-
The Fighting Cock is a forum for fans of Tottenham Hotspur Football Club. Here you can discuss Spurs latest matches, our squad, tactics and any transfer news surrounding the club. Registration gives you access to all our forums (including 'Off Topic' discussion) and removes most of the adverts (you can remove them all via an account upgrade). You're here now, you might as well...
Latest Spurs videos from Sky Sports
For the record i have always been a keen advocate of safe standing and have been since it was first mooted.
But to suggest it would have prevented Hillsborough is laughable in the extreme, and displays a clear failure to undertsand what happened that day and previously with us and Leeds.
but you carry on with the snide remarks.
But to suggest it would have prevented Hillsborough is laughable in the extreme, and displays a clear failure to undertsand what happened that day and previously with us and Leeds.
but you carry on with the snide remarks.
Gaz the problem with your viewpoint there is that it follows that had Hillsborough been all-seater that wouldn't have made any difference either.
Unless you believe that too in which case, carry on.
Unless you believe that too in which case, carry on.
But that ISN'T what safe standing is. One of the main ideas in the whole thing is that you don't over crowd the stands. It's not just a style of terrace or seating. Hillsborough happened because the terrace was overcrowded, that would not be allowed to happen under safe standing. Ergo, the disaster would not happen under these circumstances.
Hillsborough happened for a number of reasons. Some of them being:
1. Thanks to the Sheff Wednesday owner's extreme negligence, The ground did not have the required safety certificates. They were years out of date
2. For some reason the FA still allowed a showcase game to be played there
3. Appalling crowd management on the day inside and outside the ground by the police and stadium officials
4. unruly football fans who didn't have tickets trying to get into one end
5. Terracing and fencing that provides an environment where the above 4 points can cause the most damage possible.
It was a perfect storm of negligence and stupidity.
It would take an act of extreme human negligence for this to happen in this day and age. Ticket sales are far more regulated than in the 80s. They are also prohibitively expensive for any games that would see a crowd of that magnitude descend on a game. I.e. You wouldn't get thousands of people rocking up forcing their way in. Security is tighter, policing methods have generally improved, we have CCTV at every ground. I just can't see how another Hillsborough incident would be possible, safe standing or otherwise.
Now addressing the spectators who actually have tickets and are in the ground, for me the rail seats look like a safe way to watch a match standing up without the danger of crowd surges. Some of the designs even have foldaway seating options.
The only thing that would need to be improved for me would be the access to and from grounds. E.g. Wembley way can get pretty uncomfortable when leaving the stadium, although it has improved. If you suddenly put safe standing in the park lane end tomorrow, allowing an extra thousand or so people into the ground, the concourse at half time would be a fucking nightmare.
TLDR: the monumental fuck up of Hillsborough should not automatically be an argument against safe standing solutions in 2014 onwards. It's becoming less and less relevant in my opinion.
1. Thanks to the Sheff Wednesday owner's extreme negligence, The ground did not have the required safety certificates. They were years out of date
2. For some reason the FA still allowed a showcase game to be played there
3. Appalling crowd management on the day inside and outside the ground by the police and stadium officials
4. unruly football fans who didn't have tickets trying to get into one end
5. Terracing and fencing that provides an environment where the above 4 points can cause the most damage possible.
It was a perfect storm of negligence and stupidity.
It would take an act of extreme human negligence for this to happen in this day and age. Ticket sales are far more regulated than in the 80s. They are also prohibitively expensive for any games that would see a crowd of that magnitude descend on a game. I.e. You wouldn't get thousands of people rocking up forcing their way in. Security is tighter, policing methods have generally improved, we have CCTV at every ground. I just can't see how another Hillsborough incident would be possible, safe standing or otherwise.
Now addressing the spectators who actually have tickets and are in the ground, for me the rail seats look like a safe way to watch a match standing up without the danger of crowd surges. Some of the designs even have foldaway seating options.
The only thing that would need to be improved for me would be the access to and from grounds. E.g. Wembley way can get pretty uncomfortable when leaving the stadium, although it has improved. If you suddenly put safe standing in the park lane end tomorrow, allowing an extra thousand or so people into the ground, the concourse at half time would be a fucking nightmare.
