I think I may be going deaf, I didn't hear any significant booing, no more than usual anyway.
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Match Tottenham Hotspur vs Liverpool | 6 Nov 2022 | KO 16:30 | Second Half Match Thread
- Thread starter deadleyledley
- Start date
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Thank you for this level headed observation.
Sadly most of the people on here seem to need a scapegoat to hang, and simply go for the low hanging fruit
Can you see us beating both forest and Leeds because I can't
Nothing is easy for us at present but I was buoyed by our performance in the second half.
I don't think we will lose both games. The Leeds match needs to be won..
I think forest will definitely beat us, partly because we will play a weakened side, are yes need to beat Leeds.
We haven’t dropped any what I would call ‘silly points’ this season. We’ve picked up 2 from 15 from 5 games against what will be the Top
7 sides and drew at Spammers, always a tough game with a high of dropping points. Wait until we start messing up there, probably staring against Leeds this weekend.
7 sides and drew at Spammers, always a tough game with a high of dropping points. Wait until we start messing up there, probably staring against Leeds this weekend.
Without Kane and Kulusevski it's hard to see us scoring and Hjojberg and Bentancur need a rest so yes, Forest might be a task too far.
Yeah and if you read other posts of mine, I completely agree that there is a time and place for booing with the Nuno debacle a prime example of that. Not booing every single match at half time is more the point I'm making.
No, not the booing police just raising a point that was mentioned to the manager our football team who said it was 'disappointing'. There is no need for it with the stage we're at. Fans need to be more patient rather that this modern day attitude of wanting instant success straight away.
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I thought we were ok for the first 20-25 minutes against the worst looking Liverpool I’ve seen for a few years (in terms of intensity and cohesion), but gradually stopped trying to compete and reverted back to passively plodding around our own back third of the pitch until halftime.
Putting aside what my preference for "playing well" means, I'm talking about the context of Conte and his very risk averse approach.
Yesterday probably wasn't the worst example, and Bournemouth wasn't terrible either, even first half, but Newcastle was a total mess that went up and down the pitch at times.
What I'm really talking about more than anything is the way, even when we are supposedly "choosing" to be in the "absorb and counter" phase, we are way to lethargic, passive and ploddy. We stand off people, give them too much time and space and winning the ball back way too deep and in poor positions to transition into attack.
There's a general lack of intensity and aggression, until we are fucked.
I don't remember his Inter or Chelsea teams being so passive and ploddy.
Firstly, I don not buy this "we plan to only play the second half of games" and secondly, my complaint is what we are doing during the first half - reactive (or whatever you want to call it) - phase. It's too fucking flimsy, and is why we are constantly conceding goals.
We are in the bottom half of the league (just) for possession, our seasonal heat map shows we only control our penalty area, the sacrifice is presumably supposed to be for defensive solidity, but we are only 6/7th in the league for XGA, and are 6th for XG. Our results are actually outperforming the metrics.
Well, yes, that is how Conte's system is supposed to work. You push early, get a goal or two up, then rest and shell and hopefully counter and add a goal or two more on the break as they take the risks.
Even he has said what's happening isn't a plan. Even Conte (and various players) have post match said this isn't the plan, we want more aggression and control of games first half.
This is my biggest issue, we are too passive, even in the reactive/deeper phase. We aren't dynamic or aggressive enough. We aren't winning it quick or high enough and we aren't countering and creating enough chances.
We are chundering along OK, but I think we are outperforming our metrics (and performances) and that usually isn't sustainable.
Not everything is Conte's fault, we have some really fucking ho hum players who don't belong in a anywhere near a "top 6" team, Son's been as chocolate teapot as ever but isn't decorating it with goals like he usually does, and even Kane has looked really clumsy lately. Losing Kulusevski hurt us more than it should - an indictment of how poor our attacking options are that he has become so useful so quickly.
But you don't need world beaters to be aggressive and dynamic.
Again, it's not just a stylistic thing IMO. Even in the reactive phases we are too passive IMO.
In terms of points, based on this squad's deficiencies (and it's injuries etc) none of us can grumble, and he earned his salary getting this bunch in the CL last year.
