I think this is what he heard.
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Supporters Rudiger claims he heard monkey chants
- Thread starter sudoku
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I’ve seen him claim to be mixed race, but never “black”?
Mixed race could mean his grandad was Irish. I realise you have beef with him and vice versa, but these personal squabbles (especially in the Spurs section of the forum) are pretty tiresome Baz. If you need to continue the argument then can you wait for him to come out of the bin and take it to the bog? I’m sure you don’t need to drum up support to prop up your personal position.
Hope you’ve had a good Christmas and that you haven’t had to spend too much time in hospital waiting rooms in the course of your charity work.
I think he's played a card to mask his cheating.
You can't go around making accusations like that on Social media unless your damn well sure and I can't see how he could of been, he hasn't gone out of his way to do anything other than throw fuel on the flames, I've no time for the lying cunt.
I appreciate your post and I do not support the "he made it up" approach, only he knows what he heard or miss-heard and only he will ever know 100%.
I took this paragraph because in my view you're plain wrong - Spurs have already been branded a racist club - Spurs day of Shame - Spurs fans Racist abuse - PFA "dismayed and disgusted" - all the talking heads on MOTD - the world can't un-see that guilty verdict.
The reputation damage is done, media headlines have already made their mark, just as if you were wrongly accused of a serious crime you would now want the opportunity to clear your name.
Because this is alleged racism any defence by Spurs fans is treated as an attack on Rudiger, but that's simply not the case. If he heard it, miss-heard it, or even made it up that's all on him. That doesn't mean those accused can't defend themselves.
Spurs should come out and make an affirmative statement saying "after an exhaustive investigation by the club, the FA, and the police into accusations made by Rudiger of "monkey chants" no evidence of racist chanting has been uncovered, Spurs and it's fans have thus been cleared of all charges" .... to say the evidence was 'inconclusive' in my book that's just a cop-out.
A strong 'not-guilty' statement from Spurs would get the appropriate media coverage, and more importantly it would show we are not racist, nor are we prepared to be labelled as such. Have some balls DL defend your supporters a bit harder ....
The alternative is to say and do nothing, it's yesterday's news ... guess that's the easy option.
Witness Statement re: Antonio Rudiger Incident
This was received this morning, it is a letter providing a witness statement from a fan in the thick of the crowd where the allegation made by Chelsea's Antonio Rudiger focuses.
theboyhotspur.com
Witness in the crowd (possibly in the section that Rudiger thinks he heard racist chants from) suggests that its very likely that Rudiger probably misheard chants.
I am still not clear whether we are talking about racial chanting involving more than 1 person or monkey noises by an individual or maybe 2 people. I think by now the cameras would have picked out any gestures depicted by Rudiger.
Many posters have stated the chanting going on at the time which was not racist but could have been misheard.
If just 1/2 people making the noises he must have good hearing as a fan stated a few pages back as you need to be near the pitch for a player to hear.
I do dispute if it turns out to be 1/2 people that it necessarily brings the club into dispute. Many posters frequently complain of tourists being in the ground and I have taken guests who are not Tottenham supporters. Unless every club state that to go and watch a football match you must be an avid fan, they cannot be responsible for every fan. There is even a thread at present asking how to get tickets from someone in the US and becoming members is suggested. It would not be difficult for any of us to become members of another Football club and that would not make us supporters of that club.
When I went recently I was so far back no player could have heard anything I shouted and no paper cup thrown would reach the pitch. Only those close to the pitch could be heard and maybe say only season ticket holders should be allowed these seats and they should be made responsible for anyone that used their ticket. Would get rid of touts and anyone buying on ticket exchange should have to have been members for a while. It would be bad enough if a Spurs supporter was accused of racism or threw the paper cup but worse if it was a tourist that was guilty.
Many posters have stated the chanting going on at the time which was not racist but could have been misheard.
If just 1/2 people making the noises he must have good hearing as a fan stated a few pages back as you need to be near the pitch for a player to hear.
I do dispute if it turns out to be 1/2 people that it necessarily brings the club into dispute. Many posters frequently complain of tourists being in the ground and I have taken guests who are not Tottenham supporters. Unless every club state that to go and watch a football match you must be an avid fan, they cannot be responsible for every fan. There is even a thread at present asking how to get tickets from someone in the US and becoming members is suggested. It would not be difficult for any of us to become members of another Football club and that would not make us supporters of that club.
When I went recently I was so far back no player could have heard anything I shouted and no paper cup thrown would reach the pitch. Only those close to the pitch could be heard and maybe say only season ticket holders should be allowed these seats and they should be made responsible for anyone that used their ticket. Would get rid of touts and anyone buying on ticket exchange should have to have been members for a while. It would be bad enough if a Spurs supporter was accused of racism or threw the paper cup but worse if it was a tourist that was guilty.
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I'm not of said ilk, but there's a distinct difference between feigning something and wanting it to have actually happened.
Well, Amazon are certainly getting their money’s worth out of this documentary aren’t they? Throw in plenty of controversy (Poch, Rudigergate etc)
For me, there are 3 possibles
1. Rudiger was cheating and trying to break up a decent spell of pressure.
2. Some wanker did actually make the noises deliberately at him.
3. He misheard chants of “cheat” or boos after his antics and in the caldron of noise had to mimic what he heard to draw attention to it & make sure it was duly noted by everyone.
He’s a fucking cheating twat, & that’s for sure.
There is zero evidence that anyone racially abused him. Thousands of personal cameras in the stadium, hundreds of Other cameras (stadium, police, media) catching every moment. And nothing. Not one camera pointing at the person(s) making monkey noises.
So that leaves mistake.
I would give the cheating cunt the benefit of the doubt (and it won’t ever be proven otherwise) by saying he misheard. There is no doubt he would have been getting dogs abuse for his pathetic behaviour as a result of Sonny’s stupid reaction. A combination of boos & shouts of “cheat” could quite easily have been taken to be racist chanting. And I certainly wouldn’t criticise him for demonstrating what he believed he heard to get his point across through the cacophony.
But still not a single still image or running footage amongst the thousands of photos and running cameras suggests to me that this News is next weeks chip papers.
For me, there are 3 possibles
1. Rudiger was cheating and trying to break up a decent spell of pressure.
2. Some wanker did actually make the noises deliberately at him.
3. He misheard chants of “cheat” or boos after his antics and in the caldron of noise had to mimic what he heard to draw attention to it & make sure it was duly noted by everyone.
He’s a fucking cheating twat, & that’s for sure.
There is zero evidence that anyone racially abused him. Thousands of personal cameras in the stadium, hundreds of Other cameras (stadium, police, media) catching every moment. And nothing. Not one camera pointing at the person(s) making monkey noises.
So that leaves mistake.
I would give the cheating cunt the benefit of the doubt (and it won’t ever be proven otherwise) by saying he misheard. There is no doubt he would have been getting dogs abuse for his pathetic behaviour as a result of Sonny’s stupid reaction. A combination of boos & shouts of “cheat” could quite easily have been taken to be racist chanting. And I certainly wouldn’t criticise him for demonstrating what he believed he heard to get his point across through the cacophony.
But still not a single still image or running footage amongst the thousands of photos and running cameras suggests to me that this News is next weeks chip papers.
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I appreciate the post. There's several things to unpack here.
First, is the idea that a defense of Spurs fan is not an attack on Rudiger. This is true. But this thread is also full of people who are flat out attacking Rudiger. Let's be fair, you are one of them. You have not reached the despicable depths of calling him a liar, for which I have put probably 8 or 9 people on Ignore for doing, but you have talked at length about the way he's conducted himself, and have done so in a very harsh manner. IMO, you have been unfair with Rudiger. He really didn't do anything wrong, and I think when people attack Rudiger, it creates the atmosphere where if someone else hears racist abuse, they may be afraid to come forward with it because of the backlash Rudiger has received.
