Are Leicester really well invested or spam? Look at the players Rodgers works with Jonny Evans and albrighton and yet he still makes Leicester play a brand of football which is million miles away from us and that of what his players cost. It’s not all about spending loads. Jose spent loads at all his previous clubs and still played the sane way. I don’t buy this rubbish that with the players we have we can’t play an attacking brand of football that impose us on the opposition and say hey we are Tottenham and we arnt gonna lay down for anyone. We certainly don’t have the players to play this rubbish style we currently play. In fact when we have played more on the front foot and started attacking teams we actually look reasonably good so I don’t know why we don’t more often. Well I do it’s bcos of the manager who insists on us being a league two team playing 1970 brazil every game.
-
The Fighting Cock is a forum for fans of Tottenham Hotspur Football Club. Here you can discuss Spurs latest matches, our squad, tactics and any transfer news surrounding the club. Registration gives you access to all our forums (including 'Off Topic' discussion) and removes most of the adverts (you can remove them all via an account upgrade). You're here now, you might as well...
Match Tottenham Hotspur vs Liverpool, 28/01, 8PM KO
- Thread starter SpursRomania
- Start date
Latest Spurs videos from Sky Sports
Oh I agree , we are not a shite team at all, we have some very good players . It’s just sadly we have some very average players with limited ability that bring our level down . We arnt shite , but neither are we very good . We are somewhere in between .
You are right about far larger investment and also better quality from other teams . But some of our signings really do beggar belief .
a part of it is probably mourinhos tactics , combined with lower half teams using no fans to their advantage
I agree that we shouldn't "attack" players, but I believe we are all within our rights to point out their individual errors. And I'm sure Jose and the players concerned will be looking at them too.
For example, surely Lloris, Dier and Mourinho will sit down with the defensive coaches and have an open and frank discussion about what went through their minds for the first goal. Did they make a conscious decision to leave it for each other? Or was it instinctive? If it was the latter, how can the defensive coaches change that so the instinct becomes to put the ball into row Z if necessary, even if it means cleaning each other out, rather than leaving it and hoping your colleague will sort it out?
Similarly for the 3rd goal, Rodon will surely be asking himself why he didn't deal with that cross, as will Mourinho and the defensive coaches, so I don't see why we shouldn't.
There seems to be quite a lot of polarisation on this match thread with quite a few people in one of two camps:
Either:
1. We lost because of individual errors made by defenders (Lloris x 2, Dier, Rodon, Aurier), and there is little or nothing Mourinho could have done about that.
...Or...
2. We lost because the whole performance was terrible because the tactics, selection and subs were poor and that's all on Mourinho.
In reality surely there is significant validity in both, it doesn't have to be one or the other.
I don't like to see players as you say 'attacked' (some of the treatment on this forum of players like Winks and Sissoko is shocking, it's almost as though people wish them physical harm or misfortune...
There should be a great difference between 'hating' and 'not rating'...), but on the other hand it's absolutely legitimate to point at individual errors where they cost us heavily, as clearly they did in this game. Hopefully the in-house inquests will gradually improve some of the decision-making (though I'm not holding my breath...), as individual defensive errors are absolutely killing us this season more than ever. Whether those errors are down to poor players, poor concentration, or an overload of pressure on them brought about by Jose's tactics, is very much down to our individual interpretations, but there is no point in pretending that those individual errors aren't there and don't keep killing us. I agree that we shouldn't "attack" players, but I believe we are all within our rights to point out their individual errors. And I'm sure Jose and the players concerned will be looking at them too.
For example, surely Lloris, Dier and Mourinho will sit down with the defensive coaches and have an open and frank discussion about what went through their minds for the first goal. Did they make a conscious decision to leave it for each other? Or was it instinctive? If it was the latter, how can the defensive coaches change that so the instinct becomes to put the ball into row Z if necessary, even if it means cleaning each other out, rather than leaving it and hoping your colleague will sort it out?
Similarly for the 3rd goal, Rodon will surely be asking himself why he didn't deal with that cross, as will Mourinho and the defensive coaches, so I don't see why we shouldn't.
There seems to be quite a lot of polarisation on this match thread with quite a few people in one of two camps:
Either:
1. We lost because of individual errors made by defenders (Lloris x 2, Dier, Rodon, Aurier), and there is little or nothing Mourinho could have done about that.
...Or...
2. We lost because the whole performance was terrible because the tactics, selection and subs were poor and that's all on Mourinho.
In reality surely there is significant validity in both, it doesn't have to be one or the other.
I don't like to see players as you say 'attacked' (some of the treatment on this forum of players like Winks and Sissoko is shocking, it's almost as though people wish them physical harm or misfortune...
Very good post mate but the issue is why they occur?
