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Match Tottenham Hotspur v Woolwich Scum (15th Jan - 4.30pm)

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Distaste for scouse said:
You say that in such a rational matter of fact way, but the reality is football plays on our tribal instincts. Evolutionary instincts that aren't going away and do date back to our primitive past.

In a civilised society those callings must be supressed but they still remain just beneath the surface.
Add alcohol into the mix and I can see why it kicks off among young men, who are programmed to be tribal and enjoy a good tear up.

I dabbled on the fringes in my youth, was never a hooligan but on a couple of occassions got swept up in it when it kicked off outside the ground.

When I was growing up and on the night club scene it kicked off most weekends, but I grew up in an army town which was renowned for it. You either fled or you threw a few.

I think its different today with the half and half scarf crowd and I don't think its quite as tribal as it used to be.

Is it a good thing? probably. Means women and kids feel safer going to the football.

You are engaged in such tribal thinking on some level by even supporting the club, the degree to which you are invested depends on your own emotional ties.
You might look down at the violence aspect but you are still drawing on your base animal instincts, the tribalism and feeling of belonging to a tribe that very much comes from primates/Cave people.

As I say we have to supress it in the interest of society, but lets not pretend it isn't there. in all of us.
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Incredibly my entire life I've drank alcohol and been to football games and managed to resist the urge to punch anybody, so I'm sure all these very tribal other young men can manage it, the way that 99% of society does.

Otherwise they can end up in prison, where they belong if they can't behave in a civil manner. I imagine when they get there they'll discover they're not as big or hard as they think. There's no justification for it whatsoever. We may have 'primitive' instincts but we're hightly intelligent (well, some of us are) and don't grow up in a jungle.

Again, the vast majority manage to avoid going on a tear up at a game. So the idea that its just within us and we should just accept/tolerate it is nonsense. We've come a long way on this issue and should continue to clamp down on it wherever possible.
 
Jumping Stone Island GIF by Refresj
 
Distaste for scouse said:
You say that in such a rational matter of fact way, but the reality is football plays on our tribal instincts. Evolutionary instincts that aren't going away and do date back to our primitive past.

In a civilised society those callings must be supressed but they still remain just beneath the surface.
Add alcohol into the mix and I can see why it kicks off among young men, who are programmed to be tribal and enjoy a good tear up.

I dabbled on the fringes in my youth, was never a hooligan but on a couple of occassions got swept up in it when it kicked off outside the ground.

When I was growing up and on the night club scene it kicked off most weekends, but I grew up in an army town which was renowned for it. You either fled or you threw a few.

I think its different today with the half and half scarf crowd and I don't think its quite as tribal as it used to be.

Is it a good thing? probably. Means women and kids feel safer going to the football.

You are engaged in such tribal thinking on some level by even supporting the club, the degree to which you are invested depends on your own emotional ties.
You might look down at the violence aspect but you are still drawing on your base animal instincts, the tribalism and feeling of belonging to a tribe that very much comes from primates/Cave people.

As I say we have to supress it in the interest of society, but lets not pretend it isn't there. in all of us.
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You seem to be equating the extent of emotional investment with one's propensity for fighting.... That someone who doesn't "enjoy a good tear up" is somehow less emotionally invested in the fortunes of their football team.

I can understand a refusal to back down or determination to defend one's self in the face of adversity (something that I accept transcends football), but who or what "programmed" you (or alternatively whoever you are referencing) to "enjoy a good tear up"?
 
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Raumdeuterz said:
Incredibly my entire life I've drank alcohol and been to football games and managed to resist the urge to punch anybody, so I'm sure all these very tribal other young men can manage it, the way that 99% of society does.

Otherwise they can end up in prison, where they belong if they can't behave in a civil manner. I imagine when they get there they'll discover they're not as big or hard as they think. There's no justification for it whatsoever. We may have 'primitive' instincts but we're hightly intelligent (well, some of us are) and don't grow up in a jungle.

Again, the vast majority manage to avoid going on a tear up at a game. So the idea that its just within us and we should just accept/tolerate it is nonsense. We've come a long way on this issue and should continue to clamp down on it wherever possible.
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How old are you?

I suspect younger than me, Probably a bit more middle class than me as well. Not that I'm a class warrior.
I'm middle class myself now, but grew up working class.

I'm just saying the experience that some of us grew up with sounds a lot different to yours. Could be generational, could be class based.

In my experience back in the day you had two choices, you either stood your ground and chucked a few or you ran.

I was brought up not to run from anyone and as a result took a good few hidings.

Maybe this is different to your own experience but its not as cut and dry as you are making out.
 
N17-Tommo said:
No colours until you get in the stadium.. Can you imagine one of ours putting a statement like that out. :contelol:
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I remember when I was outside the scumirates with a mate one NLD and 3 Goons ended walking along side us. One of the Goons was saying 'if I see a Tottenham fan on the ground I'm going to give him a kicking' (brave when someone is already down) and against my better judgement I just unzipped my jacket to reveal my Spurs T-Shirt and said 'we are right here son'. Never seen a bloke melt so fast in your whole life.

Lucky for me none of them had any bollocks whatsoever.
 
Distaste for scouse said:
How old are you?

I suspect younger than me, Probably a bit more middle class than me as well. Not that I'm a class warrior.
I'm middle class myself now, but grew up working class.

I'm just saying the experience that some of us grew up with sounds a lot different to yours. Could be generational, could be class based.

In my experience back in the day you had two choices, you either stood your ground and chucked a few or you ran.

I was brought up not to run from anyone and as a result took a good few hidings.

Maybe this is different to your own experience but its not as cut and dry as you are making out.
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I'm in my twenties.


What I'm saying is violence at football games is never justified, and should be stamped out. Is that not cut and dry? You're arguing the context of why it exists, not whether it should. Of course there are people who have had more difficult upbringings and thus fall in to bad crowds/bad behaviours but it's still not justifiable.

Again, the vast majority (Including people from working class backgrounds) manage to avoid getting engaged in this shit. We've come a long way since when this stuff was tolerated, thankfully people didn't take a shrug of the shoulders attitude and tackled it.
 
People do realise the 99.9% of Fans who like a scrap, firstly would never be wearing club colours in the first place and unless provoked would never dream of fighting anywhere like on the highroad where you cant walk more than a metre without being on CCTV!
 
Distaste for scouse said:
How old are you?

I suspect younger than me, Probably a bit more middle class than me as well. Not that I'm a class warrior.
I'm middle class myself now, but grew up working class.

I'm just saying the experience that some of us grew up with sounds a lot different to yours. Could be generational, could be class based.

In my experience back in the day you had two choices, you either stood your ground and chucked a few or you ran.

I was brought up not to run from anyone and as a result took a good few hidings.

Maybe this is different to your own experience but its not as cut and dry as you are making out.
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Sounds like my upbringing. Was survival of the fittest. If you turned the other cheek you'd get a right hander on that one as well.
 
Raumdeuterz said:
I'm in my twenties.


What I'm saying is violence at football games is never justified, and should be stamped out. Is that not cut and dry? You're arguing the context of why it exists, not whether it should. Of course there are people who have had more difficult upbringings and thus fall in to bad crowds/bad behaviours but it's still not justifiable.

Again, the vast majority (Including people from working class backgrounds) manage to avoid getting engaged in this shit. We've come a long way since when this stuff was tolerated, thankfully people didn't take a shrug of the shoulders attitude and tackled it.
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Figures, I'm more than twice your age.

It was very different back in the day. Not just the football but every Friday/Saturday night it was a warzone if you weren't careful.

Just to be clear I wasn't condoning anything simply stating that I know where it comes from.

Perhaps you younger chaps have just evolved to a higher plane than us relics.

It is also class based, I'd imagine most of the boys on the Spurs firm these days don't have a lot else going on in their lives, its very similar to wider inter city gangs.

To combat something you have to understand where it comes from, and I'm not sure you do.
 
Distaste for scouse said:
Figures, I'm more than twice your age.

It was very different back in the day. Not just the football but every Friday/Saturday night it was a warzone if you weren't careful.

Just to be clear I wasn't condoning anything simply stating that I know where it comes from.

Perhaps you younger chaps have just evolved to a higher plane than us relics.

It is also class based, I'd imagine most of the boys on the Spurs firm these days don't have a lot else going on in their lives, its very similar to wider inter city gangs.

To combat something you have to understand where it comes from, and I'm not sure you do.
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It was different & then society collectively decided we're not tolerating this and now it's not as tolerated, which is generally how we manage to progress. Now we're at a point where it exists but on a much smaller level, but we still absolutely should continue to be extremely vigilant and ready to stamp it out if it resurfaces.
 
Fattynomates said:
www.statista.com

London knife crime 2024 | Statista

Knife crime in London has increased significantly in recent years, reaching a peak in 2019/20, and remaining at high levels since then.
www.statista.com www.statista.com
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Yeah thanks, I'm well aware of knife crime issues. They're committed by a small % of the population who tend to re-offend, so the majority still manage to avoid committing violence, either at football matches or elsewhere.

Either way it isn't acceptable, whether you grew up in a council estate or a mansion.
 
Raumdeuterz said:
It was different & then society collectively decided we're not tolerating this and now it's not as tolerated, which is generally how we manage to progress. Now we're at a point where it exists but on a much smaller level, but we still absolutely should continue to be extremely vigilant and ready to stamp it out if it resurfaces.
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Can I just ask you a personal question, feel free not to answer. What would you do if somebody ran up to you and chinned you at the football? Would you stand your ground or run?
 
Raumdeuterz said:
It was different & then society collectively decided we're not tolerating this and now it's not as tolerated, which is generally how we manage to progress. Now we're at a point where it exists but on a much smaller level, but we still absolutely should continue to be extremely vigilant and ready to stamp it out if it resurfaces.
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Please don't go Sunday. You will be mightily upset/disappointed.
 
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