Harry Kane

[todd1882]

Years ago counts because it shows that he can do it.

Again, years ago, so could Greaves. Years ago a lot of people could do a lot of things but he hasn't pressed in years even when the rest were pressing. And he looks like an old man running now. He's not pressing for anyone, anywhere for 90 minutes.

since we haven't seen him fail at it I am not sure why we should discount it.

Nonsense reasoning. We haven't seen me jump the grand canyon but I'm fairly certain we should discount the possibility. What most players can do at 28 is different than what they can do at 21. For most it is not as drastic as the athletic falloff we've seen with Kane. Hell, Benz still runs like a teenager at almost 34. Did you know he was older than Kane? Came as news to me considering how majestically he gets around the pitch compared to our Harry.

What? He could be successful. He would be successful. Seems like an odd semantics thing to latch on to.

Could is some possiblity whereas would is a more-likely-than-not possibility. It was walkback language to soften the assertion on your part...it slightly and almost imperceptibly moves the goalposts and changes the argument. just making note of it.

There is not whataboutery

It is the definition of whataboutery. Moura is not germane to the conversation about Kane's merits.

Mobile? That is not how I would describe Vlahovic.

Really? I was told that he was more targetman but I've seen some clips that suggest he is, in fact, NOT a big lump. And considering that he IS germane to the Kane convo I will say that he is a shitton more mobile than our English Oak. And would probably be more likely to carry out tactical demands being a young player, moving up a league, and playing for Conte...or just not being a want-away player like our English Oak.

The conversion rate means nothing so get whatever useless data you want.

sure it does. It means that 96% of the time that our efforts end at Harry Kane's feet this season they are wasted. Oops, I almost forgot. Make the 97% of the time. In case you didn't know that is not very good.

I got a bet. I'm betting that Neal Maupay has a better conversion rate than Harry. And if he does you have to go out and treat yourself to some apple pie in my honor. If Kane's is higher then I promise to make my next purchase of syrup of the imported variety. Deal?

I don't think Benzema understands shit about football or non-football things so his opinion means nothing.

I could say I don't think Van Gogh understood shit about the composition of paint but would that matter when considering his artistic renderings? So yeah, what I saying is...I'm comparing Benz to Van Gogh biatch!!!! Suck it, Iggy!

 

[todd1882]

My fear is that we get Conte willing to treat this as a project which means we get Conte without a lot of what makes him successful. That seems to be the most likely way for this to work out for us.

Yeah, good point. I also wonder exactly how long his personality stays fresh with a team. Perhaps he knows this and that's why he moves it alond pretty quickly.

My concern is that Levy says I will back you to Conte and without detailing exactly what that means both think they agree to something with completely different meanings.

My point exactly.

My concern is that Levy says I will back you to Conte and without detailing exactly what that means both think they agree to something with completely different meanings.

For example, I think that Levy feels he backed both Jose and Poch.

If Levy says you can have 30m to buy a CB, but that CB can't be 30 year old De Vrij is that still backing him? He gave him the money he wanted so I could see again Levy feeling by giving him the 30m he wanted that he has backed him.

Reasonable and would come from a business mind and not a football mind. It is this type of thing I feel has been going on for quite some time. Levy sees players are their nominal position and not as a set of qualities. Like Conte could cry out for a MFer but DL would think getting either Kroos or Modric would have the same effect. Anyone familiar with football would understand that these two players have two completely differents skillsets and strengths though both are MFers.

It is possible that Conte doesn't want Kane but there is so far zero reason to think that and a bunch of reasons to think otherwise.

IDK. We'll see how it plays out but I think more insight will be available then. I can see it from a tactical perspective and I can also see Five's point as a possiblity. We'll find out who's right in a bit.

 

[Igula]

Again, years ago, so could Greaves. Years ago a lot of people could do a lot of things but he hasn't pressed in years even when the rest were pressing. And he looks like an old man running now. He's not pressing for anyone, anywhere for 90 minutes.

Sure but we have zero reason to think he couldn't now. The fact Greaves is dead is a pretty good reason to think he couldn't do much. So until I have a valid reason to think that a world class player couldn't do something I see no reason to just assume he can't.

