Levy / ENIC

[NorseYid]

Another angle:

No more a member, just a recipient of the THFC newsletter: Woolwich tickets have gone on general sale.

How's that.

 

[Deuterz]

I don't need to visit a Juventus forum to know that they likely have just as many knuckle-draggers as ours.

There's a narrative (that may have some validity) that Paratici has been riding Marotta's coat-tails.

But he was Marotta's right-hand man at Sampdoria (in charge of player profiling/scouting), Marotta then brought Paratici with to Juventus while fighting off Torino and Sampdoria trying to pry Paratici away (to be their Sporting Director General).

He's had his share of high wage, but free-transfer type signings (Ramsey, Buffon, Rabiot -- TBF, Rabiot walks into our center midfield), but what interests me (and, likely, Levy) more are his other type of player profiling/signings: Romero, Weston McKennie (my fav current Yank international), Kulusevski, Locatelli...) young, top-level talent, signed under complex loan-to-buy agreements that rollover into multiple seasons across multiple balance sheets.

This (combined with a strong, clearly defined data science team) is the only way to compete against the endless pockets of the sheikhs and kleptocrats.

Paratici was rated highly in terms of player scouting, but his tenure as DoF is mixed, and that's if you're being kind.

And I'd expect him to sign players who would walk in to our terrible midfield when he was DoF at by far the biggest Italian club, and one of the biggest in the world. A club who could attract Cristiano Ronaldo for god sake. Rabiot is still not good enough for where they want to be, and hugely overpaid for the level of ability he has.

Kulusevski has been terrible for them. They hugely overpaid for him. McKennie hasn't been very good either, and being the best American international isn't exactly a huge flex. So if these are the names you're throwing to back him up? Worrying.

Data science team, yes. But signing average midfielders on huge wages and a luxury signing in Ronaldo (again, on ridiculous money) isn't how you compete with the top clubs. Juventus have 4-5 shite midfielders on mega contracts because of Paratici. No wonder their fans hate him.

If we're looking at a model/club we wish to emulate, it should be post-takeover Liverpool. If we wish to be less ambitious then it should be Leicester. The way Paratici operated at Juventus is the last thing we want to copy.

 

[KaneDomBadBoy]

Paratici was rated highly in terms of player scouting, but his tenure as DoF is mixed, and that's if you're being kind.

And I'd expect him to sign players who would walk in to our terrible midfield when he was DoF at by far the biggest Italian club, and one of the biggest in the world. A club who could attract Cristiano Ronaldo for god sake. Rabiot is still not good enough for where they want to be, and hugely overpaid for the level of ability he has.

Kulusevski has been terrible for them. They hugely overpaid for him. McKennie hasn't been very good either, and being the best American international isn't exactly a huge flex. So if these are the names you're throwing to back him up? Worrying.

Data science team, yes. But signing average midfielders on huge wages and a luxury signing in Ronaldo (again, on ridiculous money) isn't how you compete with the top clubs. Juventus have 4-5 shite midfielders on mega contracts because of Paratici. No wonder their fans hate him.

If we're looking at a model/club we wish to emulate, it should be post-takeover Liverpool. If we wish to be less ambitious then it should be Leicester. The way Paratici operated at Juventus is the last thing we want to copy.

Would Kane be a luxury signing for City like (by your words) Ronaldo was for Juve?

 

[Deuterz]

Would Kane be a luxury signing for City like (by your words) Ronaldo was for Juve?

Kane again, jesus christ.

But no. He's home grown, only 28, and would be on probably about a quarter of Ronaldo's wages. They badly require a CF and they don't have issues throughout the team developing like Juventus did when signing Ronaldo.

City can afford an icing on the cake signing right about now. Juventus before Ronaldo arrived were declining steeply but decided to bring him in thinking he'd push them over the line in the CL. The reality was that they'd lost the top level midfield which got them close before, and their defence was creaking too.

But I wouldn't blame City for not going for Kane now, signing a player having a bad season is always a risk.

 

[Thepixie]

Levy doesn't care, tv money trumps match day revenue many times over. Just look at the women's game, i have nothing against it but tv wants it so the money is going up but the stadiums are still empty.

 

[skywalker68]

Airfixx

Where is he

 

[Château NoHo]

Paratici was rated highly in terms of player scouting, but his tenure as DoF is mixed, and that's if you're being kind.

And I'd expect him to sign players who would walk in to our terrible midfield when he was DoF at by far the biggest Italian club, and one of the biggest in the world. A club who could attract Cristiano Ronaldo for god sake. Rabiot is still not good enough for where they want to be, and hugely overpaid for the level of ability he has.

Kulusevski has been terrible for them. They hugely overpaid for him. McKennie hasn't been very good either, and being the best American international isn't exactly a huge flex. So if these are the names you're throwing to back him up? Worrying.

Data science team, yes. But signing average midfielders on huge wages and a luxury signing in Ronaldo (again, on ridiculous money) isn't how you compete with the top clubs. Juventus have 4-5 shite midfielders on mega contracts because of Paratici. No wonder their fans hate him.

If we're looking at a model/club we wish to emulate, it should be post-takeover Liverpool. If we wish to be less ambitious then it should be Leicester. The way Paratici operated at Juventus is the last thing we want to copy.

I disagree with your assessment that Juventus' young CM pool (Locatelli, McKennie, Bentancur, etc.) are "average". Kulusevski had a goal and an assist in Juve's 2-1 Coppa Italia final in May.

Ronaldo scored +80 Serie A goals, and +10 CL goals in 3 seasons for Juve. Led the team in scoring all 3 seasons.

It's probable that Liverpool's fortunes would be much different had any other ownership group (other than Fenway/John Henry) bought the club... their data science team would certainly look much different (assuming they'd even have one).

 

[Château NoHo]

They're bang average and a big part of why Juventus have dropped off. Aside from Locatelli, he's actually good. McKennie is okay but mostly running, Bentancur is meh and Rabiot is okay but hugely overpaid. Compare that to Pogba, Pirlo, Marchisio, Vidal etc and you can see why they fell off a cliff. Kulusevski has had moments, overwhelmingly been bad and there are many reports they already want to get rid.

Marotta and Paratici arrived at Juventus summer of 2010.

Marotta and Paratici absolutely rinsed ManUtd in the Pogba saga. Stole him away from Sir Alex and sold him back at a (then) record price.

Pirlo was 31 years-old when Juventus signed him on a free transfer in the summer of 2011. He'd already won 2 Serie A titles + 2 CL trophies with Milan and a WC with Italy.

Vidal was bought in 2011 for <€11 Million.

Marchisio is a Juventus academy product.

Ronaldo will score goals wherever he goes, that's not the issue. The issue was bringing him in for big money and a huge contract when it was clear the squad had other big issues. That was an icing on the cake signing right when Juventus needed to rebuild key areas of their team. Instead now they're coping with the financial issues of having lots of high wage average players, luckily they got rid of Ronaldo's wage.

You reckon the average United fan is still singing the same tune they were about Ronaldo after the first couple of matchweeks?

Juventus is coping (along with every other club on the planet) with the realities of a post-pandemic world... they are not alone in struggling to "balance the books"... a problem for all but the state/mafia-state owned clubs (Chavs, City, PSG).

 

[Herclueless]

This has been such a hot debate on forums like this for so long, I think it’s easy to miss the massive next step in this campaign which will quite radically change the situation: anti-Levy sentiment becoming widespread and front-of-mind among the rank and file offline fanbase.

Two years ago Levy was held in very high esteem by most of our supporters, and it was only a handful of ultra-engaged online weirdos who hated him. The tide is rapidly turning in that regard.

A couple years of finishing 9th and losing Kane will do more than John Thomas’ entire oeuvre.

Most likely because the stupid twat went and put himself centre stage on an ill timed docuseries right as the club fell off a cliff performance wise.

Up to that point I'd always known about his reputation and his frustrating transfer tactics, but not for one second did I have any inkling what a cringe inducing, weedy, slimey little shit weasel he was.

Difficult to take him seriously after seeing that, what has been seen cannot be unseen and now it's all the easier to full on hate the dickless fucking dweeb.

 

[Deuterz]

Marotta and Paratici arrived at Juventus summer of 2010.

Marotta and Paratici absolutely rinsed ManUtd in the Pogba saga. Stole him away from Sir Alex and sold him back at a (then) record price.

Pirlo was 31 years-old when Juventus signed him on a free transfer in the summer of 2011. He'd already won 2 Serie A titles + 2 CL trophies with Milan and a WC with Italy.

Vidal was bought in 2011 for <€11 Million.

Marchisio is a Juventus academy product.


You reckon the average United fan is still singing the same tune they were about Ronaldo after the first couple of matchweeks?

Juventus is coping (along with every other club on the planet) with the realities of a post-pandemic world... they are not alone in struggling to "balance the books"... a problem for all but the state/mafia-state owned clubs (Chavs, City, PSG).

This doesn't change the fact their current midfield is mediocre. It gets passed around and made to look sluggish so often in Serie A, now under multiple managers. And it's an extremely high paid group of options to be so mediocre.

Bottom line is they were king of Serie A, the Bayern of that league, and mis-management from the top down has seen them now barely clinging on to 4th last season on the final day. Don't look much better this campaign either.

Under Paratici they had far, far more money and wages to invest than any other Italian club. They spent 180 on Higuain and Ronaldo. 100 on Kulusevski, Danilo and Bernadeschi. Hundreds of thousands a week on Rabiot, Ramsey and others.

It obviously wasn't a total failure. But it was far, far from an unprecedented success, and by the time Paratici exited, most of the fanbase had turned on him. So I have serious doubts about his ability to operate outside of Italy for a club far less powerful than Juventus, if he struggled in a much simpler environment.

But hey ho, we will have to be optimistic and hope he's the fix to our shitty transfer strategy. Too early to really fairly assess his summer buys.

 

[Zomb]

This doesn't change the fact their current midfield is mediocre. It gets passed around and made to look sluggish so often in Serie A, now under multiple managers. And it's an extremely high paid group of options to be so mediocre.

Bottom line is they were king of Serie A, the Bayern of that league, and mis-management from the top down has seen them now barely clinging on to 4th last season on the final day. Don't look much better this campaign either.

Under Paratici they had far, far more money and wages to invest than any other Italian club. They spent 180 on Higuain and Ronaldo. 100 on Kulusevski, Danilo and Bernadeschi. Hundreds of thousands a week on Rabiot, Ramsey and others.

It obviously wasn't a total failure. But it was far, far from an unprecedented success, and by the time Paratici exited, most of the fanbase had turned on him. So I have serious doubts about his ability to operate outside of Italy for a club far less powerful than Juventus, if he struggled in a much simpler environment.

But hey ho, we will have to be optimistic and hope he's the fix to our shitty transfer strategy. Too early to really fairly assess his summer buys.

Signing a few good players and a few bad players still trumps Levy buying fucking no-one. Someone to get deals done is a big step forward

 

[Château NoHo]

This doesn't change the fact their current midfield is mediocre. It gets passed around and made to look sluggish so often in Serie A, now under multiple managers. And it's an extremely high paid group of options to be so mediocre.

Bottom line is they were king of Serie A, the Bayern of that league, and mis-management from the top down has seen them now barely clinging on to 4th last season on the final day. Don't look much better this campaign either.

Under Paratici they had far, far more money and wages to invest than any other Italian club. They spent 180 on Higuain and Ronaldo. 100 on Kulusevski, Danilo and Bernadeschi. Hundreds of thousands a week on Rabiot, Ramsey and others.

It obviously wasn't a total failure. But it was far, far from an unprecedented success, and by the time Paratici exited, most of the fanbase had turned on him. So I have serious doubts about his ability to operate outside of Italy for a club far less powerful than Juventus, if he struggled in a much simpler environment.

But hey ho, we will have to be optimistic and hope he's the fix to our shitty transfer strategy. Too early to really fairly assess his summer buys.

Disagree their CM is mediocre. They'll finish around the top of Serie A again.

Juventus had a 10-year run as the Serie A big dog. Milan and Inter have both had their cycles. No other German club has been able to seriously challenge Bayern. They've won 15 out of 20 the Bundesliga seasons since 2000.

Referencing Pogba, who Juventus (under Marotta + Paratici pried away from ManUtd on a free transfer), won 4 Serie A titles with, then sold back to Utd for a then record-breaking transfer fee -

or... Pirlo (who came to Juventus a year after Marotta + Paratici arrived, as a 31-year-old on a free transfer), whilst simultaneously complaining about Paratici's record of signing older, more expensive players -

or... Vidal (signed during Paratici's tenure for <€11 Million), whilst complaining about the strategy of making 4-5 signings totaling £80 Million instead of 2 signings totaling £80 Million --

or --- a Juventus academy player Marchisio, in the context of a failing DOF is (I'll put this as nicely as possible) contradictory.

 

[Deuterz]

Disagree their CM is mediocre. They'll finish around the top of Serie A again.

Juventus had a 10-year run as the Serie A big dog. Milan and Inter have both had their cycles. No other German club has been able to seriously challenge Bayern. They've won 15 out of 20 the Bundesliga seasons since 2000.

Referencing Pogba, who Juventus (under Marotta + Paratici pried away from ManUtd on a free transfer), won 4 Serie A titles with, then sold back to Utd for a then record-breaking transfer fee -

or... Pirlo (who came to Juventus a year after Marotta + Paratici arrived, as a 31-year-old on a free transfer), whilst simultaneously complaining about Paratici's record of signing older, more expensive players -

or... Vidal (signed during Paratici's tenure for <€11 Million), whilst complaining about the strategy of making 4-5 signings totaling £80 Million instead of 2 signings totaling £80 Million --

or --- a Juventus academy player Marchisio, in the context of a failing DOF is (I'll put this as nicely as possible) contradictory.

No they won't, and you can disagree all you want .. their own fans who watch them week to week think it's average, but you know better? What about their collection of central midfielders ISN'T average? They had 32% of the ball when they played Napoli recently! Any kind of technically gifted midfielders managed by a team interested in possession plays it around them with no trouble! When was the last time you actually watched Juventus play football?

The issue is they failed to rebuild that midfield with any quality whatsoever. It's utterly mediocre now, and you can say it isn't all you want, but the facts are they scraped 4th last season and are 13 points off top now. In a weak league, we aren't talking the Premier League where you have City, Liverpool, United, Chelsea to deal with. The teams around them don't have huge resources, they're having to sell key players all the time.

And excusing Paratici's later work with 'football works in cycles' is pathetic. He had far more resources and a fantastic position to work with, bottom line is when he left the club were in decline and not renewing his contract. Financial issues+ squad in decline both in results and quality of football = hardly a great legacy to leave behind, is it? Man spent hundreds of millions and handed out mega contracts like toffee to end up with cloggers in midfield, Morata leading the line and guys like Bernadeschi/Kulusevski signed for big money. A joke!

 

[COckneY Spurs]

Police it? It’s a discussion on a forum.
Why do t you just stop supporting in silence and stop telling everyone that you’re going to?

The problem is that people haven’t thought it through. My first wish is that we improve and I couldn’t really care less who who it’s under.
If we improve under ENIC, I’ll still be able to celebrate without being a fairweather fuck.

I want them out, but they aren’t out.
If we win a cup, you’ve got nowhere to turn I’m afraid.

If we win a cup…

 

[Château NoHo]

No they won't, and you can disagree all you want .. their own fans who watch them week to week think it's average, but you know better? What about their collection of central midfielders ISN'T average? They had 32% of the ball when they played Napoli recently! Any kind of technically gifted midfielders managed by a team interested in possession plays it around them with no trouble! When was the last time you actually watched Juventus play football?

Do you speak for Juventus' fanbase officially, or...
Yeah, a tough loss in Allegri's 3rd match with Juventus, AWAY, after scoring early, and being either drawn or in the lead for 84 of those 90 minutes.

The issue is they failed to rebuild that midfield with any quality whatsoever. It's utterly mediocre now, and you can say it isn't all you want, but the facts are they scraped 4th last season and are 13 points off top now. In a weak league, we aren't talking the Premier League where you have City, Liverpool, United, Chelsea to deal with. The teams around them don't have huge resources, they're having to sell key players all the time.

