The Style v Substance discussion

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Not sure we're achieving any more by ridding ourselves of style. Which is the issue.

We got more points in seasons managed by Redknapp and Pochettino than we have so far this season whilst playing relatively stylish football that received plaudits.

I want to see Tottenham win. But when you're playing a poor brand of football, playing not to lose only to then lose (or drop points). It's quite depressing.

It shouldn't need to be one or the other to succeed.
 
halothagod said:
Alright then.

v Soton
v Newcastle
v Maccabi Haifa
v Utd
v W Ham
v Lask
v City
v Ludogrets

Are those many games or are they not?
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You're scraping the bottom of the barrel here

First remove all europa games as oppositions were borderline league 2 level

Soton - we were shit, individual brilliance won is that game
Newcastle - attacked for few minutes, scored, then stopped playing
Utd - utd threw the towel after red card
West Ham - the first 15 minutes, followed by 75 minutes of mediocrity
City - city were toothless, we stank up the place and scored 2 from 2 shots on target

None of those games we looked excellent for majority of the game
 
You can play expansive football and not lose. Why use Brighton as an example and not Liverpool? Anyway this is an argument to have if we're playing ultra dull football and winning things. For what its worth i could tolerate it if we won the league for a season but not for a league/FA cup and 5th/6th/7th in the league. Its not why i got into football and i felt the same under Graham and AVB.
 
halothagod said:
OK. You are exaggerating mate. This is all I have been pointing out and asking people to be calm.

You just said issues at WBA weren’t addressed. We literally went and won our next game against City 2-0. So what are you saying?
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🤦‍♂️. They’re completely different games!

The low block counter is perfect for City because of their tactical setup and the quality of their players. Jose got it right.

It was obvious, however, from the WBA game that we have zero idea how to dominate a game. We beat WBA, Burnley and Brighton solely because of the superior quality of our players, not because of our tactics.

It was all too predictable that if we continued to play so poorly against sides outside the big 6, we would come unstuck.

I don’t understand why you think it’s so anti-Spurs to say he got it wrong against Palace and Leicester? You called for objectivity a few post back - I’m literally doing that by discussing where he performed well and where he has failed this season.

You seem to be unable to criticise Jose though, so perhaps you are lacking some objectivity?

I love Harry Kane - would let him have a go on my wife if he asked nicely. But when he plays shit I’ll call him out on it. Why would I not to the same on our manager?!

The cultism surrounding Jose is disturbing.
 
If we win playing shit I don't care.

But if we lose and barely make an effort, it's a fucking travesty.

When our tactics don't work, it makes football unenjoyable.

Football is meant to be enjoyed.
 
halothagod said:
Ok. Man U. You want to swear Man U play attacking football? Because they won a few games by many goals? Haven’t we done the same THIS same season? We beat the same Man U you are sucking off 6-1.
Soton? We beat that lot 5-2. This same season. So what are you on about?
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What are you on about? Your post says we can't have it both ways.

You are saying this: "don't you want points? If so, shut up and stop complaining about the way we play".

I just responded saying "these teams play differently and are doing as well or better than us".

So yes, we can play better ball and still be competitive.

Man U for all of their shithousery and pathetic displays and disfunction are sitting ahead of us at the moment. This has nothing to do with their big win at the weekend. This goes by what I have seen all year. They don't sit in a shell all game.

Either way, my point remains. Our squad is more than capable of playing a more entertaining game and a game that gets us results.
 
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halothagod said:
We are not good at the moment. But we are not as awful as some people are making out. Yes, we have played a low block in our run against the top teams but we have basically been putting out fires and trying to create a win at all costs mentality, which is pretty new to the club. So the wheels will come off a bit in the process. Normal.

The question is, would you rather play expansive footy like Brighton have been doing and winning the square root of fuck all?

Put it this way? Would you rather we play exactly like Brighton v Man U and come away with nothing (I know we have better finishers at Spurs) or as we did v Brighton and came away with a late win and all 3 points?

I know which one I’ll take.
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Question. Why chose brighton? The side that can't find the back of the net because they have Welbeck and Maupay as their strikers.

Why not pick Southhampton, Liverpool, Chelsea, Man City as the litmus test? Fuck, even Man U who are back ahead of us, play a more enjoyable brand of football.

We are sitting 5th, and could be 8th if the people behind us get their 3pts.

Shit even Aston Villa play a more attractive game than us and they have 2 games in hand. They could be 3pts ahead of us by the end of it all.

We have the squad to compete with anyone. We have seen that even with playing the most conservative style.

Why can't we turn it on a bit and be more than one dimensional?
 
Sir Archibald Crooks said:
You can play expansive football and not lose. Why use Brighton as an example and not Liverpool? Anyway this is an argument to have if we're playing ultra dull football and winning things. For what its worth i could tolerate it if we won the league for a season but not for a league/FA cup and 5th/6th/7th in the league. Its not why i got into football and i felt the same under Graham and AVB.
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Yup agreed why use Brighton as an example they are not one of our piers . Teams in the top 6 /clubs is what you should compare with and almost all play a brand football different to ours. Points wise this brand of football has delivered not much more or less than the other teams. So I don’t think it’s a case of playing this brand of football to achieve success. Most of the top teams here and in Europe now play a more progressive , fast attacking football probablt AM in Spain the only ones who don’t .
 
halothagod said:
We are not good at the moment. But we are not as awful as some people are making out. Yes, we have played a low block in our run against the top teams but we have basically been putting out fires and trying to create a win at all costs mentality, which is pretty new to the club. So the wheels will come off a bit in the process. Normal.

The question is, would you rather play expansive footy like Brighton have been doing and winning the square root of fuck all?

Put it this way? Would you rather we play exactly like Brighton v Man U and come away with nothing (I know we have better finishers at Spurs) or as we did v Brighton and came away with a late win and all 3 points?

I know which one I’ll take.
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So you want Tottenham Hotspur FC to play like Brighton?
Is that your point? Bit weird. Why compare us to Brighton? Are they the new standard for football? The new Ajax??

I want us to play like Spurs. A team known for playing adventurous and exciting football. Playing on the front foot. But I grew up in the 80s. The history of the 60s and 70s was still fresh (including relegation). Maybe I was spoilt by the players I saw.

And I get it. You can’t play that way every game for 90mins. That is not realistic either.

But to honour the traditions of the club that were formed by Rowe, Nicholson and which is at the DNA of the club does mean playing an expansive style of football.

We have won next to nothing since the 90s. I still love this club. But I do think the next generation of”fans” at the ground will be similar to the clubs we currently mock. Plastics. Look at the state of them down the road.

 
If we win whilst playing defensive ‘negative’ football and get silverware then I don’t mind in the slightest.

If we lose whilst playing defensive ‘negative’ football and win fuck all then I’ll call for the manager’s head.

Mourinho has until the end of next season. I imagine this is an experiment and if it brings us trophies, Levy will try to extend Mourinho’s contract. If it doesn’t work then he’ll look for someone else without having to pay a manager off due to sacking him.

Ultimately, I think whilst flawed, Mourinho’s tactics DO work (as evidenced by his trophy cabinet). But the players in his teams need to A) fully understand Mourinho’s system and B) be good enough. I think there are a number of players in our team that fail at both criteria.
 
halothagod said:
But we don’t sit in a shell all game either! I am not saying you should shut up cos frankly you can scream yourself silly, won’t do me no harm whatsoever.

All I am calling for is cool heads and asking people to be a bit objective. When people are saying we never play good footy or we always park the bus I find it embarrassing and quite frankly an insult to the work the lads have put in having us top of the league for weeks.

People can have a moan but don’t rewrite history like the journos and oppo fans do
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I don't know where you have been, but there has been a healthy collective of people that have voiced their issues with the way we play the minute Jose came in.

Check my history. I have been backing Jose and praising him for changing the mentality and getting the squad to completely shift their way of play. He has done a great job of installing his way and instilling some belief in the squad. Never going to argue that and have been more than vocal about how I was wrong in that manner.

But that doesn't mean I like it or want it. I think he has taken us back a couple of notches in terms of being a scary team to play. We have seen it the past couple of games. Mark out Kane and you mark out the team.

We have sat in a shell against the big boys. We didn't even attempt to get the ball up the pitch by playing football on the ground. Against the lesser teams? We don't sit with a back 6 like we did against Chelsea, but we do sit in a low block and still allow lesser teams to control large majorities of the game.

For me this shouldn't happen.

Under Poch we were one of the most fun teams to watch for years. But we couldn't seem to show up for the big games. Then came a Liverpool match where we sat in a mid block and didn't press Pool much. It was a complete diversion of the way we played, but we won 4-1 I believe. It was mostly quick counters if I remember correctly. The squad hasn't changed much from that point and so my point is, you can have your cake and eat it to. You can play aggressive football and conservative football with the same squad.
 
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