Tottenham Hotspur vs Manchester United (AWAY)

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WILL WE WIN?

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I seem to recall a similar incident a few years back, maybe it was us vs everton. Everton were definitely involved as I was in lower Bullens Rd stand I think (unless my mind is messing with me). Keeper came out and forward just got a shot off before they both collided but it went just over the bar. They both ended up rolling around for a bit but the keeper got let off because the keeper is entitled to go for the ball and the player had no advantage if he had stayed on his feet. Or something. It was contentious anyway.

To be honest I wasn't sure from seeing it as it happened as to whether or not hugo got a touch to it - it all happened quite fast and Ashley Young is a flopping bastard at the best of times, so benefit of doubt rested with Lloris. I didn't have a HD view of it all though, nor have I seen a decent replay.

Either way, the amount of games over the years where we've lost and penalties that we should have been given against Utd that would have changed the game/result weren't... I don't call it an injustice to Utd, maybe they should use this as perspective...
 
Millbanks said:
What's the difference? Lloris fouled him (didn't touch the ball), regardless of what Young did or didn't do with the ball.

Momentum or not, Lloris took the player without taking the ball. He chose to run at Young, got there after him, and therefore didn't win the ball. That's what a foul is!

It was definitely a goal scoring situation, otherwise Lloris wouldn't have come steaming off his line to intercept the ball.

I don't even know what you mean by "entitled to not go for the ball". Please explain.

They definitely did NOT have an advantage. He crossed it and they lost possession. That is not advantage. And whether he played the ball or not is irrelevant. Most penalties I see are where the player just beats the GK to the ball, often running away from goal & kicking it out of play but anticipating the contact.

If that happened against us, I would be absolutely fuming with that decision. In my eyes it was clear as day. He took Young out, at height, touched none of the ball. It's got penalty written all over it for me.
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You get sent off if you are the last man denying a clear goal scoring opportunity, I dont see them in that position as qualifying.

So it then becomes Yellow + Penalty or nothing, and obviously was too close to call for the Ref
 
Millbanks said:
I've read 75% of this thread but can't see this questioned anywhere -

How did Lloris not get sent off for that 'challenge' on Ashley Young? My feelings on that diving cunt aside, I felt that was one of the most blatant penalty decisions this season, possibly a red card, and he got away with it scot free.

I can only assume I missed something, but there is not way he got the ball, surely...!
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Sent off?!? For what exactly? Young had already played the ball so it wasn't denying a goal scoring opportunity, it was hardly reckless as every keeper does it. A penalty would have been harsh considering incidents like it happen on occasion without ever resulting in one. It's just they're not usually blown out of proportion by a failing manager who is grasping at straws.
 
I think the reason it wasn't given was because Young wasn't impeded in doing what he was trying to do. He wanted to cross the ball and he did, before any contact.

How often do you see a striker get a shot away under challenge, usually one which the defender (in trying to block the shot) brings down the attacker, but as long as the shot is made before contact nothing is given?

Whether that's right or wrong by the rules is another matter, but I think that's why nothing was given.
 
I was simply looking at the incident objectively, taking away any feelings towards Man Utd and any previous decisions that have gone their way. I am delighted it wasn't given! But my point is, it was a clear as day to me, and I was just waiting for the whistle to blow. Surprised Webb missed it - he's a top ref.


Lister said:
You get sent off if you are the last man denying a clear goal scoring opportunity, I dont see them in that position as qualifying.

So it then becomes Yellow + Penalty or nothing, and obviously was too close to call for the Ref
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I can't see how it isn't a clear goal scoring opportunity. The goal is open, or in a couple of seconds maybe one defender is on the line. But with Lloris committed, it's practically an open goal, albeit from an angle.

But, regardless of which colour card, it was a stonewall pen for me. As I said, I'd be fuming if that hadn't been given FOR us.
 
Sorry if anyone's seen this, but thought it was interesting. This was Madrid watching the game the other day. Wonder what was going to Rat Face's mind.

BdAYc0SIMAEARYs.jpg
 
Millbanks said:
I was simply looking at the incident objectively, taking away any feelings towards Man Utd and any previous decisions that have gone their way. I am delighted it wasn't given! But my point is, it was a clear as day to me, and I was just waiting for the whistle to blow. Surprised Webb missed it - he's a top ref.
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Yeah, he is a top ref and he made a series of good, tough calls during the game. He got the dives correct and was very fair and consistent. The thing about it for me was that he had to make a split second decision. He was running perpendicular to the goal and got his shot/cross off before there was contact. If he were running the same exact pattern and Hugo nailed him before the ball left his foot, it's a penalty, but that didn't happen. Contact after the shot happens all of the time and if it's going to be called every time a player is tackled after letting go a shot or a pass, the amount of penalty kicks will triple.

Webb obviously saw the contact but if it he is at all on the fence about calling a penalty or not, the correct decision is to not give the penalty. They should only be awarded when it is a clear cut case.
 