If it's in.the DNA of the players then it's hard to change. If it's a fear of the manager and repercussions then I don't see how that changes because Mourinho is what he is.
I made a clear point previously that as a player who plays under Mourinho you must possess a certain strength of character or you wilt.
When things were going well then players were not under so much pressure. Now we can see what happens when it changes.
Not sure it's as simple as analysing things and hey Peter I, and you also have to factor in the sense of inferiority our players evidently feel when playing Liverpool.
Notabadsquad
Hmmm, so then I don't think we disagree, and I don't think any of us is quite sure why these errors keep occurring.
I should probably have given a third option above (or maybe it's just an addendum to option 1) - that we don't buy good enough players. But I absolutely recognise the financial constraints that we have to work to, and I don't want or expect Levy to bankrupt ENIC or the club to bankroll lots of £70m+ players. Fans who think we should be spending £300m on players every year are living in a fantasy land. That said, as relatively high level professionals, is it really normal that pretty much all of our defenders regularly make such game-changing individual errors?
I do recognise the point about Mourinho making players scared to fail, and that one is of course a fine line - you don't want players thinking it's fine to fail and it doesn't matter, but at the same time you don't want them to be so terrified that it is all they think of, as that obviously impacts their concentration and perversely makes them more likely to fuck up.
So yes I do appreciate that looking at individual goals alone would be failing to see the bigger picture, but we do have to do both, not just one - I do want Jose, Lloris and Dier to discuss that first goal, but you are quite right in that I also want them to discuss why the cause of that first goal exists, i.e. whether they did or didn't make a conscious decision to do what they did, what is the underlying reason for that, are they simply too frightened of making a mistake, are they overloaded with pressure etc.
It's all so complicated, and so much more than just "who has more skill at football". Perhaps that's part of what makes it the beautiful game.
I should probably have given a third option above (or maybe it's just an addendum to option 1) - that we don't buy good enough players. But I absolutely recognise the financial constraints that we have to work to, and I don't want or expect Levy to bankrupt ENIC or the club to bankroll lots of £70m+ players. Fans who think we should be spending £300m on players every year are living in a fantasy land. That said, as relatively high level professionals, is it really normal that pretty much all of our defenders regularly make such game-changing individual errors?
I do recognise the point about Mourinho making players scared to fail, and that one is of course a fine line - you don't want players thinking it's fine to fail and it doesn't matter, but at the same time you don't want them to be so terrified that it is all they think of, as that obviously impacts their concentration and perversely makes them more likely to fuck up.
So yes I do appreciate that looking at individual goals alone would be failing to see the bigger picture, but we do have to do both, not just one - I do want Jose, Lloris and Dier to discuss that first goal, but you are quite right in that I also want them to discuss why the cause of that first goal exists, i.e. whether they did or didn't make a conscious decision to do what they did, what is the underlying reason for that, are they simply too frightened of making a mistake, are they overloaded with pressure etc.
It's all so complicated, and so much more than just "who has more skill at football". Perhaps that's part of what makes it the beautiful game.
Spurs tied for 2nd best defense this season (GA).
With how defensive we set up and play we should be right at the top.
The concern is that we can't maintain that level of defense and effectively create attacks as well.
It is also why we struggle to hold leads and have so many issues with set pieces and individual errors. Our defense isn't good because of our players, outside of Toby and Lloris, it is good because we sacrifice so much to try and defend.
It also is a good representation why stats alone are so shitty and useless.
The concern is that we can't maintain that level of defense and effectively create attacks as well.
It is also why we struggle to hold leads and have so many issues with set pieces and individual errors. Our defense isn't good because of our players, outside of Toby and Lloris, it is good because we sacrifice so much to try and defend.
It also is a good representation why stats alone are so shitty and useless.
By the way, if anyone wants cheering up (not), the 1987 FA Cup Final against Coventry is (inexplicably) on ITV4HD at 6pm. Just don't blame me if you slit your wrists by the end of the night. 
I'd be quite interested to see such a table for goals conceded due to individual defensive errors (whilst of course accepting that any such table would contain a lot of subjectivity - but some goals are very obviously just excellent play by the opposition, whereas goals scored as a result of things like nothing balls not being cleared are clearly just basic errors).
Spurs tied for 2nd best defense this season (GA).
Great "analysis".
Only 4 clubs have a better offense than us this season and they've all played a match or 2 > than Spurs.
Great "analysis".
Only 4 clubs have a better offense than us this season and they've all played a match or 2 > than Spurs.
By all means stick your tables they show so much.
Unfortunately the only table that actually matters has us in 6th.
So you can cry and whine about us being 2nd in GA and pretend like that matters at all. The rest of us will look at our position in the table and see the reasons why being 2nd in GA is not resulting in us being higher up the actual table that matters.
scarletjim
You are correct in that sometimes players just make mistakes and the manager is not to blame. But you can't use that again and again and again. This team has been in title challenges and reached a champions league final. We have fully established internationals, cup winners and captains.
