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Transfers Summer 2021 - Transfer Thread

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Not sure this theory holds. The ESL would have had negligible impact on FIFA, it was UEFA who were getting shafted by it. In fact there were rumblings that though FIFA publicly backed UEFA against it, in private wouldn't have minded a weakened UEFA.

I'm talking in terms of Qatar/PSGs PR (rather than FIFA's desire or otherwise for an EFL).....

It's all about image rather than money..... Whilst they don't want any more bad press in the run up to the WC, they 100% would have wanted to be part of an elitist club football competition. In fact the level of prestige that they aspire to depends on it (an ESL) given Ligue Un's 2nd tier status as a league.

It's inevitable PSG would have been perceived as a driving force behind the ESL for this reason.... The WC corruption and workers and societal rights storms etc. would be more than enough unwanted heat for now.....

.....Which is why I'd expect a fresh push for an ESL in 2023 or 2024.



(FWIW; I too would suspect that FIFA would see benefits in the weakening of UEFA.)
 
I'm talking in terms of Qatar/PSGs PR (rather than FIFA's desire or otherwise for an EFL).....

It's all about image rather than money..... Whilst they don't want any more bad press in the run up to the WC, they 100% would have wanted to be part of an elitist club football competition. In fact the level of prestige that they aspire to depends on it (an ESL) given Ligue Un's 2nd tier status as a league.

(FWIW; I too would suspect that FIFA would see benefits in the weakening of UEFA.)
It really was strange they decided to buy PSG as opposed to one of the London clubs. Just as large a market, in a far more prestigious league.
 
It really was strange they decided to buy PSG as opposed to one of the London clubs. Just as large a market, in a far more prestigious league.

Chavs & City already in the EPL..... To much already here to detract from their shine I'd guess.

Juve? AC? Inter? Even one of the big 2 Spanish clubs could have been the way to go.....

I do suspect there's a slight lack of understanding of football culture too though(*)... They probably just saw Paris as a major, glitzy capital city with a club that could be seen to rise from the ashes.... The game-plan is obviously to dominate at European level, but it does seem like there was little understanding that they'd have such little prestige without winning a competition each year that still requires a degree of luck.



(*Bit like ManCity/Arabs..... Why Manchester? Utd. as a brand isn't going anywhere. Why not buy Liverpool instead and resurrect them to the might of the 70s/80s?)
 
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A per reports so far:

1. He wants RM (boyhood fan blah).
2. PSG have been trying to get him to renew for over a year and have done everything they can to convince him (inc. bringing in Messi).
3. RM have been gearing a move up with him behind the scenes since before he even signed for PSG.

He's done everything he can at PSG..... Apart from win the CL and he either ticks that box this year with Messi or succumbs to the fact that even with Messi they couldn't get it done and he could be waiting forever.

No guarantees until pen is put to paper, but ultimately PSG have proved they are absolutely prepared to lose him on a free.



No trf fee means RM can pander to every last whim of his to get him.

They don't have the sheer wealth of PSG, but they'll still make him obscenely rich whilst providing the one thing PSG can't buy.... A bigger stage from week to week.



Yes... And you're fundamentally wrong because of the origins of the money that provided the footing and revenue generation that they are only now able to exploit.

You ignore this time and time again (let's not have the same conversation).



(Ahhh, shit! ....Looks like we are having that conversation again then.)


.....This is nothing more that a token acknowledgement from you when in fact it is what fundamentally separates the clubs (on social, moral and economic levels). Ultimately, you're happy to draw a line under this stone cold fact and just see us as the same from here on in as if how they got to the dance is no longer relevant for no other reason other than it's already happened.

I'm sorry... It doesn't just wash away.... People should not forget/ignore it or draw a line under it.... In a very specific way, to do so is to be complicit in the very sports washing they seek

By your token, you have no real reason to harbour a rivalry with Woolwich beyond some compliant notion of 'red shirt bad' when in fact the truth runs far deeper.



Nope...... Not unless you're preaching to me the idea that the history and culture of our club and the ethics of the game have no meaning/value and that all this (the game and it's roots) amount to nothing more than some numbers on a spreadsheet.

.....You seem totally subservient by the Sports = Entertainment = Business ethos.

