Progress

[Bergmattsson]

I'm fully behind Poch and I think we've made progress, but I'll give ol' sammyspurs the point about the odd rotation. Most recently he dropped Lamela at the back of two fine performances against Arse and Pool, and then he persevered with Townsy when he was mainly poor just to drop him completely after he scored for England. Also, Stambouli - what gives?

But these are minor criticisms IMO, but we have to be able to discuss it. No? What's the point of a message boards if we can't moan, critique and act like we know more than the manager? :llorisunsure:

 

[Anthony Beale]

Hmm lets see. I know who he thinks doesnt fit....Ade, Soldado, Capoue, Stambouli, Davies (unless forced), Fazio (unless forced), Vlad (unless forced), Kaboul, Dembele, Lennon and Holtby..

So I could probably deduct his favourites eh..

The main issue here is that his preferred players dont even suit his "system"...because we have abandoned it.

All of those players can be explained by, poor form, players in their position being better, being out on loan, or having a history of being disruptive that could suggest a reason why they weren't favoured.


Except maybe for Kaboul and Dembele. Considering Kaboul was made captain, and now is nowhere to be seen. Its safe to say something must have happened. There were rumours about Kaboul going behind the managers back, and i can buy that. If thats true then poch is justified in dropping him. Dembele has flattered to deceive since he got here. And seeing has playing him would mean dropping either Eriksen or Chadli (our 2nd and 3rd highest scorers this season) Or bentaleb (similar in many ways, i would play bentaleb myself) or mason, who offers something a bit different, but has shown a much better attitude and has a better work rate. Then theres paulinho, who has mostly been shit, i think definitely has more of a "game changing" effect than dembele.

Thats just looking at things from an outside point of view, rather than jumping to conclusions without considering the context. Who knows what goes on in the managers head, or the coaches head, or on the training ground.

 

[Simmo]

So many negative fans.

Baffles me how people don't see the progress. We outplayed the former Premier League Champions, a team who usually smash us.

We had a poor start and we had a poor March/April, largely due to getting knocked out of 2 cups at once. Don't let that distort your impression of the season. We've done a great job with what we've got.

We're more or less in the same position as last year, true. But....
Untied spent £170mil
Liverpool spent £110+ mil
Southampton spent £76 mil
Woolwich spent £105 mil

We spent £40 mill. Considering our rivals are all spending more than us, we've done incredibly well to hold our own with virtually no spending in a season of transition, while getting to a cup final and playing more games than anyone else in England.

The club is in good health, the scouting basis is impressive, the squad is young, players ARE improving, a new stadium in the next 3 years, a great youth academy with many prospects. Not sure what more people expect; for Levy to splash out £100 mil? How'd that go last time, remind me.

Although every transfer is a gamble to an extent, the £100m spent was done so riskily, none of it was spent on any player with Premier League experience and almost 30% on a kid with some possible potential who did not show many Premier League friendly assets in my opinion. Soldado you could argue was typical Spurs bad luck that he hasn't worked out, nobody would've thought it would be so bad. It's all been done to death, the fact they made a colossal fuck up of how they spent the money seems to now be an acceptable reason to some for us not to spend on any proven quality. As promising as the academy players are and the fact we've managed to hang onto 6th/7th with Mason and Bentaleb, that Kane has been brilliant and that Danny Rose has had some decent games and been better in the second half of the season will not be enough to retain a top 6 position, well 6th at best but not higher.

We're down on points this year when last year was a total car crash of new signings, two managers and it was immediately post-Bale. Others have invested heavily, will get their year-2 benefits and and will also spend again, as will some below us.

 

[Eskimo]

All managers need time.Or at least deserve it. Build a squad of players singing from the same hymn sheet, that kind of thing. I don't understanding your way of thinking tbh?

But are we seeing any evidence he deserves time? Or are we just saying lets give him time just for the sake of it as its something we haven't tried?

Look at southampton, they lost their manager and star players yet here we are 1 point better off than them?

With the squad we have you or i could manage this lot and get them to 6th/7th.

 

[Bazali]

Penalty claims, Aguero dived.

Sorry got to disagree!

Fazio clipped him and like all strikers nowadays he made the most of it and went down!

Definite penalty and Fazio should have been shown a red card!
If that had happened to Arry at the other end we'd all be moaning!

What Hugo was thinking about I don't know!

:llorisserious:

 

[Totti]

Sorry got to disagree!

Fazio clipped him and like all strikers nowadays he made the most of it and went down!

Definite penalty and Fazio should have been shown a red card!
If that had happened to Arry at the other end we'd all be moaning!

What Hugo was thinking about I don't know!

:llorisserious:

Just out of interest, when did Fazio clip him? I mean I saw Fazio touch Aguero on the shoulder, which was outside the box and then when Aguero got in the box he clearly tripped himself up by clipping the back of his own foot (which is what they are taught to do in Spain) - so it's either a red card for Fazio for denying a goalscoring opportunity and City get a free kick or Aguero should have been given a yellow for diving.

