-
The Fighting Cock is a forum for fans of Tottenham Hotspur Football Club. Here you can discuss Spurs latest matches, our squad, tactics and any transfer news surrounding the club. Registration gives you access to all our forums (including 'Off Topic' discussion) and removes most of the adverts (you can remove them all via an account upgrade). You're here now, you might as well...
Latest Spurs videos from Sky Sports
I'm more upset about his drink and goal-keeping.
It's easy to forget that against West Ham he was man of the match and won us 3 points. We are not yet at the stage where he is destroying our results, there is a lot of stuff that went wrong with our limp CL campaign, not just Hugo's two mistakes. His red card might have changed the momentum against PSV but it didn't lead to a goal. We should still have closed out the game with 10 men.
For now he needs to try and resist the urge to come off his line when there is danger. All keepers make occasional handling errors or let shots go through them but he's not making that type of Karius-type mistake. He's making tactical errors in either his passing (see WC final) or his sweeping. He needs to go back to basics for a while.
Right now I'd trust him to stay on the line and save the shot, over coming out too far and getting done again.
Teamwise, compare this to our game against Watford in that cup: advantage of numbers, but they managed a late equaliser. Also against Cardiff: we should have hammered them after the red card.
Overall there is too much complacency, it adds up and exposes key men at the wrong times.
To be fair, you're not wrong.
Lloris getting sent off made our task more difficult - but it didn't directly cost us the goal and make it 2-2 and as you say, he had kept 2 cleansheets in a row in the league (Helping us beat West Ham in the process with wonderful saves).
But I feel emotion does get the better of us after a disappointing result, especially in a game we really SHOULD have won.
The general lack of intensity in our performances is obvious and Poch is always talking about that. Almost every game he says afterwards how we weren't aggressive enough and didn't "kill" the opponent. I'm not really sure how we can fix that. The same pattern is happening every game.
Adapting to a style of play/tactic that doesn't require aggressive pressing would be one way to go.
But Poch seems a bit puritan in his approach to football, we know that he has one style of play that he wants to work against any opponent and he is almost always slow to adapt to it not working so him adopting a completely new tactic seems a long shot
Disagree.
The guy is experienced and captain of club and world cup winning nation.
His sending-off was crucial because it lost us a player and suggested anxiety.
It should be very much last chance saloon if not already a farewell.
Agree about the armband but if he’s available he plays
I really like him. One of my all time tottenham favourite players but he’s been on a bad run this year. Too kamikaze.
Second most mistakes that led to goal last season. Only Cech at Woolwich had more.
On his day a great goalie and he has multiple fantastic saves in him per season. But he plays a daredevil style and that will always lead to lots of misses as well as lots of great saves
Maybe we should have two keepers on the pitch. Hugo can do the shot stopping, and the other bod can do the running out of the area bits..Problem solved
Last edited:
We haven’t really played a pressing style of football since 16/17, Liverpool have also stopped playing that way. Of course we still dabble in it but it’s not the foundation of our game.
Our problem is that we relax in games long before the result is secure and when the opponent is still alive, it’s a mental issue. We saw it last season too in the games against Juve at Wembley and the semi against United. Dominate matches, fail to kill the game and then switch off and throw it away. Even in the NLD last season we were 1-0 up and in he last minutes gave two golden chances to Lacazette out of sheer laziness.
We should have learned by now how to manage a game properly but we haven’t. It’s not a tactical issue or the fault of an individual player. Maybe we are just reaching the limits of Poch’s skill as a manager. Maybe our players are simply too soft to stop doing it. It’s not easy to change the habits of a lifetime.
Thing is we haven't seemed to move on to another defined style of play. It seems a bit haphazzard now. If that is because of a lack of key players (Jan, Dele) or because Poch doesn't really know how to move on from the high press remains to be seen.
We have it in us to play some great passing football so a style that incorporates that would be nice and probably fairly easy to adopt.
the evolved CWB - centre way back - not allowed to leave the box, defends the far post on corners, keeps Hugo company against hoof ball teams.
I still struggling to understand any rationale for the scale and level of criticism aimed at Lloris. So let's just deal with the facts of the “errors” made by him:
Against Barca - The view is he shouldn’t have come out. My view is we should have a proper RB. Tripps is systematically and routinely raped, even the shit teams see it as a weakness, trust me this happens almost every single game he plays in, it is one of the biggest reasons we are conceding more shots on our goal that we have ever done since Poch joined us!!! Let that fucking sink in. So, what are we doing to about it? Well, Lloris is primed and ready to shut down the ball played behind Tripps. Watch this back again, Lloris was more than ready to cover the ball behind Trips against Barca, he committed to covering it off as soon as Messi played the ball. It’s high risk, but when you have an RB that is so shit in defence it’s a risk you have to take. (I will post some stats to support just how good Lloris is to support the risk over reward at coming off his line). It was an error but until we get a better right back or get Tripps to defend in that area of the pitch we are fucked, the ball behind Tripps is our weakest area on the pitch.