I counter:

Sport = competition(*)
Club, culture & ethics = the people & the soul.

.......These are the things worth clinging to in whatever's left of our increasingly shit-stained game.

(*Not entertainment..... Of course, a surrounding industry sells it as such; but to draw a parallel: Art is still art; no matter how much a painting is sold for and how many people profit from it's sale.)

Sidenote: This is where those in our midst that prattle on about "spreadsheet fans" and "Levy-lovers" highlight their ignorance.... Most people that think like me are in fact 'romantics' who will be the very last to jump on board the train when the last trip to Cortporate Football-ville eventually leaves the station.




ESL would (will!) suck.... Corporate football sucks...... Well yeh. Your principals are apparently far less resistant to the the New (Football) World Order than mine though. Whilst I don't disagree with your final passage, I'm not sure of it's direct relevance to your insistence upon whitewashing the unsavory, dubious means, methods and motives that it took to get the petro-clubs to the big table.

As noted above; you're all too happy to draw a line and afford them the legitimacy that they crave; the very thing that their deeper motive seeks.... "Hey, we know it's immoral... We know blood has been shed and people have been abused, but hey never mind; you're here now... Welcome aboard"........ Fuck that(*).

I know things are too far gone to put the genie back inside the bottle, but 'Spurs = Just a less rich version of City/Chavs/PSG'???? .....Again; fuck that(*).


(*No offense, like.)
Cheers for the response, I always appreciate a good discussion, I think it would be more productive to just add a couple of notes rather than going point-by-point here.

- Honestly, hand to my heart, I genuinely believe the class of person represented by Joe Lewis is a more malign influence on the world than the class of person represented by Sheikh Mansour (to the extent they're distinguishable, which again, I really largely think they aren't). Not to in any way absolve the many moral horrors of the Gulf monarchies, but the lawless global hegemony of finance capital destroys and immiserates the human race on a scale the little tinpot sheikhs can't hold a candle to.

That isn't working backwards from a message board argument about Daniel Levy's management of Spurs, it's a sincere reflection of me being a left-wing nutjob, I promise you.

- But I don't think how the owners got their money and how they operate their clubs as businesses have anything to do with one another. The whole sportswashing thing is fake. The objection is solely down to the way those clubs distorted the competitive fabric of the game, and would be not one iota different even if the money flowed from the purest of charities. Which is good, because the way they distorted the game is very bad and deserves to be called out and opposed on its own terms! That IS the actual problem!

- Above all I want to be extremely clear that I could not have described my underlying values better than "sport=competition". That is the absolute distilled essence of it, I totally agree. And I don't think it's just you and me, I think the fascinating thing about the Levy Wars is that the real crazy partisans on both sides are really both driven by the same disgust with corporate football, and neither side can understand why the other looks at Levy as the avatar of the thing they oppose. It is self-evident to me that Levy's Spurs are the sine qua non of the corporatization of the game. The penury toward the squad (read: labor) isn't an exception from that, it is quintessential to it.

I dunno, I just think I'm right, and I abandoned all doubt when the ESL thing came through. That was the mask off moment for ENIC's values. They will burn the game to the ground to avoid competing.
 
The gameplan is obviously to dominate at European level but it does seem like there was little understanding that they'd have such little prestige without winning a competition that still requires a degree of luck each year,



(*Bit like ManCity/Arabs..... Why Manchester? Utd. as a brand isn't going anywhere. Why not buy Liverpool instead and resurrect them to the might of the 70s/80s?)
Again, their game has always been to transcend the national leagues. Levy, Khaldoon Al Mubarak, Joel Glazer, Florentino Perez, it's all the same long-term vision.

These guys don't give a shit about Liverpool's might in the 70's, that just makes them an overpriced asset relative to their market size. The traditions and history of the game that make the supporters willing to open their wallets for it are an oil well waiting to be sucked dry.

City had a big stadium, were in a big football-mad city, had access to the PL golden goose, and were available on the cheap. PSG were the sole big club in a global commercial capital, had access to the CL golden goose, and were available on the cheap. They are in this to make money, the misunderstanding of that point is so central to the delusions around this stuff.
 
Make no mistake; the only reason PSG weren't on-board with the ESL is because of Qatar being in bed with FIFA over the WC...... Same as Munich albeit different reasons. Commercially and profile wise; Ligue Un and the Bundesliga ain't worth shit to them by comparison.