 

[Anthony Beale]

Sorry got to disagree!

Fazio clipped him and like all strikers nowadays he made the most of it and went down!

So it was a dive?

What Hugo was thinking about I don't know!

:llorisserious:

Probably "i better go clear that ba... oops I've slipped, hope that fella doesnt sco... oh he's dived"

 

[Anthony Beale]

Just out of interest, when did Fazio clip him? I mean I saw Fazio touch Aguero on the shoulder, which was outside the box and then when Aguero got in the box he clearly tripped himself up by clipping the back of his own foot (which is what they are taught to do in Spain) - so it's either a red card for Fazio for denying a goalscoring opportunity and City get a free kick or Aguero should have been given a yellow for diving.

Fazio does slightly touch ageuro;s foot. But I've watched it back loads, its definitely not enough to send him down, and definitely not in the way he went down. Definite dive... but "I've seen em given"

 

[Anthony Beale]

But are we seeing any evidence he deserves time? Or are we just saying lets give him time just for the sake of it as its something we haven't tried?

Look at southampton, they lost their manager and star players yet here we are 1 point better off than them?

With the squad we have you or i could manage this lot and get them to 6th/7th.

So you think we should get rid?
Generally i think the school of thought is, he's done well with the players he inherited, he could do even better if we let him get his own way.
We've had so many managers in the last 10 years. Don't you just want to give someone a fair chance? Redknapp had a fair chance and he got us into the champions league. If we keep jumping ship after 1 season, we're never going to have an identity, and we'll never have a manager able to to perform to his best. Its not like we're going to be getting Mourinho, Gaurdiola or anyone of that ilk, any time soon. So isn't it worth a shot giving someone a chance. If we go drastically backwards next season then we'll know he's not "the one" and we start again.

 

[Tomo]

Sorry got to disagree!

Fazio clipped him and like all strikers nowadays he made the most of it and went down!

Definite penalty and Fazio should have been shown a red card!
If that had happened to Arry at the other end we'd all be moaning!

What Hugo was thinking about I don't know!

:llorisserious:

The touch if it came was outside the box, Aguero carried on then clipped his feet together which is a well know diving tecnique, he knew what he was doing, he could have easily carried on. If that's what goes for penalties these days, I'm out.

 

[scott]

not sure what more people expect; for Levy to splash out £100 mil? How'd that go last time, remind me.

i hate when people use that as a reason u should never splash out. u can spend it way more wisely than we did last time. most people had hardly heard of players like lamela. & we went out & spent nearly 30m on him. we got 7 signings & none had played in the premiership before! i could go on & on with the basic errors they made. there poor transfer decisions doesnt mean u cant spend well. we gave o'hara a chance & look how that worked out! so lets not try youth again. what nonesense that logic is!

 

[Juicy Sushi]

Its funny because I could reverse that whole thing when it comes to blind happy clapping..

For me the things we have progressed from last season are: (note, to be fair to Poch, I will only take the comparison to last years train crash of a season)
Fitness
Belief
Work ethic
Some individual players


Stayed the same:
Outcasting of certain players for personal reasons
Too many games where we look diabolical and clueless
Poor subs
Final position (with any luck)
Lack of tactical plan
Consistency
Targets failed
Style of play (bar 2 or 3 games, and the odd spells sometimes)


Regressed:
Flexibility with working formations
Some individual players
Final position? Possibly

You can even look at progression and regression within this same season.
Before Christmas, I was impressed with:
Aggressive pressing
A distinct approach to the game
Changing up the team
Eriksen
Mason
Some flowing football

All of those things have regressed this year.


If you feel thats overtly negative, feel free to point out what you strongly disagree with.
Id say its a fair outlook on the season, personally.

I remember giving Carlito Brigante a good slating around the time we beat Chelsea, when he said our luck would soon run out and we were all blinded by Eriksen and Kane's late goals.
I dont think we were lucky at all...I think Poch had worked hard on the players and instilled something...but fuck me, if you cant see that its worn off since then and the likes of Eriksen look like someone whos just got back from The Somme, then I dont know.

By the way, what happened to Townsend? I dont rate him at all.....but remember when Poch did? And he would play every single week without fail? And then he scored for England and was on cloud nine?

So Poch dropped him, never to be seen again......

Actually, Townsend started several games after that, until he just didn't accomplish anything, and was then benched.

I see a definite tactical plan, but I find the problem is at this point the squad has some fatigue issues (Eriksen in particular is just gassed after the mileage he's racked up), and we still have the black hole in central midfield which distorts everything else. We press, but without a real CM who can do the breaking up/holding, we're too easily taken out of position and then gutted. This may be an inexperience thing (Mason and Bentaleb), or a talent thing (both are creative types, not guys who end opposition threats), and I don't think the solution is something you measure in tackles or interceptions, but it's a big problem. Neither Capoue or Stambouli have been able to show themselves to be that guy, and without one, the whole system struggles to function consistently.

