Do you know that they are? innocent until proven guilty isn't that how it works?
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Do you know that they are? innocent until proven guilty isn't that how it works?
You didn't demonstrate anything - you just listed a few incidents where politics has impacted on sport - all of which I strongly disagree with and all of which were quickly stopped.
Taking a knees might be a "reaction" but who cares? Rioting and looting were also a reaction are you OK with those as well? Who are you to judge what is and isn't OK? indeed who am I isn't that what free speech is all about?
The bottom line is that sport and politics should be kept seperate, "Shame in the Game" is a woke slanted piece of biased crap, nor watching it would have done you good brainwashing is a terrible crime.
Ask yourself this question - if football is intrinsically racist, the claim made by the BBC drivel - why does football have 200% more black players than their demographic would support - is that football being racist against non-black players? or is it evidence that footballers are in fact selected quite rightly on merit and not on skin colour?
We force people to follow laws all the time. Murder is almost universally looked down upon as wrong. Racism should be in that same tier.
some poor reasoning skills there sir
1) equating taking a knee with looting and rioting = you've already conflated two very separate issues and exposed yourself as someone who has no intention of understanding the nuances of black resistance.
2) can't tell if you've watched it or not, but you most likely haven't = someone who makes up their mind about something based on no evidence before actually engaging with it. hiding behind terms like 'woke' and 'brainwashing.' meaningless terms. are interviews, footage, and statistics not enough for you? don't engage if you've already made up your mind.
3) you're all over the place here - taking the knee was against racism in football. like monkey chanting and shit. even ledley himself has said that multiple times in interviews. why on earth are you bringing in random unrelated points like selection statistics? if there were only black players in the entirety of world football and people still made monkey chants, does that mean racism doesn't exist? do you even think through what you write?
Pretending that BLM are only responsible for positive actions whilst denying all the negative connotations - you have zero argument when your starting point is so clearly biased.
The point you fail to accept is that the booing is aimed at BLM not at anti-racism ... you're being woke and getting offended for a mistaken belief - fans booing BLM are not inherently racist however much you want to pretend that they are.
Talking about monkey chants at black players then claiming I'm off topic - get a mirror - nobody is saying that behaviour is acceptable or that it's relevant to BLM, are you?
Nobody is hiding behind the correct use of the English language, have you considered that maybe you just don't want to listen?
They proved it by booing, by planning it before hand. That footballer I talked about who was on the radio, his name is Paul Mortimer, he said the booing reminded him of when he used to get booed for his colour. Actions have consequences.
Exactly, it's an illusion, the reality is that football ground is no more equal than the rest of society, if it wasn't black players would not be booed because they are a different colour.
Look at this picture - then imagine if a White player had given the White Power salute .... if you still can't see what the fans were booing you're simply not paying attention - actions do speak louder than words, just as a picture paints a thousand words ...
If a player gives it the black power salute at the Lane I hope he gets booed as well ... there is simply no place for political symbolism at football grounds
When was the last time you were at a ground and a fan booed a player because he was black? ... if it did happen today hopefully you'd have the courage to punch them out ... but don't worry if you wouldn't there would 50,000 who would.
Who are you saying booed players because of their race? any evidence?
It would show is lack of understanding of the whole race issue and he would rightly be vilified.Look at this picture - then imagine if a White player had given the White Power salute .... if you still can't see what the fans were booing you're simply not paying attention - actions do speak louder than words, just as a picture paints a thousand words ...
If a player gives it the black power salute at the Lane I hope he gets booed as well ... there is simply no place for political symbolism at football grounds
There is no place for racism in society that includes football grounds.
Bulgaria And England Charged By UEFA After Racism During Match
The 6-0 Euro 2020 qualifying win for Gareth Southgate's side was marred by racist chanting and Nazi salutes by Bulgaria fans.
www.sportbible.com
Players are selected by clubs / coaches on merit. Not by the fans. There is an institutional bias against BAME in most walks of life in this country: it’s left over from colonial beliefs, but is clearing. For example, students in my classes will no longer even read the ‘n- word’ if it turns up in a piece of literature were studying. However, once you’ve spoken with someone who’s seen this abuse, or are actually willing to listen to the possibility then you can recognise it.
If football was not intrinsically racist, I assume you’d have a perfect (or statistically close enough) match of % BAME players and fans and coaches to the population? Do we have that? Nope - I don’t know the statistics, but it will skew one way or the other depending on access to coaching and opportunity (in the case of players, managers) or access to wealth or opportunity and employment (in the case of fans wishing to attend he matches). The ‘opportunity’ has - for a long time - been historically controlled by white governments and sports federations (just an inevitable fact as they’re slowly evolving from a racist history).
It’s much more nuanced than just ‘see - there’s some BAME players, stop believing what the woke left tell you’.
If football was not intrinsically racist, I assume you’d have a perfect (or statistically close enough) match of % BAME players and fans and coaches to the population? Do we have that? Nope - I don’t know the statistics, but it will skew one way or the other depending on access to coaching and opportunity (in the case of players, managers) or access to wealth or opportunity and employment (in the case of fans wishing to attend he matches). The ‘opportunity’ has - for a long time - been historically controlled by white governments and sports federations (just an inevitable fact as they’re slowly evolving from a racist history).