I think FCB & RM have been operating on fear and desperation.... Hence the poor logic and ham-fisted explanations behind such actions and transfer dealings. Desperation to cling to a status that they likely won't win back...... Even in the advent of an ESL there'd still be a financial pecking order that they'd struggle to keep up with.
They were inflating the market for years getting the best players from all around the world and when they couldn't afford it anymore they risked going bust. English clubs had to take the Spanish getting their best players and decided not to overspend.
 
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Again, their game has always been to transcend the national leagues. Levy, Khaldoon Al Mubarak, Joel Glazer, Florentino Perez, it's all the same long-term vision.

These guys don't give a shit about Liverpool's might in the 70's, that just makes them an overpriced asset relative to their market size. The traditions and history of the game that make the supporters willing to open their wallets for it are an oil well waiting to be sucked dry.

City had a big stadium, were in a big football-mad city, had access to the PL golden goose, and were available on the cheap. PSG were the sole big club in a global commercial capital, had access to the CL golden goose, and were available on the cheap. They are in this to make money, the misunderstanding of that point is so central to the delusions around this stuff.

PSG, City & Chavs(*) aren't in it to make money... It's about prestige and sports-washing (see current discussion elsewhere in thread)......

(Why did you exclude Abramovic from your above list, I wonder...... Could it be the 1.7bn 'ahem' loan on their books that serves to shatter your theory?)

The point i was making about Liverpool (also see the Italian teams I mentioned) is that they have a history and fanbase that would provide credibility and legimacy that the petro-clubs (whether they understand it or not) are struggling to buy..... Yes the pricetag would have been higher, but as we've seen by the way they conduct themselves money/profit is NOT the object here.
 
PSG, City & Chavs(*) aren't in it to make money... It's about prestige and sports-washing (see current discussion elsewhere in thread)......
So, put yourself in the shoes of Qatar or Abu Dhabi. What those kingdoms have been desperate to do for decades is diversify their wealth and asset portfolio beyond just oil extraction, both due to the economic problems caused by price fluctuation and the knowledge that one way or another that market will eventually end. This isn't armchair psychology, this is the constantly expressed guiding ideology of these governments.

This is why Dubai is a gleaming tourist mecca subsidized by state-owned luxury airlines, this is why they're always partnering with American and other foreign Universities, this is why MBS in Saudi Arabia is always coming up with hare-brained schemes, it's all about establishing sources of state revenue that are not oil-based. Money is no object now, but they need future dollars, their opportunity costs and incentives are different than a western investor.

These are also, as we know, deeply authoritarian, brutal, and corrupt regimes. They are badly in need of guillotine insurance, so to speak. And their population is among the most football-obsessed in the world.

Investing in European clubs solves both problems! The "sportswashing" to the extent "look at our shiny winning football team a continent away" is part of the motivation isn't meant to influence Europeans, it's meant to influence their own people.

Two very obvious things that reveal the sportswashing narrative to have no clothes are first that these projects have brought more spotlight on the awfulness of these regimes than anything in decades and everyone hates their clubs, and second that the existentially important ally of these regimes is not the European voter but the American military-industrial complex, which recent positive trends notwithstanding doesn't know or care the first thing about football.

The sheikhs are in this to create a sustainable revenue stream that isn't oil-dependent, and they, exactly like ENIC, exactly like the PL American contingent, all see the top of European football as an undervalued future growth market, based heavily on the potential to transform into an anti-competitive NFL of Pan-European Football. Their underlying imperatives and motivations are different, but they are in football to accomplish the same goal and they understand one another as allies, not competitors.

(Abramovich is fundamentally all the same shit, just with slightly different particulars)
 
FWIW I don't think Emerson has played more than a game or so of his entire career at wingback, he was certainly an RB in a back four at Betis and Barca.

He's very much a defender. A big lad who gets stuck in too, not entirely unlike Tanganga, though with more speed and seemingly a bit more quality with the ball at his feet.

Not from what i have seen of him.

You can even see from the odd ten minute videos here and there how far up he plays.
 