Is it all a conspiracy where they're purposely playing below their levels?
Or are we uniquely effected by mentally fragile players to an unprecedented extent?
It's neither. We simply must look at the conditions the manager creates for the players. We barely mount any attacks and are constantly under pressure. Any pro except elite level expensive ones which Jose craves would suffer.
Jose's gaslighting is working on you. Join the rest of the sane world.
By all means continue with your insipid opinion pieces they show so much.
Like saying the reason we're tied for second in GA is because we set up "so defensive", yet we're also one of the best offensive teams.
Like using confirmation bias to support your dumb takes.
We've lost 4 times all season (2x Liverpool, Leicester, and Everton -- first match of season).
We've had a late handball decision go against us that was so egregious, the league changed the rules midseason.
Win Sunday and we're 1 pt from 4th and 8 pts from 1st with half the fucking season left, you knob.
LOL
We score goals because Kane and Son started the season in unprecedented form, breaking records and yet still even with that incredible play we are close to the top not at the top. Our attack is based solely on those two having individual brilliance so they can make up for our defensive tactics.
Ignoring this is just flat out stupid, It isn't my opinion it is fact.
If's and maybe's are great but they don't change what is fact. 1 point from 4th isn't impressive, 8 points from 1st isn't impressive either and that is with your if's and maybe's.
Continue to go along with your head in the sand looking at meaningless tables and ignoring what is actually happening on the field. Unfortunately for you, you ignoring reality doesn't change the actual only table that matters, the one you want to ignore.
When you say that Jose's gaslighting is working on me, I'm not sure what you mean - in my posts on this thread, I've not really given a definite opinion one way or the other have I? I have accepted that perhaps it is Jose's tactics, or even his making players fear to make mistakes, that could be the cause, haven't I?
But you can't use that again and again and again. This team has been in title challenges and reached a champions league final. We have fully established internationals, cup winners and captains.
Is it all a conspiracy where they're purposely playing below their levels?
Or are we uniquely effected by mentally fragile players to an unprecedented extent?
It's neither. We simply must look at the conditions the manager creates for the players. We barely mount any attacks and are constantly under pressure. Any pro except elite level expensive ones which Jose craves would suffer.
Jose's gaslighting is working on you. Join the rest of the sane world.
So I'm not sure what I've said that has convinced you that I'm 100% behind what Mourinho is doing. I've pointed out that there are multiple contrasting but valid opinions, any of which could be correct - and I stand by that. You can't be certain of what's causing individual errors any more than I can. :/
You're entertaining a silly idea and essentially saying "Yes, maybe. Can you prove it's not?" to the following 2 qs-
Is it all a conspiracy where they're purposely playing below their levels?
Or are we uniquely effected by mentally fragile players to an unprecedented extent?
Sigh
Erm no I'm not, and I don't really understand from my posts why you think that. :/
Of course I'm not suggesting it's a conspiracy theory, or that we, and only we, are affected by a mental fragility that is somehow in the DNA of the club - what on earth have I said to make you think that is what I believe on either account? :/ My point is that there are numerous possible causes, including but not limited to:
- Mourinho's tactics
- Mourinho's instilling of fear in the player with regard to making mistakes
- our defenders just not being good enough quality, irrespective of the manager
- our defenders not concentrating enough, for whatever reason (could be the Mourinho effect, could be their personalities / lack of professionalism, could be something else)
Sorry but I'm really not clear at all on where you disagree with me. :/
But we know it's not that cos we have internationals, captains, players who were in titles challenges and a CL final, players who got top top 4 and top 3 and top 2. These aren't random youth players we've never seen.
And why does it go further up the pitch- we're ridiculously shit at creating chances. Are the mf and attackers possibly losing concentration too lol?
You keep looking for silly explanations when it's right in front of you for sake of reducing blame on Jose.
I'm struggling with your first sentence. So you think that players like Dier, Aurier, Rodon, Doherty, Toby, Davies and Sanchez are top class defenders, players who right now would command a place in a side in the top 3 teams in the Premier League? Really?
Jose wanted Dier
Jose gave Toby a new contract
Jose signed Rodon
Jose signed Doherty
Jose cried that our whole tactics had to change when Davies was injured
Aurier managed to become PSGs RB. He's bossed for us in many games against top 6 teams and in the CL. Wasn't he great against Pool away this season too?
Sanchez when being coached well was fine alongside a more experienced head. He even got to a Europa final with Ajax.
So you're saying Jose needs better players. But also that he signs shit ones. And since we know Jose wants to control who comes in the solution is give him lots of money lol?