I don't buy the WC excuse, and I don't think we are worse off points wise than we should be either, there's been a couple we've definitely got more than we deserve too (Chelsea, Brighton spring to mind). I do think we deserved more out that Liverpool game though on balance.
He really ought to drop dier when Romero is back. Or play jasphet give the younger players a chance. Unfortunately he just sticks
also many on here kept justifying our crap performances saying we had more points from those early fixtures than in the reverse fixtures last season. Well last we thumped barcodes 5-1 I think and we drew with dippers twice. So we are down on those fixtures.
Was Rodon that bad!
Hardly ever then keeps moaning about injuries,, rotation, too many games , etc. Really contradicts his words by his actions.
Exactly even Alison and vdv. Would have loved to seen Gil foi g his close control trickery at oil tanker konate. Was willing for him to come on but alasconte being too negative only made 3 subs with Lucas on at 88 mins. What is the point especially if he wasn’t fit where as Gil seems fit and has done well recently when coming on. Conte never rewards good performances only bad ones by playing those players again. Did we need 3 CBs on as well when klopp basically went defensive. Absolute joke game management. Would love to hear his view on why Gil wasn’t given a sniff. I’m sure he could have won us a pen or free kick.
2 days later
Still want to punch the red in the gusset
Still want to punch the red in the gusset
Really good post BC.
The WC excuse bit I'd argue with though, at least from my own perspective. I think the WC has been offered up as a contributory factor, rather than the reason behind our passive approach to games. There's obviously more than just that. As usual, there's more than just a single reason behind a teams approach to a game.
Your reasoning though I can't fault.
I haven't mastered the multi-quote option on here so forgive my lose reply.
I'm not in disagreement with many of the things you state, just merely trying to make sense of how we're playing the way we are and offer a counter position, even if I don't necessarily endorse it - I'm just chucking things out there for debate in the absence of a glaringly obvious problem.
My overriding position is Conte knows what he's doing, he's controlling the deck that he has, against the oppo he knows, within the backdrop and context of a fucked up condensed league this season. All the underlying matrix supports a huge swing of control when compared to the previous two regimes and is backed up by results too. (we couldn't have been any worse than under Jose/Nuno & he's totally turned that on it's head). There are no cracks in the team unity, everyone appears to be fully on board and includes those on the fringes, not a murmur of discontent, even from Conte.
I've been questioning Conte's reluctance to play a 5 man midfield, ever since last season's game against LFC and have scratched my head why he hasn't opted to do this. The irony is that in recent games he's done exactly this (hand has been forced due to player availability) and we've looked in far more "control" (careful with what this actually means), basically not having our mid-outnumbered, which makes for a better watching experience............BUT we've fucking lost and almost all of us have been happy with the performance (if not the result).
We have played with long spells without the ball and looked "passive" sure, but we DO engage aggressively from a mid/low-block so not entirely true that we are "passive" IMO. Perhaps I'm splitting hairs but "passive" = Jose, where we didn't engage the oppo anywhere on the pitch. Under Conte this simply isn't the case, Bentancur & PEH switch positions (one pushes on, whilst the other drops in) throughout the entire game (talking specifically when we are without the ball here and when in a mid/low block) to press the man on the ball, what they aren't trying to do is win the ball back in this mode. When we have chosen to attack, their press is very different, it's together at the same time and the purpose is to win the ball back, both of them (especially Bentancur) are often pushing ahead of the front 2 onto a CB or 'Keeper (but this is only happening when were are in an attacking phase. Our defence is also aggressive in their block, the only player not coming out to challenge is the Central CB).
So, what I'm seeing is a very, very deliberate shift in what we are doing without the ball when we are "attacking/chasing a game" and this doesn't even bring into the equation of how the rest of the team repositions which is usually having a Wingback stay up high and out wide, have one of the wide CB's push up very advanced (since losing Romero Dier has been very impressive in this phase and when we had Romero the CB that fulfilled this was more than likely Davies on the left, but IMO with less effectiveness than Dier is achieving currently on the right (Lenglet has tried this and wasn't very good at it and even big Dave, when selected, has a go. Romero is very different from all of them in this phase as he's usually looking to break up an attack aggressively and then release the ball to feet quickly to PEH/Bentancur or to Kane dropping into midfield, you don't see him regularly join attacks in repeatable moves when he does it's more opportunistic (I think we use him to be the player to engage a counter against us when PEH/Bentancur are pushed up and are bypassed leaving Dier (or central CB as the last cover in front of Lloris).