And just to rub it in a bit



Manchester United winger Ashley Young out with shoulder injury
Manchester United winger Ashley Young is set for a spell on the sidelines after sustaining a shoulder injury in his challenge with Tottenham goalkeeper Hugo Lloris.
Boss David Moyes was angry that United were not given a penalty for the tackle on Young in his side's 2-1 defeat.
He is unsure how long the 28-year-old England player will be out of action.
"It's a shoulder injury he received in the challenge [by Lloris]. I'm not sure how long it'll be," Moyes said.
After the game Moyes, furious with the decision not to award a penalty, said: "It's an incredible decision, in fact probably one of the worst I think I saw.
"The goalkeeper comes out, Ashley Young gets the ball before him and he follows through.
"If you follow through on a player anywhere else on the pitch with your foot high, it would be a red card."
Moyes was unable to offer an update on the fitness of striker Robin van Persie, who has missed the last six matches with a thigh injury.
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Lister said:
And just to rub it in a bit
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I saw that!

Though I do agree with Moyes on this occasion "If you follow through on a player anywhere else on the pitch with your foot high, it would be a red card."

That's what I saw. The argument that Young got his cross away is wrong. Lloris went for the ball, missed it, and took Young out late, and high!

I'm not disappointed it wasn't given! Just surprised more wasn't made of it. It looked reckless to me.

On the topic of Lloris, he's done that a few times lately (in the home tie against Utd even when a pen was given). He needs to make sure he gets there first. Unfortunately for him, if he gets it wrong, it costs us dearly.
 
I think the fact Young is a renowned diver played its part as well.

Remember when Bale was branded a diver? People were taking him out left right and centre and he was the one getting carded...
 
Lloris definitely wasn't a red card, it wasn't a clear goalscoring opportunity, as was demonstrated by Daws well-timed clearance (I hope all the Dawson haters and snipers noticed his performance at OT BTW, showing once again why he's been our best CB this season and is a clear first choice CB).

Many people seem to get confused with keepers and fouls. Just because a keeper comits a foul they seem to think it's a red. It's not, it's to do with the same conditions- goal scoring opportunity/violent conduct etc.

If a keeper handles outside the box, many assume it's a red for example, it's not. But if by handling he etc, etc

Whether it was a pen is a close call, but a red it wasn't.

It wasn't sufficiently violent for a red card either. Keepers are allowed to challenge in ways outfield players aren't, this may not be in the laws but has been de facto accepted for the 50+ years I've been watching football. Many a keeper comes out studs up, and is not penalised as would be the case for an outfield player. They dive at people's feet etc,

Also Lloris pulls out of the challenge and doesn't take out Young in a violent manner, it's a collision. Note incidentally that when Lukaku 'pulled out' of the challenge with Lloris v Everton he still kicked our keeper, giving him concussion and us problems that are still ongoing I think. Did he get a red? No.
 
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Millbanks said:
I saw that!

Though I do agree with Moyes on this occasion "If you follow through on a player anywhere else on the pitch with your foot high, it would be a red card."

That's what I saw. The argument that Young got his cross away is wrong. Lloris went for the ball, missed it, and took Young out late, and high!

I'm not disappointed it wasn't given! Just surprised more wasn't made of it. It looked reckless to me.

On the topic of Lloris, he's done that a few times lately (in the home tie against Utd even when a pen was given). He needs to make sure he gets there first. Unfortunately for him, if he gets it wrong, it costs us dearly.
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It's different when it's a keeper isn't it though? Say a keeper comes out to make a save, the shot goes past him and he collides with the striker. It's pretty much never given as a pen if the ball doesn't go in.
 
Raitei said:
It's different when it's a keeper isn't it though? Say a keeper comes out to make a save, the shot goes past him and he collides with the striker. It's pretty much never given as a pen if the ball doesn't go in.
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Exactly, Moyes isn't comparing apples with apples, as I've pointed out at quite some length on this thread what is tolerated with a keeper's challenges isn't with outfield players.

Moyes knows this of course, but has to get his moan in, which is fair enough. As I say, had it happened to us I'd want a penalty, though not expect a red card, always handy though when it's the oppo copping it :)
 
Raitei said:
It's different when it's a keeper isn't it though? Say a keeper comes out to make a save, the shot goes past him and he collides with the striker. It's pretty much never given as a pen if the ball doesn't go in.
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I think that's exactly it. Both of the guys on NBC after the game were talking about how it wasn't a penalty. One guy was talking about how all the time you see players shoot then get taken out with a challenge by either a defender or the goalie, and how that is never given as a penalty. Young got his shot away, then Hugo got him. Webb probably treated that as any other challenge that happens after a shot when your momentum is carrying you toward the shooter.

I also find it hilarious that young has injured his shoulder. It seemed perfectly fine after the challenge when he was waving his arms and asking for a penalty.
 
Raitei said:
It's different when it's a keeper isn't it though? Say a keeper comes out to make a save, the shot goes past him and he collides with the striker. It's pretty much never given as a pen if the ball doesn't go in.
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But Young didn't have a shot. He crossed it and there was no 'advantage' as such.

I see that happen all the time. Player gets to ball first, takes a touch away from the keeper (and often away from the goal, or even out of play), keeper makes contact with the player (who anticipates the contact) - penalty. This happens COUNTLESS times a season. In fact, just look at our home game against Man Utd! Lloris was late on Welbeck - penalty. Did Welbeck
 
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