Against PSV - Their attacker was clean through, the ball played to him put him through between the pair of our CB’s, or in other words defensive suicide (Sanchez was never getting back to him, Toby was closest, still marginally behind him but the same player had already raped Toby earlier in the game for their first goal a move that started further out and from a harder position). I promise all of you this, had Hugo not come out to close down an attacker with a free shot on goal you would all be moaning at that too. Lloris does what you want from your player to prevent a goal being scored, he actually is successful at achieving this!!! His aggression at coming out to meet the attacker actually succeeds putting him off as he makes a heavy touch, oh yeah he doesn't score a goal and they don't score from the resulting free kick (great save from Vorm). This is the risk vs reward think back to our match against City at the Etihad a couple of years back, we drew 2-2 having been completely outplayed, but it was Walker that blatantly fouled Sterling in the box to cause him to miss from a couple of yards out, the ref didn’t spot it and we equalised a couple of mins later. Walker should have been sent off and they should have been awared the pen and they should have therefore been out of sight.
For me, he was doing what he always does, he makes his decision immediately, he commits to this decision. I think it’s the right decision, to have not come out would have presented an unopposed shot on our goal, a huge chance for them to score. They didn’t score from that opportunity, they scored as a result of this diabolical defending from the 2nd phase of a corner. In that 2nd phase, there are 4 maybe 5 Spurs players marking no except themselves!!
Now onto the stats - (point to note that these don't include this year's games, so add one more to the error leading to a goal column (last nights sending off did NOT contribute to a goal).
Let's start with the contentious stuff first, the stuff that everyone says he's shit at, the stuff that leads to the errors, the stuff people are saying he should stop doing and go back to basics.....Coming off his line. RISK vs REWARD - He is one of the best ‘keepers in the World at sweeping, in fact he and Ederson are on a league of their own in that department and no other keeper comes close to the pair of them. What many are calling him out for is his decision making when coming off his line. It is high risk, it's high risk to play a high-line, you are susceptible to a ball played into space behind your back-line and between your 'keeper. But we do it because we are fucking good at it, it's our shape as it allows us to dominate the oppo in their half of the pitch. We do it because we concede few goals to it because we have a 'keeper who sweeps up dealing with it. There will be times when the oppo will exploit it. Against PSV we dealt with it, they didn't score as a result.
By playing a high-line also means we need to 'keeper that can play with his feet, Lloris is also one of the best in the league at this too, he is critical to how we play, our style and our shape. He has the 2nd highest pass completion rate!!
So, I urge you to get a grip, open both eyes onto the big picture on just how important he is to our style of play and just how fucking good he actually is at it, including the errors made that have led to goals being scored. Do not lose sight of that last bit, look at Edison's errors made too that have led to goals scored, both are high but in the scheme of things, the big picture he is one of the main reasons we win football matches, even if he's not called into action to make any saves!!
Saves you say? Don't mind if I do.........
(To quantify the shot-stopping ability of goalkeepers this graph takes into account the quality of the shots they faced (xG per shot on target) and the save percentage. It is normal to expect keepers who face easier shots on average to save them at a higher rate, using xG tells a better picture than just how many saves a keeper makes.
The black lines represent the league average. The red ones are the top six average. Those of you that understand xG will notice that Lloris, Ederson & Courtois faced relatively easy shots, while Dubravka, Mignolet Gomes and Karnezis had to save clear chances at a much higher rate. This just emphasises yet further the importance of playing a high-line, it minimizes the clear or 'big' chances the oppo has (we have let this slip this season though, see my earlier comments on our RB). Also worthy of note is that whilst de Gea is still a god of a shot-stopper his numbers this season are way, way down on last years, also might be the reason why they are where they are now (e.g. They are playing the same as last year but de Gea isn't saving at the same rate, was always likely to happen as his numbers last year hadn't been seen before, a bit of a Leicester in the GK world).
Sorry for the long post but I think it's important. He is important, no, he is vital to us, not just in stopping shots but how we set up and try to play. Where you think he's shit and a liability he's actually one of the best in the world at it, including the errors that have lead to goals. Think big picture, be prepared for another error leading to a goal, risk vs reward, but don't lose sight of the big picture. He's one of the best 'keepers in World football including the errors.