We have nothing to complain about regarding CCV. Did everything that was asked of him without complaint or making a fuss. The team's and their fans we have loaned him to have liked him (Levy asking too much for a permanent deal?).
Had a decent preseason for us before having a shocker against that Portuguese outfit. Certainly never done anything to piss Spurs fans off.

He reminds me of the spotty kid at school who want's to get into the gang, always hangs about in the playground waiting for an invite to join but alas never gets one.
 
A per reports so far:

1. He wants RM (boyhood fan blah).
2. PSG have been trying to get him to renew for over a year and have done everything they can to convince him (inc. bringing in Messi).
3. RM have been gearing a move up with him behind the scenes since before he even signed for PSG.

He's done everything he can at PSG..... Apart from win the CL and he either ticks that box this year with Messi or succumbs to the fact that even with Messi they couldn't get it done and he could be waiting forever.

No guarantees until pen is put to paper, granted; but ultimately PSG have proved they are absolutely prepared to lose him on a free.



No trf fee means RM can pander to every last whim of his to get him.

They don't have the sheer wealth of PSG, but they'll still make him obscenely rich whilst providing the one thing PSG can't buy.... A bigger stage from week to week.



Yes... And you're fundamentally wrong because of the origins of the money that provided the footing and revenue generation that they are only now able to exploit.

You ignore this time and time again (let's not have the same conversation).



(Ahhh, shit! ....Looks like we are having that conversation again then.)


.....This is nothing more that a token acknowledgement from you when in fact it is what fundamentally separates the clubs (on social, moral and economic levels). Ultimately, you're happy to draw a line under this stone cold fact and just see us as the same from here on in as if how they got to the dance is no longer relevant for no other reason other than it's already happened.

I'm sorry... It doesn't just wash away.... People should not forget/ignore it or draw a line under it.... In a very specific way, to do so is to be complicit in the very sports washing they seek

By your token, you have no real reason to harbour a rivalry with Woolwich beyond some compliant notion of 'red shirt bad' when in fact the truth runs far deeper.



Nope...... Not unless you're preaching to me the idea that the history and culture of our club and the ethics of the game have no meaning/value and that all this (the game and it's roots) amount to nothing more than some numbers on a spreadsheet.

.....You seem totally subservient by the Sports = Entertainment = Business ethos.

I counter:

Sport = competition(*)
Club, culture & ethics = the people & the soul.

.......These are the things worth clinging to in whatever's left of our increasingly shit-stained game.

(*Not entertainment..... Of course, a surrounding industry sells it as such; but to draw a parallel: Art is still art; no matter how much a painting is sold for and how many people profit from it's sale.)

Sidenote: This is where those in our midst that prattle on about "spreadsheet fans" and "Levy-lovers" highlight their ignorance.... Most people that think like me are in fact 'romantics' who will be the very last to jump on board the train when the last trip to Cortporate Football-ville eventually leaves the station.




ESL would (will!) suck.... Corporate football sucks...... Well yeh. Your principals are apparently far less resistant to the the New (Football) World Order than mine though. Whilst I don't disagree with your final passage, I'm not sure of it's direct relevance to your insistence upon whitewashing the unsavory, dubious means, methods and motives that it took to get the petro-clubs to the big table.

As noted above; you're all too happy to draw a line and afford them the legitimacy that they crave; the very thing that their deeper motive seeks.... "Hey, we know it's immoral... We know blood has been shed and people have been abused, but hey never mind; you're here now... Welcome aboard"........ Fuck that(*).

I know things are too far gone to put the genie back inside the bottle, but 'Spurs = Just a less rich version of City/Chavs/PSG'???? .....Again; fuck that(*).


(*No offense, like.)


Is there a condensed version of this anywhere on Google?
 
I'm talking in terms of Qatar/PSGs PR (rather than FIFA's desire or otherwise for an EFL).....

It's all about image rather than money..... Whilst they don't want any more bad press in the run up to the WC, they 100% would have wanted to be part of an elitist club football competition. In fact the level of prestige that they aspire to depends on it (an ESL) given Ligue Un's 2nd tier status as a league.

It's inevitable PSG would have been perceived as a driving force behind the ESL for this reason.... The WC corruption and workers and societal rights storms etc. would be more than enough unwanted heat for now.....

.....Which is why I'd expect a fresh push for an ESL in 2023 or 2024.