This was City's position at similar point last season (+1 GD).

Milan + Napoli are seriously over-performing xPTS thus far this season (if you give that sort of metric any weight -- I know you like to pick and choose when a particular statistic is or isn't applicable). I suspect, over the course of the season, that their xPTS will return more to the norm.

Serie A xG Table and Scorers for the 2021/2022 season | Understat.com

xG table of Serie A standings and top scorers for the 2021/2022 season, also tables from past seasons and other European football leagues.

understat.com

And excusing Paratici's later work with 'football works in cycles' is pathetic. He had far more resources and a fantastic position to work with, bottom line is when he left the club were in decline and not renewing his contract. Financial issues+ squad in decline both in results and quality of football = hardly a great legacy to leave behind, is it? Man spent hundreds of millions and handed out mega contracts like toffee to end up with cloggers in midfield, Morata leading the line and guys like Bernadeschi/Kulusevski signed for big money. A joke!

Serie A expenditures 2010/11 - 2021/22: Over this period, Juventus won Serie A 9 out of 11 times... a solid ROI.

Juventus is not the only European super-club facing "financial issues".

 

[Deuterz]

Château NoHo So much cope in this post I don't know where to start. Do I speak for their fanbase? No .. do you? Go visit their forums, buddy. See what they think of their midfielders you rate so much, I guarantee they don't rate them the way you do. Oh wait they're idiots right? Sorry, you're the genius football fan who counts total duds as success stories because they scored in a final once.

And so fucking what lmao? They're Juventus. 32% of the ball is unacceptable under any circumstances, stop excusing it. These bang average nobodies even lost to Empoli and couldn't beat Udinese. Imagine showing me a table with where City are when the points gap between them and first was less than half the gap Juventus have to make up. And their squad isn't even a quarter as talented as City's is, so good fucking luck with that.

xPTS don't always 'return to the norm' and even if they do they'll be above Juventus. As will Roma according to that graph. I've watched numerous Juve games this season, in all their games vs top 6 opposition they've scraped through or lost. Even Roma outplayed them the other week, fucking Roma! Led by Jose Mourinho! Out xG'ed them and only a dumb referee decision let Juve get a win. They're pathetic this season.

And my god the absolute grasping of straws when you send me that table. Not only does it have Juventus on top anyway, it's looking at transfer expenditure only. Their wage bill is significantly ahead of any team in the league, and as we know Paratici focused on a lot of free signings. So the transfer spend may not be well ahead of others, but the wage bill is. Huge advantage.

Juventus will get top 4 but be nowhere near the title this season. Quote me on it, same as last year. Way too big a gap already for a squad with their ability, as they already demonstrated in a full season last year. If you think those clogger midfielders you actually rate highly are going on some huge winning run you're insane.

Seriously, your refusal to accept the reality at clubs is hilarious. Trying to deny the state both we and Juventus are in. Absolutely blind.

 

[Crispin]

I agree

 

[Château NoHo]

Château NoHo So much cope in this post I don't know where to start. Do I speak for their fanbase? No .. do you? Go visit their forums, buddy. See what they think of their midfielders you rate so much, I guarantee they don't rate them the way you do. Oh wait they're idiots right? Sorry, you're the genius football fan who counts total duds as success stories because they scored in a final once.

And so fucking what lmao? They're Juventus. 32% of the ball is unacceptable under any circumstances, stop excusing it. These bang average nobodies even lost to Empoli and couldn't beat Udinese. Imagine showing me a table with where City are when the points gap between them and first was less than half the gap Juventus have to make up. And their squad isn't even a quarter as talented as City's is, so good fucking luck with that.

Spurs had 35% possession over the 2 CL first round matches vs Real Madrid. (3-1 home win, 1-1 away draw)
Spurs had 37.5% possession over the 2 CL legs vs City (1-0 home win, 3-4 away loss).
Liverpool had 35% possession in their 2-0 CL final win vs us.