Nonsense reasoning. We haven't seen me jump the grand canyon but I'm fairly certain we should discount the possibility. What most players can do at 28 is different than what they can do at 21. For most it is not as drastic as the athletic falloff we've seen with Kane. Hell, Benz still runs like a teenager at almost 34. Did you know he was older than Kane? Came as news to me considering how majestically he gets around the pitch compared to our Harry.

Again the nonsense reasoning is coming from you. We haven't seen you come close to jumping anywhere near the Grand Canyon, we have seen Kane press and work in a pressing system and we have seen nothing to suggest that he can't do it now.

Yes I knew Benzema was older than Kane, and nothing he does is impressive or really relevant to this conversation. Doesn't surprise me at all to watch dogshit Benzema to know that he is older than Kane.

Could is some possiblity whereas would is a more-likely-than-not possibility. It was walkback language to soften the assertion on your part...it slightly and almost imperceptibly moves the goalposts and changes the argument. just making note of it.

Ok if it makes you feel better change my could to a would then. He would be successful in that system.
There as no walkback at all. But keep trying to spin it that way to suit your narrative.

No goalposts moved just a use of words that I didn't think someone would be so pedantic to cry about, but as I said would is fine by me if it makes you happy.

It is the definition of whataboutery. Moura is not germane to the conversation about Kane's merits.

It is not whataboutery. Moura is germane when many Spurs "supporters" have advocated getting rid of Kane but keeping a crap player like Moura because he can press. That is the kind of stupid move any have suggested so why I brought it up.

If you want to use a different player go right ahead as I have said repeeatedly I always like to hear actually solutions when people talk about us moving Kane and somehow magically getting better. usually it is the every vague and ever hopeful better player that seems to exist on every street corner in many people's minds.

Really? I was told that he was more targetman but I've seen some clips that suggest he is, in fact, NOT a big lump. And considering that he IS germane to the Kane convo I will say that he is a shitton more mobile than our English Oak. And would probably be more likely to carry out tactical demands being a young player, moving up a league, and playing for Conte...or just not being a want-away player like our English Oak.

I don't think he is an immobile oaf but I don't think his mobility is any different from Kane either.

sure it does. It means that 96% of the time that our efforts end at Harry Kane's feet this season they are wasted. Oops, I almost forgot. Make the 97% of the time. In case you didn't know that is not very good.

No it doesn't mean that at all, in fact what it means is that you struggle to understand the meaning of wasted.

I got a bet. I'm betting that Neal Maupay has a better conversion rate than Harry. And if he does you have to go out and treat yourself to some apple pie in my honor. If Kane's is higher then I promise to make my next purchase of syrup of the imported variety. Deal?

I don't give a shit about conversion rate so why would I make any bet about it? It is a meaningless stat that tells us nothing about the player, game or what happened at all.

I could say I don't think Van Gogh understood shit about the composition of paint but would that matter when considering his artistic renderings? So yeah, what I saying is...I'm comparing Benz to Van Gogh biatch!!!! Suck it, Iggy!

LOL

 

[todd1882]

I think that replacing Kane with many other players would result in the same total. It isn't like we have a team of guys outscoring him on this team. If that were the case I would be much more worried.

Again, you would be suggesting that other players would have higher than a 3% conversion rate. Still waiting to see if Neal Maupay's rate is higher. And I know how much you love him.

 

[Igula]

IDK. We'll see how it plays out but I think more insight will be available then. I can see it from a tactical perspective and I can also see Five's point as a possiblity. We'll find out who's right in a bit.

I just can't see any reason Conte would want Kane out. He fits in how he wants to play, is a world class talent and we are team that is unwilling to spend to properly replace him. Conte doesn't seem like a guy that wants to move out talent, have a worse team and have massive holes in his starting 11.

If Kane has said he wants out that is different but if that were the case I think we would be hearing a different narrative from Conte than what we have so far.

But I agree we will find out in the coming months as Conte is not keeping him around if he doesn't want him here.

 

[Igula]

Again, you would be suggesting that other players would have higher than a 3% conversion rate. Still waiting to see if Neal Maupay's rate is higher. And I know how much you love him.

I wouldn't suggest that at all because conversion rate means nothing so I would not quote it.

Kane has missed zero sitter, zero chances he should have scored. So why would I expect lesser talents to score on those same non-chances?

I hate Maupay because he misses goals you or I could score.

 

[KaneDomBadBoy]

I wouldn't suggest that at all because conversion rate means nothing so I would not quote it.

"Disregard any statistic that makes Kane look bad..."

 

[todd1882]

Sure but we have zero reason to think he couldn't now. The fact Greaves is dead is a pretty good reason to think he couldn't do much. So until I have a valid reason to think that a world class player couldn't do something I see no reason to just assume he can't.

Sure we do. A) he hasn't B) he's 6 or so years older having many miles on the clock and injuries C) he's slow as molasses. And he looks gassed very early now.

Again the nonsense reasoning is coming from you. We haven't seen you come close to jumping anywhere near the Grand Canyon, we have seen Kane press and work in a pressing system and we have seen nothing to suggest that he can't do it now.

Again, we (some, probably Bazali ) saw Greaves knock them in but doesn't mean he can do it now. Many can't do that which they did 6 years ago. Age gets us all.

So in your mind do you think the Harry we are seeing now is the Harry of 2016-17? That's about the last time he and we pressed successfully. After that it started to become longer ball and crossy-crossy. Many years ago my man.

Yes I knew Benzema was older than Kane, and nothing he does is impressive or really relevant to this conversation. Doesn't surprise me at all to watch dogshit Benzema to know that he is older than Kane.

Ok, cause he's got all them goals and moves across the pitch so well is why I was surpised. Yo wouldn't guess he was almost 6 years older, you know? 'Cause 6 years is a lot. In 6 years a player can go from potential world class all action forward to a big English lump clogging anything you want to do. Just sayin. But you're giving me hope that in 6 more years Kane will be moving even better than Benz is now which is heartening.

It is not whataboutery. Moura is germane when many Spurs "supporters" have advocated getting rid of Kane but keeping a crap player like Moura because he can press. That is the kind of stupid move any have suggested so why I brought it up.

It is whataboutery. "Many Spurs "supporters"" may have said these things but I haven't in this conversation so in regards to this one it is whataboutery. I'll not answer for the god that is Lucas Moura. he doesn't need me to defend his unimpeachable record. Where would be be without him? But he is whataboutery.

No it doesn't mean that at all, in fact what it means is that you struggle to understand the meaning of wasted.

What I mean by wasted is scoring below your xG. That means you are holding back the team. they are providing the tapins that you made you name on but now you are squandering them at a rate higher than Neal Maupay...get yourself some apple pie!

I don't give a shit about conversion rate so why would I make any bet about it? It is a meaningless stat that tells us nothing about the player, game or what happened at all.

Just a gentleman's bet. Have you peeked at maupay's conversion rate? I honestly don't know it but I assume it's down there near Harry's. That's a hell of a statement right there.

 

[todd1882]

If Kane has said he wants out that is different but if that were the case I think we would be hearing a different narrative from Conte than what we have so far.

Why? He still has to utilize the player while he is still here. Don't see any upside is saying anything negative about Kane if I were Conte.

Kane has missed zero sitter, zero chances he should have scored. So why would I expect lesser talents to score on those same non-chances?

Patently false. He is below his xG so he is indeed missing chances he should have scored.

I hate Maupay because he misses goals you or I could score.

And that's why it is important to compare and see if he's missing more than Kane...who's missing alot...in fact 97% of the chances he takes.

 

[KaneDomBadBoy]

And that's why it is important to compare and see if he's missing more than Kane...who's missing alot...in fact 97% of the chances he takes.

Kane
Goal Conversion Rate: 3%
Goals above/under xG: -2.5

Maupay
Goal Conversion Rate: 22%
Goals above/under xG: +0.5

Igula 's response:
"All stats don't matter this season for Kane..."

 

[BringBack_leGin]

I think the level of Kane’s criticism is a reflection of his season to be honest.

Last seasons critique isn’t on the same level as this season, but the observations are still relevant.
Golden Boot doesn’t tell the whole story.

Salah scored one less, yet scored against Utd when they were 2nd, not 16th, and against City home and away plus Real.

Kane being seen as superior to Salah because he filled his boots against Maccabi Haifa, LASK and Brighton is nonsense to be honest.

There is a genuine perspective to be addressed, and not one single person would have a problem addressing it if Kane had scored some of of his 23 goals against the top 4, but lost out on the Golden Boot to Vardy who has scored all his against the bottom 12

Look at Sons goals to Kane’s and then tell me about intelligent movement and creating space etc

Fair, but equally I don’t think Kane’s achievements deserve to be underplayed just because there are those who don’t see the chinks in his armour. Goals are goals and Kane has an incredible record by any measure.

 

[Igula]

Sure we do. A) he hasn't B) he's 6 or so years older having many miles on the clock and injuries C) he's slow as molasses. And he looks gassed very early now.

A. He has B. him being 6 years older doesn't mean he can't C. He is not and does not looked gassed very early either.

Again, we (some, probably Bazali ) saw Greaves knock them in but doesn't mean he can do it now. Many can't do that which they did 6 years ago. Age gets us all.

Again Greaves being dead is different than Kane being 28. He isn't nearly as old, slow or tired as you are trying to make it out to be. Many can't do what they did 6 years ago, many can. There is no reason to think that Kane is someone who can't.

So in your mind do you think the Harry we are seeing now is the Harry of 2016-17? That's about the last time he and we pressed successfully. After that it started to become longer ball and crossy-crossy. Many years ago my man.

No in my mind Harry Kane doesn't have to be the player he was in 2016-17 to be successful in a pressing system.

Ok, cause he's got all them goals and moves across the pitch so well is why I was surpised. Yo wouldn't guess he was almost 6 years older, you know? 'Cause 6 years is a lot. In 6 years a player can go from potential world class all action forward to a big English lump clogging anything you want to do. Just sayin. But you're giving me hope that in 6 more years Kane will be moving even better than Benz is now which is heartening.

Sure Kane could be moving as well as Benzema but I don't think Benzema is moving in some great way or impressive at all so that isn't really saying much.

It is whataboutery. "Many Spurs "supporters"" may have said these things but I haven't in this conversation so in regards to this one it is whataboutery. I'll not answer for the god that is Lucas Moura. he doesn't need me to defend his unimpeachable record. Where would be be without him? But he is whataboutery.

No it is not.

What I mean by wasted is scoring below your xG. That means you are holding back the team. they are providing the tapins that you made you name on but now you are squandering them at a rate higher than Neal Maupay...get yourself some apple pie!

But if you watch the games then it is clear that he is not holding back the team. Surely that means more than some random stat. There has been zero tap-ins provided.

Just a gentleman's bet. Have you peeked at maupay's conversion rate? I honestly don't know it but I assume it's down there near Harry's. That's a hell of a statement right there.

I have never peaked at anyone's conversion rate because it means nothing.

 

[Igula]

Why? He still has to utilize the player while he is still here. Don't see any upside is saying anything negative about Kane if I were Conte.

He doesn't have to say anything negative about him, he just wouldn't be saying how important that he is. He is going out of his way to praise Kane, I don't think he does that if he doesn't want him here, that is not Conte's way. But maybe he has completely changed his approach since coming to us.

Patently false. He is below his xG so he is indeed missing chances he should have scored.

Having watched the actual games I will take that over xG everyday of the week. It is true from watching what actually happens on the field and not relying on stat sheets which do not support anything.

That is why, while xG can be helpful if combined with watching, on its own it, and many "stats" like it, are completely useless.

And that's why it is important to compare and see if he's missing more than Kane...who's missing alot...in fact 97% of the chances he takes.

Yes and I have watched both and seen that Maupay is missing a ton and Kane is missing none.

 

[todd1882]

Kane
Goal Conversion Rate: 3%
Goals above/under xG: -2.5

Maupay
Goal Conversion Rate: 22%
Goals above/under xG: +0.5

Igula 's response:
"All stats don't matter this season for Kane..."