(FWIW; I too would suspect that FIFA would see benefits in the weakening of UEFA.)

Again, I'm not so sure.

I think maybe PSG and ManC weighed it up and realised the structure they are in now actually suits their model better. Their best shot at a "sporting/financial" advantage is within the current structure - where they can now financially outmuscle even the likes of Real Madrid and Barca with their fiscal model.

And Abu Dhabi owned ManC who were also the first to break away from the ESL have no such issues with WC/FIFA and have actually a long history of conflict with UEFA.

As a bonus, both PSG and ManC will also be aware that their stance would have bought them some much needed leverage with UEFA too - the organisation that introduced the owner investment controls in FFP at the behest of the old money clubs like Juve/RM/Barca/Utd (the architects of ESL) in an attempt to cull them, and has persistently pursued both for FFP breaches.
 
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Again, I'm not so sure.

I think maybe PSG and ManC weighed it up and realised the structure they are in now actually suits their model better. Their best shot at a "sporting/financial" advantage is within the current structure - where they can now financially outmuscle even the likes of Real Madrid and Barca with their fiscal model.

.....But they could still out-muscle an ESL. Once the uniform 'welcome' payments have been spent by each club; Spurs, Arse & the like will be bottom 3rd in the financial pecking order and the same pan-european food-chain would still apply, whilst the graduated prize-money would serve to widen the gap at the top (i.e. rich get richer get more powerful).

And Abu Dhabi owned ManC who were also the first to break away from the ESL have no such issues with WC/FIFA and have actually a long history of conflict with UEFA.

As a bonus, both PSG and ManC will also be aware that their stance would have bought them some much needed leverage with UEFA too - the organisation that introduced the owner investment controls in FFP at the behest of the old money clubs like Juve/RM/Barca/Utd in an attempt to cull them, and has persistently pursued both for FFP breaches.

City: I take your point to a degree... They can strike a balance as they are already largely dominant in a premium brand (i.e. EPL).... CL win is the endgame that eludes of course, but season to season it's just icing as they still stand to win respected trophies... Whilst:

PSG: It's CL win or bust (tin pot domestic glory); their credibility/prestige would be far more boosted if they could kick some big club arses every season via an ESL even if they found themselves trading the ESL title with City every year...... A rivalry which they'd no doubt revel in (see regional politics and rivalries).
 
Cheers for the response, I always appreciate a good discussion, I think it would be more productive to just add a couple of notes rather than going point-by-point here.

- Honestly, hand to my heart, I genuinely believe the class of person represented by Joe Lewis is a more malign influence on the world than the class of person represented by Sheikh Mansour (to the extent they're distinguishable, which again, I really largely think they aren't). Not to in any way absolve the many moral horrors of the Gulf monarchies, but the lawless global hegemony of finance capital destroys and immiserates the human race on a scale the little tinpot sheikhs can't hold a candle to.

That isn't working backwards from a message board argument about Daniel Levy's management of Spurs, it's a sincere reflection of me being a left-wing nutjob, I promise you.

- But I don't think how the owners got their money and how they operate their clubs as businesses have anything to do with one another. The whole sportswashing thing is fake. The objection is solely down to the way those clubs distorted the competitive fabric of the game, and would be not one iota different even if the money flowed from the purest of charities. Which is good, because the way they distorted the game is very bad and deserves to be called out and opposed on its own terms! That IS the actual problem!

- Above all I want to be extremely clear that I could not have described my underlying values better than "sport=competition". That is the absolute distilled essence of it, I totally agree. And I don't think it's just you and me, I think the fascinating thing about the Levy Wars is that the real crazy partisans on both sides are really both driven by the same disgust with corporate football, and neither side can understand why the other looks at Levy as the avatar of the thing they oppose. It is self-evident to me that Levy's Spurs are the sine qua non of the corporatization of the game. The penury toward the squad (read: labor) isn't an exception from that, it is quintessential to it.

I dunno, I just think I'm right, and I abandoned all doubt when the ESL thing came through. That was the mask off moment for ENIC's values. They will burn the game to the ground to avoid competing.
Well, I've read some hogwash on here, but that has to be a runaway winner.
So much to laugh at, yet at the same time to feel sad that someone can be so wrong about so many things, and so confused.
 
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