It’s much more nuanced than just ‘see - there’s some BAME players, stop believing what the woke left tell you’.
But it’s not the same as a ‘white power’ salute, is it? There’s not hundreds of years of white slavery on a global scale, white people being discriminated against and killed because of their skin colour? There’s no equivalent to a South Africa but with persecuted white inhabitants, there’s no white equivalent to the oppression and hatred and inherent racism that still - clearly - exists. It’s different. If white and BAME people were treated the same, there would be no need for this. This is why you can’t compare BLM and ‘All Lives Matter’ or ‘White Lives Matter’. They are different because they mean different things because not all people of all races are treated the same - if they were, it would logically have no need to exist.Look at this picture - then imagine if a White player had given the White Power salute .... if you still can't see what the fans were booing you're simply not paying attention - actions do speak louder than words, just as a picture paints a thousand words ...
If a player gives it the black power salute at the Lane I hope he gets booed as well ... there is simply no place for political symbolism at football grounds
1. I don't know how you define rationality here. Racists can be rational even if racism is irrational. Racists are immoral, not irrational there's a big difference1) racists are not rational
2) you cannot persuade racists, so you should persuade those "neither here nor there" - i.e., those who dispute whether racism exists...? if you need to be "persuaded" that racism doesn't exist in football or society then you're just willfully ignorant. only snowflakes would see people taking the knee to shed light on racism and possibly be offended by it
3) racism clearly exists - and is a form of inciting violence. just watch the Maradona documentary. even if we argue over whether or not hate speech is violent, why on earth should it be permissible in a public arena. should racism be tolerated in school classrooms? in parliamentary debates?
what would be comparable would be hooliganism. hooligans are not rational. how did hooliganism die? the hammer on the head approach.
Has Wembley chaos wrecked Britain and Ireland’s 2030 World Cup bid?
Boris Johnson remains confident of the joint bid despite the ‘scenes of mayhem’ at Euro 2020 finalwww.theweek.co.uk
4) irrational violence can only be met with violence - i.e. morally justified violence
re: Cristina Bicchieri - had a dig around and i do take that argument, positive messaging is always a better method. but i'm not sure to the extent that works with racism in sport. you can't "positive" your way out of people chanting vile slurs.
2. bit of a strawman as the dispute here is not about racism per se, you're trying to persuade those who have no opinion on knee taking yet. That's also a bit of flattening the issue, I don't think the booers are neo-nazis or even a majority of which are really racist (they booed not chanted vile slurs). they boo because they dislike the corrective side of the culture war.
3. it's not always inciting violence. there are some communicative requirements like a listener, an intention, and the ability to bring about ends. why should it be permissible? because not everything that is wrong it is justified to coercively punish. In classrooms? probably not. Parliament? yes for other reasons. I'm not going to summarize 200 years of liberal writing on free speech and impermissible speech in a football post. It's definitely not as black and white as you put it.
Hooliganism is incomparable as it's physical violence, not booing a cause that talks about racism. that's both a quantitative and qualitative difference. of course, we shouldn't 'nudge' people away from murder that's too important to be left to incentives, but people also don't have an accompanying right to kill (on hooliganism one at least can claim it's consenting adults).
4. I don't think it's a necessity. for numerous reasons. but mainly because it will immoral to exert more violence than is necessary (no one would agree 100 lashes in the city plaza is the answer to someone booing taking the knee). Without getting to the justice questions here of retroactive punishment
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I bet many of the ones arguing for the BLM kneel in here were the same culprits singing "your daddy wash elephants, your mom is a whore" to a certain player.
A political salute is a political salute - your point whilst well intended is irrelevant - and historically very inaccurate, slavery started thousands of years before the colonisation of Africa, even African slavery was black on black long before the 'white-man' came along.
Every political movement is different, the point is that no political movement should be represented in sport - black, white, left, right, raving monster - none of them.
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Context matters people. The kneeling was introduced in context with BLM-protests, and it was their symbol.
The PL was stupid enough to adopt a BLM-supporting stance at first and then start backpeddling and saying it hasn't actually anything to do with BLM but it's just against discrimination.
People in here act as if the kneeling is completely separate from BLM and if it ever was then PL has changed their stance now so you can't be having any issues with it because then you are against equality.
*Disclaimer - I'm only suggesting it's dishonest to present the kneeling as not connected to BLM.
The PL was stupid enough to adopt a BLM-supporting stance at first and then start backpeddling and saying it hasn't actually anything to do with BLM but it's just against discrimination.
People in here act as if the kneeling is completely separate from BLM and if it ever was then PL has changed their stance now so you can't be having any issues with it because then you are against equality.
*Disclaimer - I'm only suggesting it's dishonest to present the kneeling as not connected to BLM.
Sport is political, tho. If the players were asked to take the knee and said ‘no, we’re not political’, that would also be a political move as failure to support = support of the status quo (at best).
The example of Switzerland as a neutral country has relevance here: it got them ‘out of the destruction of the war’, but they are still - rightly imo - criticised for failing to condemn the terrible actions that took place at the time. Remember when England toured SA during apartheid? Pretending it’s not happening still doesn’t avoid the fact that it is and the wider landscape has to be taken into account or else it’s just burying your head in the sand.
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