So Neal Maupay, a player that my dear friend Igula despises because he's never met a sitter he couldn't miss converts at a rate 25 percentage points higher than our World Class (tm) striker. By any could I bother you to show how many respective chances each has had. I'd just like to calculate exactly how many more we'd theoretically have and how much closer to Top 4 we'd be with Monsieur Maupay leading the line.

 

[KaneDomBadBoy]

Fair, but equally I don’t think Kane’s achievements deserve to be underplayed just because there are those who don’t see the chinks in his armour. Goals are goals and Kane has an incredible record by any measure.

No, not really. Not if we're finishing 7th in the League.

Our tactics revolving around Kane is detrimental to our overall play. When we play Harry Kane ball, all it does is increase Kane's shot count and goal count but everyone else suffers as a result. We're shit when we play Harry Kane ball and our results/record shows that.

If Kane scores half the amount of goals, taking half the amount of shots, and we're winning, that's better than Kane taking a million shots and converting a small percentage of those.

 

[Igula]

So Neal Maupay, a player that my dear friend Igula despises because he's never met a sitter he couldn't miss converts at a rate 25 percentage points higher than our World Class (tm) striker. By any could I bother you to show how many respective chances each has had. I'd just like to calculate exactly how many more we'd theoretically have and how much closer to Top 4 we'd be with Monsieur Maupay leading the line.

I don't despise Maupay I just recognize him for what he is and point out his clear misses.

 

[KaneDomBadBoy]

So Neal Maupay, a player that my dear friend Igula despises because he's never met a sitter he couldn't miss converts at a rate 25 percentage points higher than our World Class (tm) striker. By any could I bother you to show how many respective chances each has had. I'd just like to calculate exactly how many more we'd theoretically have and how much closer to Top 4 we'd be with Monsieur Maupay leading the line.

Maupay
27 shots
6 goals
4 big chances missed

Kane
32 shots
1 goal
5 big chances missed

 

[todd1882]

A. He has B. him being 6 years older doesn't mean he can't C. He is not and does not looked gassed very early either.

I know you are but what am I is not a valid form of argumentation for adults. Stop doing it poopiepants!

No it is not.

See previous...

He isn't nearly as old, slow or tired as you are trying to make it out to be. Many can't do what they did 6 years ago, many can.

So you are starting to appreciate Benz then? Modric is moving around better at 36 as well. He's not a striker but it is 8 years.

There is no reason to think that Kane is someone who can't.

Other than he looks like he's got arthritis in every joint of his lower body. But you're right he doens't look labored at all.

No in my mind Harry Kane doesn't have to be the player he was in 2016-17 to be successful in a pressing system.

Ok, but he also can't be this version of whatever he is. 1 league goal.

But if you watch the games then it is clear that he is not holding back the team. Surely that means more than some random stat. There has been zero tap-ins provided.

sure there was. He just missed a 4 yarder in the last game FFS. Are you suggesting Kane is lethal but only inside 4 yds? World class indeed.


edit: I stated that this miss was from 4yds. Upon review it was not. The real distance was more like 14yds. Still was a bad miss.

 

[todd1882]

Maupay
27 shots
6 goals
4 big chances missed

Kane
32 shots
1 goal
5 big chances missed

So fewer shots and 6x more goals. That's some damning numbers for a world class player. Imagine Iggy is gonna have a hard time getting out of this one. He could always just say these stats mean nothing. That one always works.

 

[KaneDomBadBoy]

So fewer shots and 6x more goals. That's some damning numbers for a world class player. Imagine Iggy is gonna have a hard time getting out of this one. He could always just say these stats mean nothing. That one always works.

It'll be one of these excuses/comments

"...b...bu...but....we'd be fighting for relegation without Kane's goals and assists!"
"...b...bu...but....Nuno!"
"...b...bu....but... our midfield!"
"...b...bu....but... it's the team!"
"...b...bu...but...goal conversion rate and xG don't matter!"
"...b...bu...but....Son and Moura!"
"...b...bu...but....those 2 long passes against Leeds!"
"...b...bu...but....his hold up play against 1 million rated CBs against Vitesse!"
"...b...bu...but....Kane led us to the Champions League final!"

When all else fails:

"...b...bu...but....he just had a baby!!!!!!!!!!l!"

Courtesy of Deuterz