City won the league last season by 10 points over ManUtd.
+11 points over ManUtd during matchweeks 10-38.
+20 points over Liverpool during matchweeks 10-38.

xPTS don't always 'return to the norm' and even if they do they'll be above Juventus. As will Roma according to that graph. I've watched numerous Juve games this season, in all their games vs top 6 opposition they've scraped through or lost. Even Roma outplayed them the other week, fucking Roma! Led by Jose Mourinho! Out xG'ed them and only a dumb referee decision let Juve get a win. They're pathetic this season.

And my god the absolute grasping of straws when you send me that table. Not only does it have Juventus on top anyway, it's looking at transfer expenditure only. Their wage bill is significantly ahead of any team in the league, and as we know Paratici focused on a lot of free signings. So the transfer spend may not be well ahead of others, but the wage bill is. Huge advantage.

Juventus will get top 4 but be nowhere near the title this season. Quote me on it, same as last year. Way too big a gap already for a squad with their ability, as they already demonstrated in a full season last year. If you think those clogger midfielders you actually rate highly are going on some huge winning run you're insane.

Seriously, your refusal to accept the reality at clubs is hilarious. Trying to deny the state both we and Juventus are in. Absolutely blind.

We'll see...
Please note that Milan has played an extra match.

Juventus' wage bill advantage over the next Serie A club (2.25 to 1) is comparable to Bayern's (1.63 to 1) over their next closest competitor... I'd imagine Ronaldo's salary inflated Juventus' wage bill just a wee bit last season.

Juventus has won 9 out of the last 10 Serie A titles, equal to Bayern's last decade of dominance --- but when the "filter" is applied over to the last 2 decades, Bayern's unique domestic dominance really becomes apparent.

 

[Deuterz]

Spurs had 35% possession over the 2 CL first round matches vs Real Madrid. (3-1 home win, 1-1 away draw)
Spurs had 37.5% possession over the 2 CL legs vs City (1-0 home win, 3-4 away loss).
Liverpool had 35% possession in their 2-0 CL final win vs us.

City won the league last season by 10 points over ManUtd.
+11 points over ManUtd during matchweeks 10-38.
+20 points over Liverpool during matchweeks 10-38.

We'll see...
Please note that Milan has played an extra match.

Juventus' wage bill advantage over the next Serie A club (2.25 to 1) is comparable to Bayern's (1.63 to 1) over their next closest competitor... I'd imagine Ronaldo's salary inflated Juventus' wage bill just a wee bit last season.

Juventus has won 9 out of the last 10 Serie A titles, equal to Bayern's last decade of dominance --- but when the "filter" is applied over to the last 2 decades, Bayern's unique domestic dominance really becomes apparent.

Napoli also exceeded Juventus by xG, had more shots on target, 3x as many shots total .. they won every metric by a significant margin, whilst having control over the game. Yeah you can have less possession and be successful, but not the way they played this game. Their lack of the ball isn't a tactic, it's because the midfielders they have currently (aside from Locatelli) aren't capable of dominating the ball. Napoli's Fabian Ruiz is a cut above any of them, even Locatelli.

We will see. I'd bet my life Juventus won't win Serie A. Any comparison to City is laughable when City have players on their bench who would be Juve's best players. Talking one of the top 3 sides in Europe vs a side who barely could even achieve top 4 in a weak Serie A. City had a weak start to the season, Juventus had an entirely terrible season and have started this one in the same vein. They will likely make top 4 as I see Atalanta struggling and Roma will suffer the Jose collapse, but nothing more.

Anyway enough about Juve, my view is Paratici had mixed results there, and the job at Spurs is far more challenging, so that leaves me concerned. There are reasons to be hopeful and the Romero deal is a shining light. But several of his other deals have big question marks over them, and his role in appointing Nuno the biggest question mark of all. He obviously deserves time to show what he can do, but equal reasons to be concerned as there are to be hopeful, to me at least.

 

[sammyspurs]

Hang on. Your saying those of us slating Levy and refusing to put money in their pockets will have no right to celebrate if we win the cup......
But you spend your entire life butchering Harry Kane but still celebrating when he scores a goal!

I butcher Kane when he’s shit and praise him when he’s good like any other player

I’m not going to sit there in silence if he scores anymore than those who “quit”
will if we beat Utd