The above cycle/pattern is repeated in most games (just subtle changes whether we've got a midfield 3 or 2 on how and where we advance the ball as a result) the team dynamic to me is clear and demonstrates a planned, drilled method on the approach to a game and the relative game state we are in.
What I can't offer is a why? Why do we do this? And when do we choose to do this? Is it because of a condensed season, so are we deliberately playing a containment style of football knowing that players will be dropping like fly's in the New Year?? Does he want to go to a 3 man mid with Biss but can't rely on him yet because he is learning what Conte wants (it took Eriksen 6 months to learn what Conte wanted of him when at Inter)???
But I am as convinced, as I can possibly be, that we are playing by design, it's totally deliberate as we have repeatedly demonstrated different phases of play.
I think XG is a sound metric for tracking performance over a period of time but I think some of what we see for the XG/A is a touch misleading. To me we don't allow many big chances against us, we do allow many low % chances against and I think it's these that are added up. The Chav draw is a classic example of this, they had all the ball and bettered the XG charts, but watching that game it was increasingly clear to me that they weren't creating much at all. I feel like this in almost every game I watch. I don't ever think we are on the ropes, I don't think we are in trouble, I'm not shitting myself (not the case vs Man U, we were played off the park).
I'm getting annoyed watching it because I like my teams to have the ball (aesthetics) and the other reason is that I'm having to listen to a commentary that is saying "we can't get out", "we are on the ropes". This was being said vs Marseille too, I think they had no more than 2 big chances all game (Sess was weak at the back post and Kolasinac's header that I think Lloris had covered were it on target). I don't think we're in trouble. Yes, there's always a risk of a worldie from outside the box or a deflected goal from a shot outside the box or a mistake - I'm guessing here but my gut tells me that the goals we concede fall predominantly into this category(???). We are playing the percentage and are 4th in the table (should be higher re Newcastle and LFC performances), topped our CL group as a direct result of doing this.
I was expecting a linea improvement on last season, we absolutely haven't had this which is where my main disappointment is felt. I don't have an answer as to why this is the case, other than it's a fucked season and we've deliberately chosen to manage our output(???), it's a marathon, not a sprint. I don't think this translates into the players are taking their foot off the gas, I think we've sent them out with a game plan that manages this and I would guess that the physical work they are doing day-to-day has them ticking over. The PR surrounding Conte's beasting during the preseason was just that, PR. Designed to have the players buy into the hype that they are super fit because they are puking up, have in the back of the oppo's mind that Spurs are superhuman fit and would run you off the park (if a boxer goes into the ring thinking he's in the shape of his life following his training camp, whilst his opponent has the slightest doubt he's not trained as hard, is the tiny psychological marginal gains coaches work so hard for). (BTW, Conte has us x10 fitter it's just they aren't let off the leash).
Or...........I'm just making excuses in the absence of accepted reasoning.
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Also a very good post Guido. This is a proper respectful argument that raises some very good points on both sides.
Whilst I agree with much of what BC posted, I think your argument has merit too.
Where I think the middle ground is, is that the players are being sent out with a specific game plan, as you suggest, but they're not executing it exactly as Conte wants them to. As BC stated, Conte himself, the other coach (can't remember his name), and even the players themselves have said they're not executing the plan properly and are being too passive.
This is what the WC and the condensed season is contributing to, IMO. The players may just have been told to contain and absorb in the first half, and counter when the opportunity is there, but they're in a more passive mindset than Conte wants. They're conceding ground deliberately, but on the back foot, rather than being front foot aggressive as they concede the ground. I'm not sure if I'm making myself clear here, but hopefully you get what I mean.