can see time and again the physicality he was up against, don't focus on him, focus on the oppo.


Get scythed down, jump straight back up and carry on dribbling.... Fuckin A!

...THAT's fuckin football right there!
 
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Don't fool yourself. The 1986 WC is what made Maradona the legendary figure he is today, if he hadn't won that, then he wouldn't even have a quarter of the recognition he gets today. The 1970 WC also made Pele. 1998 WC made Zidane. 1988 Euros gave Gullit and Van Basten that legendary status, they have today.

In France, Platini is considered one of the greatest players to come out of that country but he's never held in a higher regard than Zidane because Platini had never won the WC, where as Zidane has. This isn't what I support or believe, but history judges players based on their international contributions, hate it or not.

You are conveniently ignoring the previously pointed out fact that the quality and prestige of the CL surpassed the WC some time ago.

...And your lack of example(s) post 98 only reaffirms the affornentioned point.
 
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