Tottenham Hotspur vs Liverpool, 28/01, 8PM KO

  • The Fighting Cock is a forum for fans of Tottenham Hotspur Football Club. Here you can discuss Spurs latest matches, our squad, tactics and any transfer news surrounding the club. Registration gives you access to all our forums (including 'Off Topic' discussion) and removes most of the adverts (you can remove them all via an account upgrade). You're here now, you might as well...

    Get involved!

Latest Spurs videos from Sky Sports

Sort by date Sort by reaction score
Team Tanguy said:
Care to explain why Levy hired Jose and why there were reputable papers saying Jose's explanation of his new system convinced or played a part in Levy hiring him?
Or was that all made up and Levy offered Jose the job based on *checks notes* ... his history with clubs who spend obscene amounts.

Or is it gona be more of the "Can you prove we're not living in the matrix? What is life? Neither of us can be ever be proven right so who knows?" bollocks?
Click to expand...
Obviously Jose blagged at the interview, if you want to call it that - certainly he would have tried to convince Levy that he could 'make the difference' etc - who in the world ever attended any interview for any job and didn't do that? The whole point of a job interview is to sell yourself to your prospective employer. So what?

Anyway it wasn't really the point I was making - I was just pointing out that assuming other people are 'stuck' because they don't agree with you is very narrow-minded - people can have different opinions to you, doesn't necessarily mean either of you are right or wrong. Talk of 'living in the matrix' etc seems to suggest that you don't recognise that sometimes different contrasting opinions can be equally valid.

EDIT: Yes I removed the 'narrow-minded' part from my earlier post as on reflection it seemed rude to say that on the basis of just a few posts. I have made a less accusatory mention of narrow-mindedness generally above instead.
 
I really hate to use the Phrase Dr Tottenham but how can you explain it otherwise? Why when a team is in such shite form do we seem to be the ones to help get them back to winning ways? I knew seeing Liverpool lose 1-0 at home before playing us there was no way they would lose 2 in a row , anyway it’s done now let’s concentrate on top 4 and a few cups and it could still be a decent season!
 
scarletjim said:
Obviously Jose blagged at the interview, if you want to call it that - certainly he would have tried to convince Levy that he could 'make the difference' etc - who in the world ever attended any interview for any job and didn't do that? The whole point of a job interview is to sell yourself to your prospective employer. So what?

Anyway it wasn't really the point I was making - I was just pointing out that assuming other people are 'stuck' because they don't agree with you is very narrow-minded - people can have different opinions to you, doesn't necessarily mean either of you are right or wrong. Talk of 'living in the matrix' etc seems to suggest that you don't recognise that sometimes different contrasting opinions can be equally valid.
Click to expand...
I said Jose blagged. You basically say now that I'm stating the obvious so you agree with me.
The other guy said that blagging didn't happen. I asked what did happen then. He couldn't answer. I said he's stuck cos he is stuck! You came in with this "no, say 'we're stuck'" baloney.

The point is Jose blagged it so must pay the price for not being competent enough to do what he was meant to do. There's still time but it's not looking good at all.

People make claims about Jose (like how he may be suffering from being unlucky with defenders who don't focus).
I refute those claims and cite why.
That leaves behind the remaining possibilities that he's just a shit coach who needs elite talent.
It's logical deduction. Not refusal to accept different views.
 
Team Tanguy said:
I said Jose blagged. You basically say now that I'm stating the obvious so you agree with me.
The other guy said that blagging didn't happen. I asked what did happen then. He couldn't answer. I said he's stuck cos he is stuck! You came in with this "no, say 'we're stuck'" baloney.

The point is Jose blagged it so must pay the price for not being competent enough to do what he was meant to do. There's still time but it's not looking good at all.

People make claims about Jose (like how he may be suffering from being unlucky with defenders who don't focus).
I refute those claims and cite why.
That leaves behind the remaining possibilities that he's just a shit coach who needs elite talent.
It's logical deduction. Not refusal to accept different views.
Click to expand...
When you say "I refute those claims and cite why", I don't believe we ever reached any logical conclusion on that at all, I think we agreed to disagree. I asked:

"So you think that players like Dier, Aurier, Rodon, Doherty, Toby, Davies and Sanchez are top class defenders, players who right now would command a place in a side in the top 3 teams in the Premier League?"

You replied that Jose chose them or likes them, I replied that for me this doesn't mean that they can't be held accountable for their mistakes, and are still not top class defenders, you then said (honorably to be fair) that WE have exhausted ourselves and should agree to disagree.