Second, there is a fundamental difference between how you and I see our relationship with Tottenham Hotspur and Rudiger's accusations. It looks to me like you see Rudiger's accusations as an attack against all Spurs fans, and thus you yourself are on trial here. As the accused, it is your duty to defend yourself from these accusations.
I do not view it like this. I see Rudiger's accusations as aimed at one or two idiots, which is what he explicitly said. I am a (fanatical) supporter of Tottenham Hotspur, but my identity is still separate from the club and from other supporters. An accusation against other Spurs supporters is not an accusation against me. I am not on trial. Whether Rudiger's accusations prove true or not, it has no bearing on whether I am racist. I am not concerned that suddenly people will start thinking I'm a racist because I support Spurs. I have certainly never met a Chelsea supporter and gone into the meeting thinking "Chelsea have a dodgy history with this stuff, he might be a racist!" Now I'm an American, and so I meet less football fans and so obviously we might have different experiences with this stuff.
This brings me to my third point which is that I don't really care what the football media say about us. Of course I'd prefer they get it right, but football media can only be taken half-seriously on a good day. I expect good journalism on politics and world events, not in football. They are just trying to sell papers or clicks, and I don't worry that suddenly this one event and the misleading coverage is going to make people think all Spurs supporters are racists. It's a silly idea really.
Fourth, I think there's some middle ground to be found between merely saying "we could not find any evidence" and "we are cleared of all charges." I say this for a couple of reasons. One, I want to reiterate that I do not see Spurs as on trial here. So this desire to say "cleared of all charges" is really only applicable if somebody is actually on trial, which they're not. Nobody has been identified as of yet. All Spurs supporters are not on trial. Spurs the football club are not on trial. Second, I do not want to create a precedent where a footballer says "well I'm sure not going to report racist abuse, Spurs will just cover it up." I'm not saying Spurs is doing this, in fact I think they take it seriously, but that could easily be the perception from a black footballer if we just say "cleared of all charges." In fact, Rudiger's tweets suggest he expects the incident to just be forgotten about himself. But I also understand Spurs' supporters like you who do feel like the team is on trial want a little more than "we could not find any evidence." Perhaps something like "Spurs takes accusations of racism very seriously. We are committed to doing our part to ensure that racism is not a part of the Tottenham Hotspur experience for our supporters, our players, or our opponents and their supporters. After an exhaustive look at the evidence including [x], [y], and [z], we cannot find any evidence that any Spurs supporter was involved in racist abuse toward Rudiger. While we cannot say with 100% certainty that no racist abuse occurred, it is our belief that it did not based on the current evidence. We recognize that in a noisy environment like Tottenham Hotspur Stadium, sounds can be misheard, and we believe that is likely the case here. Nonetheless, we would like to thank Rudiger for alerting the referee to what he believed he heard, and want to continue to encourage any player or supporter who believes they have seen or heard racist abuse to report it immediately."
You clearly have a well thought out perspective - we just disagree
Point 1 - Rudiger did nothing wrong - well let's analysis that, Rudiger very publicly accused Spurs fans off making monkey chants. Now accusing someone of racism is right up there with child abuse and sexual assault, totally and rightly unacceptable ... so you shouldn't make those charges lightly. But let's assume that Rudiger 100% believes that Spurs fans did make monkey chants, so what did he do? He himself did a monkey impression in front of millions of viewers, an impression that has since appeared in newspapers around the world. Then, after having time to reflect on his actions, he walked off the pitch at 90 minutes and jumped straight on social media repeating his accusations ... Don't forget he knows exactly how this type of allegation plays out, he's made them before. So without in anyway doubting his belief that he heard what he thought he heard, his reactions borne out of his own experience was always going to cause a media frenzy, he must have known that, and of course that's what happened ... so I ask you did he really not do anything 'wrong'? could he have in fact handled it a whole lot better just as Sonny does almost every week?
