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Tactics TFC's Tactical Autopsy Thread
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Explain the Palace performance then.
Was answering when we lost the players.
Who's that coming over the hill?
View: https://x.com/dataanalyticepl/status/1890112020902736024?s=46&t=IomICbZIqZC4FsH907qgfw
View: https://x.com/dataanalyticepl/status/1890112644755181912?s=46&t=IomICbZIqZC4FsH907qgfw
View: https://x.com/dataanalyticepl/status/1890113035806863734?s=46&t=IomICbZIqZC4FsH907qgfw
View: https://x.com/dataanalyticepl/status/1890113662276497571?s=46&t=IomICbZIqZC4FsH907qgfw
And I was asking, if it's just about injuries, why did we play so shockingly against Palace when everyone was available?
Or the second half meltdown vs Brighton?
Or the second half meltdown vs Newcastle?
Or the second half meltdown vs Leicster?
Or the shit performance vs Arse?
Or the whole shitshow vs Coventry?
Or any of the games in that horrific run at the end of last season, when we lost embarrassingly, pathetically, to Liverpool, Newcastle, Woolwich, Chelsea and a bunch of others?
All the "injuries" merchants never have an answer for any of this.
Not sure who the injury merchants are but you're probably better off asking them
Personally don't think this debate is black/white. We don't have a devine right to win or dominate all games. It's not like Ange took over a slick, super talented deep squad that had been high achieving. Brighton are a decent team who we bossed for the first 45, then the second half they came out, 2 down, and threw caution to the wind and got their rewards. We didn't have a meltdown in the away game v Newcastle, the away game v Leicester, the home game v Arse. We played pretty well, dominated the ball/territory and got hit by break goals (break followed by own goal corner v Arse. But also, there are games where we've been shit or games where we've had shit phases.
You've got a very young team in the process of a rebuild. Even when all are fit it's got glaring weaknesses all over the pitch. You've got a coach who's on halfway through his second season in the PL, who is also an incredibly idiosyncratic coach. There are flaws in his methodology, but there are flaws with nearly any coach we'll hire and have hired.
If you look at the underlying metrics, the PPDA, the XG, XGA, the rolling XGD, from the first 2-3 months of the season, they all suggested we were a good team generally doing good things, some very good. We were (still are I think) the most aggressive team in the PL, early on we'd got the best 3 XG/XGA's in the PL, we'd stopped conceding from set pieces more or less. We were however, still conceding too many "big chances". But here's the thing, even now we've got the 8th best GD int the league, 2 behind 4th place.
On the deficit side, there does seem to be an inherent fitness problem with the type of high energy, very aggressive, man to man football that Ange likes to play. Not just injuries but fatigue. It was often the same with Bielsa's sides. Not just in terms of game management but on a season basis. Players can tire late in games and this can cause issues and the whole team can look fucked as the season goes on. This is especially true if you don't have a deep squad to start with, but is exacerbated if you get injuries, especially to lots of key players.
Personally, I'm more tolerant of flaws in a proactive system than I am in a reactive one. I don't think Ange is a "fraud" or "out of his depth" but I don't think he's the messiah who will lead us to the promised land either. I quite like what he wants to do, I like aggressive football, but I'm just not sure he'll ever be able to do it with our incompetent recruitment, and even if he gets better recruitment to help him, I'm still not convinced he's "the man". But I'm also not sure "the man" is out there that would make this squad a serious challenger.
I would like to see him given a squad better able to rotate quality with quality, a whole new forward line, rendering the current chumps rotation. Chelsea went out and spent about 3-400m in their midfield, we spent about 70m on ours. We've had no back up LB or LCb for two seasons.
We need to fuck off the plodders and technically weak that just don't suit a high energy/aggressive possession game (and this would apply also if we are going after someone like Iraola).
But if he goes at the end of the season, I'll get it, and I won't piss myself either, as long as we bring in someone I like.
I just don't see how you can say it's mainly the fault of the recruitment or the squad at his disposal when you see images like this:
Our only DM is on the right back?? Our midfield is all over the place leaving three spare Villa players in the middle of the pitch. Most stupid structure I've ever seen.
This is 30 seconds into the game so cannot be explained by player fatigue.
This is repeatedly happening (see Leicester's first goal the other week, a carbon copy of this) so cannot be called a one-off.
There are no players that can fix the nonsense seen above. This is a problem of coaching. A complete inability to coach a proper high press, a press that was also exposed at Celtic whenever he played in the Champions League (ie against any sort of valid opposition as opposed to the farmers in the SPL).
There is no greater indicator of a good coach than the team's pressing. Because pressing is 99% about coaching, 1% about personnel. You don't need star talents to coach an effective press, you need organisation and willing, energetic runners. That's about it.
You never see the type of chaos above from managers who coach a good press. Iraola is missing half his team—a team that's frankly championship quality in many areas of the pitch—and yet his press is consistently a well-oiled machine. It puts ours to shame.
Compare Bournemouth's players to ours. How you can say Ange is hamstrung by the recruitment when you see what a guy like Iraola is achieving with a considerably worse squad. Or Marco Silva. Or McKenna. Or Glasner. Or any number of managers in the league.