The above doesn't result in a logical conclusion, it surely demonstrates that we have different opinions on the matter, however for me it's rather telling that I can see your point of view, but you don't seem to be able to see mine (nor that of the guy you had a subsequent debate with).

Talk of 'discarding nonsense' only adds to what I'm saying - I don’t consider any of your points to be ‘nonsense’, I think them to be plausible arguments that I and/or others happen to not necessarily agree with. I recognised in the last few pages that you could possibly be right about Jose being ultimately the reason for the defenders regularly making individual errors, but I also accepted that there could be other reasons, because I am open-minded and conscious of the fact that I am not always right about everything. You appear to be able to see only the cause that you think to be 'right', and that could only possibly be the ‘right’ answer, apparently incapable of recognising that actually you might be wrong and another cause might be the main driver, despite me also citing the reasons for my views. That's all I'm saying.

So when you say "It's logical deduction. Not refusal to accept different views" surely it's actually logical deduction based on discarding as 'nonsense' the views of anyone who doesn't agree with you despite them explaining their reasoning for doing so. Which for me is a rather spurious definition of logic.

Anyway we're probably not getting anywhere (again) - apologies for sticking my nose in, I probably shouldn't have even commented on your subsequent debate, it was just the seemingly arrogant "you're stuck" that irked me (a bit like people who write 'Fact' at the end of their opinions and somehow think it magically turns them into irrefutable facts) but it's none of my business, I'm sure Château NoHo Château NoHo is more than capable of defending themselves.

No offence / irritation intended - have a good Sunday. :)
 
Team Tanguy said:
No need for a politician's answer.

5th is complete failure unless he wins the Europa.
Imagine no Kane, Son, Ndombele, Hojbjerg etc in the champions league. Would be unacceptable.
Click to expand...
It only takes the most cursory of glances at our fixture list this season to see that Kane, Son, Ndombele, Hojbjerg, etc find it quite acceptable to to not be in the Champions League.
 
scarletjim said:
"So you think that players like Dier, Aurier, Rodon, Doherty, Toby, Davies and Sanchez are top class defenders, players who right now would command a place in a side in the top 3 teams in the Premier League?"

You replied that Jose chose them or likes them, I replied that for me this doesn't mean that they can't be held accountable for their mistakes, and are still not top class defenders, you then said (honorably to be fair) that WE have exhausted ourselves and should agree to disagree.

The above doesn't result in a logical conclusion, it surely demonstrates that we have different opinions on the matter, however for me it's rather telling that I can see your point of view, but you don't seem to be able to see mine (nor that of the guy you had a subsequent debate with).

Talk of 'discarding nonsense' only adds to what I'm saying - I don’t consider any of your points to be ‘nonsense’, I think them to be plausible arguments that I and/or others happen to not necessarily agree with. I recognised in the last few pages that you could possibly be right about Jose being ultimately the reason for the defenders regularly making individual errors, but I also accepted that there could be other reasons, because I am open-minded and conscious of the fact that I am not always right about everything. You appear to be able to see only the cause that you think to be 'right', and that could only possibly be the ‘right’ answer, apparently incapable of recognising that actually you might be wrong and another cause might be the main driver, despite me also citing the reasons for my views. That's all I'm saying.

So when you say "It's logical deduction. Not refusal to accept different views" surely it's actually logical deduction based on discarding as 'nonsense' the views of anyone who doesn't agree with you despite them explaining their reasoning for doing so. Which for me is a rather spurious definition of logic.
Click to expand...
I'll explain how I'm using logic and deduction

Before Jose we had a certain calibre of players. And hit certain heights.

Jose came in and was useless with those SAME players in the context of how we previously performed.

He got NINE more in and we're still looking crap. That's on him. He wanted this job knowing the situation.

You're saying that instead of blaming Jose we should consider that maybe the awful defending is due to any combination of Jose's incompetence, player ability, focus or decline.

We got top 4 finishes, had title challenges, reached a CL final with this group of internationals. Are they good enough for top 3 teams?
Maybe not under most managers! But under Poch they still achieved higher than their level (if it's the the case they're not good enough for top sides) and we sacked him. That has to be the standard.
Unless you're suggesting it's unfair to expect Jose to perform at least as well as the guy he was sacked for without being given bundles of cash for elite players?

We're also playing atrocious football defending aside. We barely create chances or string passes together. Is this possibly unrelated to Jose too? Are attacking players losing focus and making mistakes out of Jose's control? Maybe the whole squad is making mistakes that poor Jose can't control since the attack is also dire right?

Since we now know the players have it in them to be better based on recent history-
That leaves only conspiracy theories that players either suddenly become incompetent and full of mistakes as soon as Jose came or they're not trying.