Against Barca - The view is he shouldn’t have come out. My view is we should have a proper RB. Tripps is systematically and routinely raped, even the shit teams see it as a weakness, trust me this happens almost every single game he plays in, it is one of the biggest reasons we are conceding more shots on our goal that we have ever done since Poch joined us!!! Let that fucking sink in. So, what are we doing to about it? Well, Lloris is primed and ready to shut down the ball played behind Tripps. Watch this back again, Lloris was more than ready to cover the ball behind Trips against Barca, he committed to covering it off as soon as Messi played the ball. It’s high risk, but when you have an RB that is so shit in defence it’s a risk you have to take. (I will post some stats to support just how good Lloris is to support the risk over reward at coming off his line). It was an error but until we get a better right back or get Tripps to defend in that area of the pitch we are fucked, the ball behind Tripps is our weakest area on the pitch.
Against PSV - Their attacker was clean through, the ball played to him put him through between the pair of our CB’s, or in other words defensive suicide (Sanchez was never getting back to him, Toby was closest, still marginally behind him but the same player had already raped Toby earlier in the game for their first goal a move that started further out and from a harder position). I promise all of you this, had Hugo not come out to close down an attacker with a free shot on goal you would all be moaning at that too. Lloris does what you want from your player to prevent a goal being scored, he actually is successful at achieving this!!! His aggression at coming out to meet the attacker actually succeeds putting him off as he makes a heavy touch, oh yeah he doesn't score a goal and they don't score from the resulting free kick (great save from Vorm). This is the risk vs reward think back to our match against City at the Etihad a couple of years back, we drew 2-2 having been completely outplayed, but it was Walker that blatantly fouled Sterling in the box to cause him to miss from a couple of yards out, the ref didn’t spot it and we equalised a couple of mins later. Walker should have been sent off and they should have been awared the pen and they should have therefore been out of sight.
For me, he was doing what he always does, he makes his decision immediately, he commits to this decision. I think it’s the right decision, to have not come out would have presented an unopposed shot on our goal, a huge chance for them to score. They didn’t score from that opportunity, they scored as a result of this diabolical defending from the 2nd phase of a corner. In that 2nd phase, there are 4 maybe 5 Spurs players marking no except themselves!!
Now onto the stats - (point to note that these don't include this year's games, so add one more to the error leading to a goal column (last nights sending off did NOT contribute to a goal).
Let's start with the contentious stuff first, the stuff that everyone says he's shit at, the stuff that leads to the errors, the stuff people are saying he should stop doing and go back to basics.....Coming off his line. RISK vs REWARD - He is one of the best ‘keepers in the World at sweeping, in fact he and Ederson are on a league of their own in that department and no other keeper comes close to the pair of them. What many are calling him out for is his decision making when coming off his line. It is high risk, it's high risk to play a high-line, you are susceptible to a ball played into space behind your back-line and between your 'keeper. But we do it because we are fucking good at it, it's our shape as it allows us to dominate the oppo in their half of the pitch. We do it because we concede few goals to it because we have a 'keeper who sweeps up dealing with it. There will be times when the oppo will exploit it. Against PSV we dealt with it, they didn't score as a result.
By playing a high-line also means we need to 'keeper that can play with his feet, Lloris is also one of the best in the league at this too, he is critical to how we play, our style and our shape. He has the 2nd highest pass completion rate!!
So, I urge you to get a grip, open both eyes onto the big picture on just how important he is to our style of play and just how fucking good he actually is at it, including the errors made that have led to goals being scored. Do not lose sight of that last bit, look at Edison's errors made too that have led to goals scored, both are high but in the scheme of things, the big picture he is one of the main reasons we win football matches, even if he's not called into action to make any saves!!
Saves you say? Don't mind if I do.........
(To quantify the shot-stopping ability of goalkeepers this graph takes into account the quality of the shots they faced (xG per shot on target) and the save percentage. It is normal to expect keepers who face easier shots on average to save them at a higher rate, using xG tells a better picture than just how many saves a keeper makes.
The black lines represent the league average. The red ones are the top six average. Those of you that understand xG will notice that Lloris, Ederson & Courtois faced relatively easy shots, while Dubravka, Mignolet Gomes and Karnezis had to save clear chances at a much higher rate. This just emphasises yet further the importance of playing a high-line, it minimizes the clear or 'big' chances the oppo has (we have let this slip this season though, see my earlier comments on our RB). Also worthy of note is that whilst de Gea is still a god of a shot-stopper his numbers this season are way, way down on last years, also might be the reason why they are where they are now (e.g. They are playing the same as last year but de Gea isn't saving at the same rate, was always likely to happen as his numbers last year hadn't been seen before, a bit of a Leicester in the GK world).
Sorry for the long post but I think it's important. He is important, no, he is vital to us, not just in stopping shots but how we set up and try to play. Where you think he's shit and a liability he's actually one of the best in the world at it, including the errors that have lead to goals. Think big picture, be prepared for another error leading to a goal, risk vs reward, but don't lose sight of the big picture. He's one of the best 'keepers in World football including the errors.
Last edited:
He’s proper spursy
Bullshit...utter bullshit. Fuck off Mr negative. Overreaction much!!!