TLDR: the monumental fuck up of Hillsborough should not automatically be an argument against safe standing solutions in 2014 onwards. It's becoming less and less relevant in my opinion.
This needs to happen.
Ha ha - fucking hilarious
Arcspace disagrees with you - with his obvious profound knowledge of the safe standing arrangements in front of his TV 12,000 miles away.
Bwahahahaha
don't let that bother you - people who have never been to sheffield wednesdays ground, let alone being there on the day feel perfectly at ease abusing people with a greater knowledge than them and making pompous speeches as to who is to blame and the reasons for it happening.
It says St Michael on my underwear - and thats not true!
as a matter of interest, what makes "safe standing" qualify as such?
Is it something to do with the barrier system, to prevent crowd surges, or is it because you have an actual allocated spot on the terrace to stand on (that must be a pisser if you get a season ticket behind some giant with flatulence)
I have seen the stuff in Germany which can translate easily into seating, not sure if thats in the spirit of standing at a football match to me though.
Is there some offered "standard" that is being touted as the future of standing in the UK, or will it be down to clubs to choose their own systems?
There are rails to prevent surges, and you have an allocated place to stand, rather than the old "stand where you want". With allocations, fans can be stewarded efficiently and effectively to make sure no one is where they shouldn't be.
Works a treat in Germany. 'The Yellow Wall' at Signal Iduna Park should be the envy of every fan, and I don't see them reporting deaths or injuries.
I hope it works, as a committed advocate of sitting down to watch football, to have a bunch of silly fuckers stood up in front of me all the time gets on my tits. I don't see the benefit of paying for a seat and then standing in front of it.
I do however recognise why people like to do it, and therefore firmly believe that there should be areas that allow people to do so, but please - don't mislead yourself into believing that "every" fan wants to stand up.
I think its offensive that all of great Britain has to be pushed into a situation because of the pressure group behind the bereaved of the Hillsborough disaster, particularly when it was human behaviour that caused the problem, which then highlighted the deficiencies in the terracing where the deaths occurred.
I wonder whether the loudest noise isn't from the families of the dead, but the people (and their families) who pushed from the back, to assuage their guilt.
That's exactly the point Mick. Have an area which is clearly identified as standing room only. Appeases those who want to stand and those who don't at the same time. Everybody wins.
Which makes it even more bonkers that we can't have it.
Which makes it even more bonkers that we can't have it.
By booking in the safe standing area, you would be obliged to stand. If you sat, I'd suggest that would be your own fault. I don't know how it works for kids - I imagine the steepness of the stand would play a part, but at Craven Cottage last season the whole away end stood for the entire game (no deaths I'm glad to report) and I didn't see children suffering from a poor view I must say.
I have no doubt not every fan wants to stand. I've seen the West and North stands at WHL on match day.
Just to clarify, the rail-seats, they'd either be ALL locked in the upright position or ALL seating.
You wouldn't have some people sitting on them and some standing; it would be all or nothing. The point of them being there is to allow for certain competitions requiring all-seater.
So, for example, a domestic league game would have them all locked up for standing only, whereas a Europa League game still stipulates all-seater and so they're all unlocked for sitting on.
You wouldn't have some people sitting on them and some standing; it would be all or nothing. The point of them being there is to allow for certain competitions requiring all-seater.
So, for example, a domestic league game would have them all locked up for standing only, whereas a Europa League game still stipulates all-seater and so they're all unlocked for sitting on.
They had the Grange End at Cardiff when they were playing in Ninian Park a few years ago that was safe standing, basically a four foot railing in front of each row to prevent surges. Atmosphere generated by the 2000 or so people in there was far greater than any I've seen since in any stadium, absolutely brilliant. Would love to get it back in football again, basically if you're going there you're going there to bounce about and chant your tits off, 1882 standing area would be fantastic.
yeah, I get that - the name of the area being the giveaway. In the bad old days, the kids got shoved to the front, or they sat on the crush barrier with their Dad stood behind them.
The reason I think standing areas suck, is because I'm a short arse, and sods law says I'd get some 6'6" gorilla in front of me. Seats work for me as most peoples height is in their leg length.
#WarwickDavis