Since we see how SILLY that reasoning is-
We scratch off player ability and focus. DISCARDED

That leaves Jose responsible.

You are now stuck trying to explain why I was wrong to call the other guy stuck re: blagging and waffling about my tone.
 
Team Tanguy said:
I'll explain how I'm using logic and deduction

Before Jose we had a certain calibre of players. And hit certain heights.

Jose came in and was useless with those SAME players in the context of how we previously performed.

He got NINE more in and we're still looking crap. That's on him. He wanted this job knowing the situation.

You're saying that instead of blaming Jose we should consider that maybe the awful defending is due to any combination of Jose's incompetence, player ability, focus or decline.

We got top 4 finishes, had title challenges, reached a CL final with this group of internationals. Are they good enough for top 3 teams?
Maybe not under most managers! But under Poch they still achieved higher than their level (if it's the the case they're not good enough for top sides) and we sacked him. That has to be the standard.
Unless you're suggesting it's unfair to expect Jose to perform at least as well as the guy he was sacked for without being given bundles of cash for elite players?

We're also playing atrocious football defending aside. We barely create chances or string passes together. Is this possibly unrelated to Jose too? Are attacking players losing focus and making mistakes out of Jose's control? Maybe the whole squad is making mistakes that poor Jose can't control since the attack is also dire right?

Since we now know the players have it in them to be better based on recent history-
That leaves only conspiracy theories that players either suddenly become incompetent and full of mistakes as soon as Jose came or they're not trying.

Since we see how SILLY that reasoning is-
We scratch off player ability and focus. DISCARDED

That leaves Jose responsible.

You are now stuck trying to explain why I was wrong to call the other guy stuck re: blagging and waffling about my tone.
Click to expand...
"Before Jose we had a certain calibre of players. And hit certain heights. Jose came in and was useless with those SAME players in the context of how we previously performed."

I think this is the bit we fundamentally disagree on. Many people (me included) believe that reaching the CL final was papering over the cracks of what was already happening - look at our league form for that entire calendar year, not just the odd blip, but terrible performances and results one after another. If that wasn't the case, why do you think Poch was sacked? Don't get me wrong, I loved Poch, and I hope he comes back here and wins something with us one day, personally I'd much rather win stuff with Poch than with Mourinho (but I'd also rather win stuff with Mou than win nothing with Poch) - but to suggest that the team were very successful just before Mourinho arrived simply isn't true. A couple of years before perhaps, but not in the year that Mourinho arrived.

Now, why were we so poor in Poch's last 10 months (or for some people considerably longer)? God knows, there a loads of possible reasons, for most people it was probably that the squad got stale due to lack of investment, but we also can't ignore the decline and/or changing attitudes of some players. Jan was getting past it, we could all see that, and that isn't Mourinho's fault. Toby is looking increasingly like he's past it too. Dele had stopped performing well long before Mourinho arrived. Erikssen had made it clear that he wanted to leave. There were already numerous problems with the squad, the performances and the results when Mourinho took over. Should Mourinho have insisted on making a top CB his priority signing? Of course - I don't think many people would challenge that. But that isn't what you and I were debating.

Much of the rest of your post I agree with - for example that we are playing atrocious football, conceding too much possession, not creating enough chances etc - I've never argued against any of that, and again it wasn't the debate that you and I were having. Our debate was whether or not individuals should get any portion of the blame when they make mistakes - you basically said no, i said yes. And I've yet to read anything from you to explain why a defender shouldn't be asked "why the fuck did you do that?" from time to time.

"You are now stuck trying to explain why I was wrong to call the other guy stuck re: blagging and waffling about my tone."

I don't believe I am 'stuck' doing that at all. I wasn't challenging your argument to him, just your arrogance / rudeness / inability to see another's point of view. I see your posts on this thread littered with sarcastic lols, a 'sigh' aimed at me, calling another guy 'stuck' because he disagrees with you, calling an argument 'SILLY' because you don't agree with it, and accusing me of 'waffling' when I call you out on that somewhat immature use of language when debating. It all just backs up that you simply can't accept someone has a different point of view to yours.
 
sammyspurs said:
See you in May with your tail between your legs.

Please don’t hold it against me when I quote you that you was genuinely scared by Woolwich

👍
Click to expand...

I can’t believe they are that close to us tbh. But they are.

Last 5 / 6 games they have caught us up - so either they will drop off again or they have found form. I never watch them. So I really couldn’t say which it is.


In ten games we have less points they have in 6 games ....! So 10 games from now..... fuck knows. Whose form is currently temporary???


3g1jju.jpg
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom