West Ham v Tottenham Hotspur | Premier League | Tues 2nd April | 8:15pm

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Richard Arlison said:
Mate.

It’s completely unrealistic. You are expecting every win to be easy and under total control with us playing our best football every time for 90min.

Sheffield uTD you say it’s a game we could have lost but we didn’t. We dominated the game and won. That’s just one example.

We haven’t won a single game we didn’t deserve to win this year. We have lost 2 that we deserved to win, maybe more.
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No, that's not what I'm saying.
I'm saying passing around pointlessly is fucking boring.
And it seems to get easier to defend against most weeks for the opp
 
scarletjim said:
I don't know if we've slightly changed the 'plan', or got nervous because of a difficult period recently, or what the cause is, but the difference to early season for me is quite simply this:

We need to be deeper when in initial possession, and then 'spring' more quickly once we've beaten the press.

I have no issue with the high line when we're defending, or when we're actively attacking (i.e. near their goal), particularly as VdV seems to have the pace to get us out of pretty much any scrapes arising from balls over the top. However when we take possession, then gradually move up the pitch with lots of balls sideways and backwards (and Romero often loitering on it for 10 seconds whilst the opposition gets their shape reset), it gets much more difficult to find a killer ball. Our current wingers are not going to go 1 on 1 with the full-back and put lots of crosses in, and the middle is always going to be congested because of our inverted FBs, therefore surely the best way is to invite them to press us very deep, then break quickly. I definitely don't mean coutner-attacking football, we're not good enough defensively for that, we need to still have most of the possession, we just need to start things much deeper and then do them quickly. I don't have the stats, but it feels that many of our best goals have been scored that way this season (perhaps they are just the most memorable ones?)

Specifically what do we need to change to achieve that? Well, for me it's simply a). get deeper when we first get the ball, and invite them on to us. If Romero wants to hold on to it for 10 seconds on the edge of our box whilst awaiting the press (and maybe playing a long ball if someone makes a great run), then that's fine. Then when we beat the press, move it quickly through midfield using the space that has become available (and isn't available when we build up more slowly).

Obviously Ange knows a million times more than I do about football tactics etc, but am I missing something obvious above? If not, why have we stopped doing that?
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I agree with most of this but people were talking about us having more urgency in our forward play a few weeks back yet that let to more turnovers and conceding more chances and such it wasn't sustainable and now since Ange has tweaked it and playing with more control (which I believe started in the Palace match) people are now saying that we don't take enough risks and our general play is too slow - we really can't have it both ways.

Romero taking time on the ball to pick out a pass is by design because he's baiting the press to draw out the opposition and if he gives the ball away it will lead to a 2v2 turnover which is what we don't want in that position.

At the end of the day the squad still has flaws with the type of football we want to play you said yourself that our wingers not taking on their men is a massive flaw in itself, we're just gonna have to accept that we've probably reached the limit of how Ange wants his football to played with this current squad until the end of the season and we will obviously have to improve the personnel in the Summer to push on
 
Herclueless said:
The promising things from earlier in the season haven't become more prominent, they have all but disappeared. It's bizarre because you can't point to anything that's a catalyst for it, it's like everyone's mojo has just disappeared into thin air.
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Maybe we've eased off because of all the red cards/suspensions etc... that we picked up during the first period of the season.
 
These matchday threads are becoming ludicrous. I've lurked here for years and only recently started commenting.

Until now I've never put anyone on ignore because I've always been of the view that we are all fans and just because my view may differ from someone else's, it doesn't mean they are wrong and I'm right.

I've never engaged in online debate with anyone with an opposing view because it's a waste of energy. Nobody will ever change their mind as a result if such interaction.

These match day threads have become long, boring diatribes of 'I'm right, you're wrong' post after post after interminable post.

I think I might follow the example of Bill Madrid and just go back to lurking.
 
Matt1882 said:
It's not about winning 3 or 4 nil.

But we only scored 2 goals to turn a loss into a win against Sheff United deep, deep into injury time.
We only turned a rather boring draw against Liverpool into a win deep, deep into injury time with an own goal.
Brentford have barely been good with Toney. They're barely above relegation fodder this season and we barely scraped a draw. We drew 2-2 with them boxing day 2022 coming back from 2 down and fans were melting.
We needed a ref and VAR to turn a blind eye to a Romero hand ball at 0-0 vs United.
Miles better than Liverpool? Yet didn't lay a fucking glove on them. Against 9 men. We barely troubled the keeper.
We had 11 men in the first half against Luton and didn't actually score. In fairness, had Richie not been having a nightmare we might have.
We did not have a comfortable win Vs Palace. We we started shit, went 2 up, then conceded and fucking well clung on at the end.
Fulham - I don't know why but I struggle to remember than one. Think it's because I watched on TV rather than being there.

You're deluded if you think those games were as great as you think they were. Teams were trying to work us out and most now have. 10 men in the box quickly, keep themselves narrow and watch us dither around the middle and out wide.
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Nah,not once did I say we were brilliant in those early games and think we were goi g to win the league but I don’t go to games thinking if we don’t win 4-0 and create 20 chances do I think we are squeezing wins! The game doesn’t work that way. You find ways to win and we did in many of the ones you’ve mentioned. You can’t go to games and expect the opposition to lie down to us. No cunt lies down to anyone.
 
Shadydan said:
I agree with most of this but people were talking about us having more urgency in our forward play a few weeks back yet that let to more turnovers and conceding more chances and such it wasn't sustainable and now since Ange has tweaked it and playing with more control (which I believe started in the Palace match) people are now saying that we don't take enough risks and our general play is too slow - we really can't have it both ways.
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Yeah I guess it's always going to be a balancing act, and I appreciate that the deeper we sit when trying to bait the press, the more direct scoring chances we're going to concede. Personally I'd prefer the higher risk / higher reward style, but appreciate others (and more importantly Ange after some sub-optimal results) might feel differently.

Shadydan said:
Romero taking time on the ball to pick out a pass is by design because he's baiting the press to draw out the opposition and if he gives the ball away it will lead to a 2v2 turnover which is what we don't want in that position.
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Indeed, but it's of little use when he's basically on the half-way line, so when the opposition press him they aren't leaving that much space behind them because there's not much space there. If he does that 15 yards deeper, whole different ball game, would open up all sorts of space.

Shadydan said:
At the end of the day the squad still has flaws with the type of football we want to play you said yourself that our wingers not taking on their men is a massive flaw in itself, we're just gonna have to accept that we've probably reached the limit of how Ange wants his football to played with this current squad until the end of the season and we will obviously have to improve the personnel in the Summer to push on
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Yes absolutely - and I'm not entirely sure yet what that 'type of football' is anyway. A few months ago we were starting deeper, attacking more quickly - it was more exciting and felt more 'us', but it did mean more turnovers and chances conceded. The last few weeks has started to look a bit worryingly like some of the Poch period, dominating the ball, but moving it slowly and with little purpose from one side of the final third to the other, without any real cutting edge. Personally I hope that the only reasons we've gone that way are a). shortage of appropriate personnel, b). injuries and suspensions hindering our getting fully used to that way of playing, and c). a short-term attempt to tighten up in turns of turnovers etc. We shouldn't overlook the probability that Ange is still trying things out, still working out what is the best way to play given what we have available, it's still his first season after all.

Personally I hope that any summer recruitment (which I doubt will be significant anyway*) and time together will see us go back to the quicker style, as it suits us so much more (not to mention being far nicer to watch).

* RE: recruitment, maybe I'm biased, when I look at us man for man against woolwich, I honestly believe we have a better starting 11 and a better squad, and most of them are absolutely suited to the style I've described above. Yet woolwhich are regularly destroying teams and we're not - why is that? (Genuine question - I can't put my finger on what the difference is).
 
scarletjim said:
Yeah I guess it's always going to be a balancing act, and I appreciate that the deeper we sit when trying to bait the press, the more direct scoring chances we're going to concede. Personally I'd prefer the higher risk / higher reward style, but appreciate others (and more importantly Ange after some sub-optimal results) might feel differently.


Indeed, but it's of little use when he's basically on the half-way line, so when the opposition press him they aren't leaving that much space behind them because there's not much space there. If he does that 15 yards deeper, whole different ball game, would open up all sorts of space.


Yes absolutely - and I'm not entirely sure yet what that 'type of football' is anyway. A few months ago we were starting deeper, attacking more quickly - it was more exciting and felt more 'us', but it did mean more turnovers and chances conceded. The last few weeks has started to look a bit worryingly like some of the Poch period, dominating the ball, but moving it slowly and with little purpose from one side of the final third to the other, without any real cutting edge. Personally I hope that the only reasons we've gone that way are a). shortage of appropriate personnel, b). injuries and suspensions hindering our getting fully used to that way of playing, and c). a short-term attempt to tighten up in turns of turnovers etc. We shouldn't overlook the probability that Ange is still trying things out, still working out what is the best way to play given what we have available, it's still his first season after all.

Personally I hope that any summer recruitment (which I doubt will be significant anyway*) and time together will see us go back to the quicker style, as it suits us so much more (not to mention being far nicer to watch).

* RE: recruitment, maybe I'm biased, when I look at us man for man against woolwich, I honestly believe we have a better starting 11 and a better squad, and most of them are absolutely suited to the style I've described above. Yet woolwhich are regularly destroying teams and we're not - why is that? (Genuine question - I can't put my finger on what the difference is).
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Arteta = almost 5 years
Ange - 8 months
 
Shadydan said:
Arteta = almost 5 years
Ange - 8 months
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Indeed - let's hope it is exactly that and we will improve every year - imagine what we could be in even just a year or two, never mind longer term! Our squads is so much better than it was 2 years ago, lots to be excited about despite the 'micro-disappointments' every couple of weeks recently. :)
 
Herclueless said:
This is the perverse part for me.

So early on there were some really promising phases and moments, personally it had me really excited for what would come, thinking that we would see more and more of those moments as we progressed.

Then Chelsea happened, and the injuries and suspensions hampered us severely as far as results went for a little while, but honestly, I still thought performances were good, especially with all of the mitigating factors.

So then even that period had me really excited for what we'd see once the injuries and suspensions were out of the way.

And then what came has so far been a damp squib. The promising things from earlier in the season haven't become more prominent, they have all but disappeared. It's bizarre because you can't point to anything that's a catalyst for it, it's like everyone's mojo has just disappeared into thin air.

We can't just bemoan every side that turns up and has the temerity to defend solidly against us and act as though the problem is them and not us.
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Yes you can see the catalyst. First few games we were an unknown factor. As the season has progressed, we've seen more and more teams adopting a 'sit back and counter' approach when playing us. As a result, we've had to adapt by constantly pressuring what are organised deep block teams, wearing them down, then putting them to the sword late. We've done that to the vast majority.

It's ironic that you're claiming that others are 'bemoaning' this, when the only moaning is coming from the likes of you that we're not finishing these teams off at a canter.
 
Matt1882 said:
It's fine if all you care about is the result. But a very high proportion of fans on this forum whined for years about being bored.

They also whined it wasn't sustainable to win the way we were winning. I'd argue that those concerns are just as relevant now.
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Well it's only you bleating on about the Football being boring.

When it's just you complaining about this, maybe it's your expectations that are the concern.

Personally, I've found that most of our games are intriguing, enjoyable and, for decent periods, quite exciting, considering we have a new team (in the main), with a new manager, playing a new style. All of the above in less than a season that has been disjointed to say the least.
 
Matt1882 said:
If I didn't argue with her I'd be on suicide watch.
She'd have me dressed up like a fucking boyband member, giving up my season ticket to go fucking shopping and spend the weekend at her parents etc etc etc.
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You should do it (without giving up the ST of course).

It might give you some perspective on what boring actually is...
 
Herclueless said:
It's the "we go again 💪" mentality that's plagued the club for years...

It should mean we're pissed off but we're determined to put it right next time round, but always gave off the impression that we just shrugged our shoulders and thought oh well, there's always next time.

Harry practically said as much the moment he joined Bayern.

Really, if the players genuinely have the desire to achieve what they say they want to achieve, they need to be fuming after performances like last night and Fulham and not let it happen again.

What do I expect from the Forest game though? Only question mark I have is what minute do Forest take the lead?

:nunothumb:
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Exactly it will be the exact same. We may score early but the odds on that happening at home are low. How many games is it we scored at home in the first half now? The players and manager come out with usual BS about the crowd and stadium, atmosphere, previous shite performances and what happens exactly same again. Where is their pride and motivation to do well for the fans. How about a dominating home performance where we at it from the get go! Even with a bunch new players and manager whose whole ethos is to keep attacking we play the same low intensity passing game. I only see actually run to press players. Some of the home performances this season have been shocking.
 
Shadydan said:
Something dawned on me last night, if the vast majority of you accepted that we have to go through a painful rebuild and acknowledge that we're in transition season they why do you have a meltdown when there's bumps in the road?
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I don’t get this painful rebuild and transition season. There are 38 games in a season. What makes people think that game 39 ie first game next season it will be all different. Why is there a time frame on this anyway. We have eu games no cup games. There’s been so many breaks we have mini pre seasons. Enough time to work on shit.
 
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