And if the team is suffering with the press for whatever reason, the manager needs to react, adjust the tactics and drop them a bit deeper. Employ a mid block, or a low block, something. The fact it's continuously not working for Ange and yet he persists with this stupid un-coached high press is absolutely damning on his common sense and intelligence as a manager.
You say you don't think he's a fraud. That's exactly what he is. The nonsense above is exhibit A, B and C.
There are plenty of examples of this type of stupidity in our pressing ever since we hired him.
In the summer this club will accidentally hire a decent manager, he'll have the same squad at his disposal as Ange, but suddenly our players will stop getting constant injuries and our press will be a million times better.
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I just don't see how you can say it's mainly the fault of the recruitment or the squad at his disposal when you see images like this:
Our only DM is on the right back?? Our midfield is all over the place leaving three spare Villa players in the middle of the pitch. Most stupid structure I've ever seen.
This is 30 seconds into the game so cannot be explained by player fatigue.
This is repeatedly happening (see Leicester's first goal the other week, a carbon copy of this) so cannot be called a one-off.
There are no players that can fix the nonsense seen above. This is a problem of coaching. A complete inability to coach a proper high press, a press that was also exposed at Celtic whenever he played in the Champions League (ie against any sort of valid opposition as opposed to the farmers in the SPL).
There is no greater indicator of a good coach than the team's pressing. Because pressing is 99% about coaching, 1% about personnel. You don't need star talents to coach an effective press, you need organisation and willing, energetic runners. That's about it.
You never see the type of chaos above from managers who coach a good press. Iraola is missing half his team—a team that's frankly championship quality in many areas of the pitch—and yet his press is consistently a well-oiled machine. It puts ours to shame.
Compare Bournemouth's players to ours. How you can say Ange is hamstrung by the recruitment when you see what a guy like Iraola is achieving with a considerably worse squad. Or Marco Silva. Or McKenna. Or Glasner. Or any number of managers in the league.
And if the team is suffering with the press for whatever reason, the manager needs to react, adjust the tactics and drop them a bit deeper. Employ a mid block, or a low block, something. The fact it's continuously not working for Ange and yet he persists with this stupid un-coached high press is absolutely damning on his common sense and intelligence as a manager.
You say you don't think he's a fraud. That's exactly what he is. The nonsense above is exhibit A, B and C.
There are plenty of examples of this type of stupidity in our pressing ever since we hired him.
In the summer this club will accidentally hire a decent manager, he'll have the same squad at his disposal as Ange, but suddenly our players will stop getting constant injuries and our press will be a million times better.
I just don't see how you can say it's mainly the fault of the recruitment or the squad at his disposal when you see images like this:
Our only DM is on the right back?? Our midfield is all over the place leaving three spare Villa players in the middle of the pitch. Most stupid structure I've ever seen.
This is 30 seconds into the game so cannot be explained by player fatigue.
This is repeatedly happening (see Leicester's first goal the other week, a carbon copy of this) so cannot be called a one-off.
There are no players that can fix the nonsense seen above. This is a problem of coaching. A complete inability to coach a proper high press, a press that was also exposed at Celtic whenever he played in the Champions League (ie against any sort of valid opposition as opposed to the farmers in the SPL).
There is no greater indicator of a good coach than the team's pressing. Because pressing is 99% about coaching, 1% about personnel. You don't need star talents to coach an effective press, you need organisation and willing, energetic runners. That's about it.
You never see the type of chaos above from managers who coach a good press. Iraola is missing half his team—a team that's frankly championship quality in many areas of the pitch—and yet his press is consistently a well-oiled machine. It puts ours to shame.
Compare Bournemouth's players to ours. How you can say Ange is hamstrung by the recruitment when you see what a guy like Iraola is achieving with a considerably worse squad. Or Marco Silva. Or McKenna. Or Glasner. Or any number of managers in the league.
And if the team is suffering with the press for whatever reason, the manager needs to react, adjust the tactics and drop them a bit deeper. Employ a mid block, or a low block, something. The fact it's continuously not working for Ange and yet he persists with this stupid un-coached high press is absolutely damning on his common sense and intelligence as a manager.
You say you don't think he's a fraud. That's exactly what he is. The nonsense above is exhibit A, B and C.
There are plenty of examples of this type of stupidity in our pressing ever since we hired him.
In the summer this club will accidentally hire a decent manager, he'll have the same squad at his disposal as Ange, but suddenly our players will stop getting constant injuries and our press will be a million times better.
You are saying compare Bournemouth, and Iraola is a coach I like. He’s also got a lot of injuries, but unlike Spurs, Bournemouth haven’t gone since mid September (due to internationals) with their players playing two games a week. Meaning he gets to coach a lot more than Ange does throughout the week for months.
That video you posted features two players starting who’d had a couple of training sessions since signing a few days prior for example.
Again, I’m not saying you’re completely wrong or that Ange isn’t flawed - he’s been doing shit for months that is pissing me off and I’m writing about it on here - I’m just saying for me, it’s a bit more complex.