Point 2 - Rudiger's attack is an attack against our club - he levied the same accusations against Roma fans and it was Roma the club that was investigated. The media didn't say "Two fans Shame" but "Spurs Shame" the Talking Heads on TV all called it a 'Spurs' problem not a 'loan fan who could have supported anyone' problem ... go look at any of a hundred headlines and show me just one that doesn't lead with Spurs over an unknown Individual Fan. We again just disagree, whatever Rudiger says now at the time it was an accusation against unnamed Spurs fans .... when you attack one of us you attack all of us, Spurs are on trial make no mistake about that.
Point 3 - Media is not irrelevant, media informs the world especially bad media. When a football fan now thinks of Spurs will he think "racists"? ... you might think it's a silly idea but it's not, Chelsea already have that stench, are you happy with us being put in a box with them?
Point 4 - Fair enough as through points 1-3 you clearly don't see Spurs or Spurs fans as the accused so why the need to defend ... again I very strongly disagree. If we let mud stick we will end up being branded as a racist club when, as all lifelong Spurs fans know, we are an incredibly tolerant club on every level, race, religion, sex, whatever we really don't care all that much. Your idea for a Spurs statement is very creditable, indeed if they put that out I would be very pleased indeed. Let's hope someone with influence reads your post and makes it happen
I'm not pretending we haven't had or indeed still don't have issues, we do. There have been racist, homophobic, and sexual chants that were so wrong it's hard to imagine they ever happened, but that was then this is now ... if you still aren't sure might I suggest you go to Spurs and start doing monkey impressions, see just for yourself how the fans react, I'll guarantee you will regret it.
You’re taking this too personally.
I will begin with a question.....
Why do black people think so poorily of monkey's?
While many will see lions, as a great specimen of a beast,if the chants or remonstrations was quacking like a duck, and shuffling across the floor, would black people be just as offended.
Animals have survived thru the centuries based on various kinds of intelligences, the fact the we as humans have been fortuitously blessed , by means of machines and technology, doesn't make us any greater.
If the playing field was levelled, the outcome of exchanges would be alot closer.
A simple tweak in your thinking can do wonders in shaping future outcomes. You have chosen, yes you to interprept the data communicated in only one way, just like on the streets people use slang words, that have a alternative meaning to the one they were originally bestowed.
Why do black people think so poorily of monkey's?
While many will see lions, as a great specimen of a beast,if the chants or remonstrations was quacking like a duck, and shuffling across the floor, would black people be just as offended.
Animals have survived thru the centuries based on various kinds of intelligences, the fact the we as humans have been fortuitously blessed , by means of machines and technology, doesn't make us any greater.
If the playing field was levelled, the outcome of exchanges would be alot closer.
A simple tweak in your thinking can do wonders in shaping future outcomes. You have chosen, yes you to interprept the data communicated in only one way, just like on the streets people use slang words, that have a alternative meaning to the one they were originally bestowed.
Been taking all things Spurs far too personally for decades - even from 6,000 miles away
Fair enough, as you said, you and I just have different perspectives on the issue. I still think you are being way too hard on Rudiger, especially in regard to his his imitating a monkey and pointing to his ear to indicate he heard monkey sounds, but in terms of feeling like the accusations are an attack on all Spurs supporters and thus an attack on you, if that's your perspective, then everything else you have said follows logically.
I'll answer that by posing one of my own, why do white people compare black people to monkeys?
Is it to insult them?
Or to compliment them? What do you think?
A compliment and insult are one of the same thing, it's the tone and delivery that adds gravitaze to the spoken word.
For example if i said to my child, 'there's a good boy', the child could accept it as being praised or alternatively being patronised.
In relation to is it a compliment or insult, as i stipulated, YOU have the unearthing ability to choose, someone saying something does not make it so. The very essense of science is built on the notion of an interpretation based on current evidence.
For example if i said to my child, 'there's a good boy', the child could accept it as being praised or alternatively being patronised.
In relation to is it a compliment or insult, as i stipulated, YOU have the unearthing ability to choose, someone saying something does not make it so. The very essense of science is built on the notion of an interpretation based on current evidence.
You’re obviously mad, but that’s how you’d talk to a dog, not a child. Please say you don’t have children.