There is definitely no plan B, and a lack of flexibility, but no manager has all the tools. I think the club has taken the position that Pochettino needs more guys who can deliver on plan A, rather than beating on him for not having a plan B.

I don't know if that will work out, or if we can actually get a whole squad who can do plan A (at least, not all in one window), but I hope we can, because when it works, it's a lot more fun than anything I've seen from AVB or Sherwood.

For me, it's progress over the two previous seasons. I would like it to be the start of a return to the level of the team from now 4-5 years ago, but that will only come in time, as it did then.

 

[Tomo]

i hate when people use that as a reason u should never splash out. u can spend it way more wisely than we did last time. most people had hardly heard of players like lamela. & we went out & spent nearly 30m on him. we got 7 signings & none had played in the premiership before! i could go on & on with the basic errors they made. there poor transfer decisions doesnt mean u cant spend well. we gave o'hara a chance & look how that worked out! so lets not try youth again. what nonesense that logic is!

I think there is a middle ground. We used to hate young players because we produced so few that when Kane came along last season and played well he was still called rubbish. We are in danger of doing the same with expensive purchases because of the Bale money spending.

It's not about how much a player costs but whether they are the right player which is why we need to improve our scouting which its looks like we are doing. Unfortunatly better players generally cost more and we shouldnt be afraid to spend if we feel it's essential in order to go up a level. Most top teams have 3-4 top class players, we have 1-2, that gap needs to be narrowed.

 

[Anthony Beale]

i hate when people use that as a reason u should never splash out. u can spend it way more wisely than we did last time. most people had hardly heard of players like lamela. & we went out & spent nearly 30m on him. we got 7 signings & none had played in the premiership before! i could go on & on with the basic errors they made. there poor transfer decisions doesnt mean u cant spend well. we gave o'hara a chance & look how that worked out! so lets not try youth again. what nonesense that logic is!

Whoa steady on. Lamela was one of the biggest young prospects in europe.
Also, they weren't trying to sign flops... when they signed the players they obviously thought in their heart of hearts they were doing the right thing.
Also, Its certainly not a reason to never spend 100million again.... but we don't need to do it every season. Or even every few seasons. Maybe every 5-10 seasons maybe.

 

[Greaves357_bestever]

We've made progress in some areas, gone backwards in others. Overall, for me it's been a disappointing season and Sherwood looks like a better manager than Poch. Yep, that's the one who got called 'dim' and 'clueless' and worse by so many of the internet's footballing gurus.

Well Sherwood's PPG was higher with Spurs than Poch and he's beat him head to head three in a row, so I don't know what that makes Poch if 'Tim is so dim' (Which of course Sherwood isn't and getting Villa to an FA Cup Final is a better achievement than us getting to the League Cup final, and I suspect Villa won't put in such a limp display as we did gallingly v Chelsea),

 

[SouthernCross10]

Which season have you enjoyed more?
I think that's the main question to ask,

this season has been much better than last.

 

[shawry1882]

Mmmm.... Greavsie is Tim better than Poch, not sure. Certainly you pointed out PPG and Tim's Villa experience looks impressive. Seems to me Tim is a great motivator, my corncern is he a temporary manager ? Whereas Poch gives me more hope over a longer term.
I think Tim was not doing our club brand many favours and Levy would not like that, whereas Poch gives us a more dignified position.
Poch still is not there yet, still has many things to learn and he also needs the squad finetuned to implement his and Levy's strategy.

As for progress - well yeah, but only in respect of identifying players to moved and those coming in. Our points down on where we need to be, but I would love to look at goals scored, ppg up until end Nov and then same since. I have the feeling our performances have improved throughout the year.

 

[Simmo]

We have one of the top 5 WORST defences in the league. We've generally been flaky at the back but this is regression in a very key area.

Lots of back slapping about not folding to 5 or 6-0 against City is laughable, we have been done by 3 to Chelsea, Scousers and United and 4 to City earlier with two losses to them.

 

[Astro]

It is a bit odd with Poch being a defender in his time.... that our defence leaks so much.

Am I wrong in remembering a stat that showed Southampton under Poch leaking a lot of goals too?

Regardless, Poch seems to tick a lot of boxes, he impresses in a lot of areas and it can only be fair to give a fair assessment after next season, though we may / possibly should see out at least 2 more seasons with him as the managerial merry-go-round we've been through needs to slow down

 

[Pairsy1882]

That's great but have you ever thought about getting a hobby to stop you obsessing about Spurs so much?

Why would anyone want to stop obsessing about Spurs? Spurs are my obsession.