You and others who think he’s a terrible coach may be right, I’m certainly not saying he’s a great one, based on his 18 months here, and I’m sure he won’t be here next season regardless, all I’m saying is for me there’s a lot of other factors that mitigate and also, as I have stated many times, because I like the idea of what he is trying to do, play aggressive front foot football, I am more inclined to let those mitigations effect my judgement on him. Just being honest.
His front foot football is gone to shit though. We are dreadful to watch now.
There are many mitigating circumstances i agree but the standard of coaching seems to be shocking . Tactically and postionally. Ive seem u 12s with more positional awareness than our lot.
That comes from top down
must add an extra context point (2) to this graph
[1 ] our running -sprinting is merely trying to close down some opp player who is already 50m ahead/away. or that we have 9 players clustered together somewhere on the pitch & trying to scramble
[2] “We haven’t been playing intensely since November,” & we still Top of the charts for sprints.
No. It's perfectly possible to remove 8 or 9 first team players - particularly your entire first choice Back 5 - and win games of football. This is why Liverpool easily accounted for Plymouth...
All jokes (or objective reality) aside there is no excuse for being left that open by Porro suicidal leaping into a busted press. It's not like manager and team haven't known for months that our press has been compromised by player availability. Press should have been knocked on the head the moment Solanke went down. Simply doesn't work without him (or our 1st choice defence).
No. It's perfectly possible to remove 8 or 9 first team players - particularly your entire first choice Back 5 - and win games of football. This is why Liverpool easily accounted for Plymouth...
All jokes (or objective reality) aside there is no excuse for being left that open by Porro suicidal leaping into a busted press. It's not like manager and team haven't known for months that our press has been compromised by player availability. Press should have been knocked on the head the moment Solanke went down. Simply doesn't work without him (or our 1st choice defence).
I don’t even think the press is the only issue. Even in a basic deeper block we seem incapable of stopping crosses flying into our box, which is all about coaching and application.
Caveat: I'm far from being a tactical expert, so posting this for other more-informed posters to discuss, if anyone is interested in doing so.
Whilst watching MOTD2 this morning, I thought I'd see if I could work out how Garnacho ended up in loads of space when he wasted United's best chance. You don't get to see what happened immediately before that passage of play, but when the clip begins, the problem is presumably that Danso is in (or at least nearest to) the RB position, and Porro in in the middle.
In minute 23 (of the game I mean, not the MOTD2 broadcast, it's minute 31 of that) a United midfielder beats Maddison to a header, then another beats Bentancur to the second header. As I said Danso is closets to RB at that point, with Porro inside him and a few feet further forward. Both have United players wider than them, roughly parallel. As the ball drops to Zirkzee, both Danso and Porro instinctively start moving back towards the box. I don't think Porro knows what's behind him (he hasn't looked in this passage of play), Danso might know as he has his head half-turned whilst heading towards the box. The ball comes back right about 10 yards, whilst Porro and Danso both continue to head towards the box, with Danso still a few feet behind, and a few feet wider than, Porro. Fernandes recognises that both of them have moved into the middle of the box, unaware of Garnacho, so he finds Garnacho is loads of space.
What do our tactics-aware members make of that? Is this all about starting positions? (In which case it's impossible to understand without seeing the few seconds of play prior to the clip shown on MOTD2). Once they are in that position, would they normally try to get back into their 'normal' positions during the play, or would they play each other's position until the danger is gone? When the ball is in the air before the first header, should they be looking round and swapping positions?
Not a big deal at all, and I'm obviously happy we won the game - just thought it might be something of interest to discuss.
Whilst watching MOTD2 this morning, I thought I'd see if I could work out how Garnacho ended up in loads of space when he wasted United's best chance. You don't get to see what happened immediately before that passage of play, but when the clip begins, the problem is presumably that Danso is in (or at least nearest to) the RB position, and Porro in in the middle.
In minute 23 (of the game I mean, not the MOTD2 broadcast, it's minute 31 of that) a United midfielder beats Maddison to a header, then another beats Bentancur to the second header. As I said Danso is closets to RB at that point, with Porro inside him and a few feet further forward. Both have United players wider than them, roughly parallel. As the ball drops to Zirkzee, both Danso and Porro instinctively start moving back towards the box. I don't think Porro knows what's behind him (he hasn't looked in this passage of play), Danso might know as he has his head half-turned whilst heading towards the box. The ball comes back right about 10 yards, whilst Porro and Danso both continue to head towards the box, with Danso still a few feet behind, and a few feet wider than, Porro. Fernandes recognises that both of them have moved into the middle of the box, unaware of Garnacho, so he finds Garnacho is loads of space.
What do our tactics-aware members make of that? Is this all about starting positions? (In which case it's impossible to understand without seeing the few seconds of play prior to the clip shown on MOTD2). Once they are in that position, would they normally try to get back into their 'normal' positions during the play, or would they play each other's position until the danger is gone? When the ball is in the air before the first header, should they be looking round and swapping positions?
Not a big deal at all, and I'm obviously happy we won the game - just thought it might be something of interest to discuss.