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Management Levy / ENIC

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Levy In or Levy Out

  • Total voters
    351

chat GTP​


Both the pro and anti arguments. Which kind of reflex the board.

Anti Levy

Make a case for Daniel Levy doing badly at Tottenham

There are several reasons why one might argue that Daniel Levy has not done a good job as chairman of Tottenham Hotspur Football Club:

  1. Lack of trophies: Despite making significant investments in players and coaches over the years, Tottenham has failed to win any major trophies under Levy's stewardship. The club has come close on a number of occasions, including reaching the final of the Champions League in 2019, but ultimately has not been able to deliver any silverware.
  2. Poor recruitment: While Tottenham has made some shrewd signings during Levy's tenure, the club has also made some questionable decisions in the transfer market. For example, the club spent a reported £30 million on Moussa Sissoko in 2016, who has since struggled to make a consistent impact on the team.
  3. Lack of stability: Tottenham has gone through a number of managerial changes under Levy, with some appointments lasting only a short time. This lack of stability can be destabilizing for the team and may have contributed to the club's inability to win trophies.
  4. Stadium delays: Tottenham's new stadium was originally supposed to be completed in 2018, but construction was delayed multiple times. The delays were costly for the club and may have impacted its ability to invest in the team.
  5. Fan dissatisfaction: There has been growing frustration among some Tottenham fans about the direction of the club under Levy's leadership. Some supporters have criticized the lack of investment in the team, while others have expressed frustration with the perceived lack of ambition.
Overall, while there have certainly been some positive developments during Levy's tenure as chairman of Tottenham, there are also valid criticisms that can be made about the club's lack of success in winning trophies, poor recruitment decisions, lack of managerial stability, stadium delays, and fan dissatisfaction.

Pro levy

Make a case for Daniel Levy doing a good job at Tottenham

There are several reasons why one might argue that Daniel Levy has done a good job as chairman of Tottenham Hotspur Football Club:
  1. Financial stability: Under Levy's leadership, Tottenham has become a financially stable and sustainable club. He has managed the club's finances carefully, ensuring that the club operates within its means and does not spend beyond its budget. This has enabled the club to invest in its infrastructure and facilities, such as the state-of-the-art Tottenham Hotspur Stadium.
  2. Improved infrastructure: Levy has overseen the development of a new training ground and stadium, which have significantly improved the club's infrastructure. The Tottenham Hotspur Stadium is one of the most advanced football stadiums in the world, with a capacity of 62,303 and a number of innovative features, including a retractable pitch.
  3. Consistent presence in European competitions: Under Levy's leadership, Tottenham has become a regular participant in European competitions, such as the Champions League and Europa League. The club has reached the knockout stages of the Champions League on several occasions and was a finalist in the competition in 2019.
  4. Shrewd transfer dealings: Levy has been credited with making some shrewd transfer deals during his time at the club, including the signings of players such as Harry Kane, Dele Alli, and Heung-min Son. These players have become key members of the team and have helped to establish Tottenham as a top-six Premier League club.
  5. Community engagement: Levy has been praised for his community engagement initiatives, including the establishment of the Tottenham Hotspur Foundation, which supports a wide range of community projects and initiatives.
Overall, while Tottenham has not won any major trophies under Levy's leadership, he has overseen a period of significant growth and development for the club. His focus on financial stability, infrastructure development, consistent participation in European competitions, shrewd transfer dealings, and community engagement initiatives make a compelling case for his success as chairman of Tottenham Hotspur Football Club.
 
LeParisien said:
First of all, you want me to be drawn on speculation without addressing the core argument I raised. Again, you won’t say whether you believe he is responsible for the football side or not. If he is then you HAVE to give him credit for all the good things. You can’t keep looking for alternate explanations for the good but stick him with the bad. That is not fair.

If you’re hopelessly biased then just say so and we’ll be done with it.

The one tangent I will allow is your comment about the PL changing everything. Your comparison with Everton is particularly good.

Trophies won by Everton pre PL - 14
Trophies won by Spurs pre PL - 15

We were the same size club. Except Everton had been clearly more successful in the decade before the PL. We had won an FA cup and a UEFA cup, they had won 2 league titles, an FA cup and the UEFA Cup Winners Cup.

The difference between our clubs now is a difference in leadership. Everton have been poorly run and we’ve been well run. The bulk of the difference between the clubs has opened up since ENIC were in charge. With poorer owners we are Everton.

But the key effect of the PL was to create more inequality - and inequality has the effect of concentrating power and money into the hands of a few. In the old first division there were 4 winners in the 6 years before the PL was created. In the PL it took 13 years for us to have a 4th winner.

The first 12 years was a duopoly of Man Utd and Woolwich exclusively with only Blackburn interrupting that in the third year of the PL. The PL became extremely uncompetitive. It was only Abramovic’s spending that changed that.

In the first 19 years of the PL there were just 4 winners: Man Utd, Woolwich and Chelsea won 18 of them.

So. Uncompetitive.

Who was the new team to break into that in the 20th edition?

Man City - again with obscene spendingz

Blackburn, Liverpool, and Leicester City have each won 1 premier league title. The other 27 leagues have been won by just 4 teams.

The best analogy, is that the PL is a balloon with lots of little dots on. Over time the balloon gets blown up and the dots become further and further away. Without the backing of a state it’s now basically impossible to break the hold of these big teams.

And yet we have managed to become competitive in that time WITHOUT the backing of a state. That is a remarkable achievement. I cannot understand why some Spurs fans are not immensely proud of that.


Still happy for you to let me know to what extent you think Levy is responsible for on-field matters. :)
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I thought I did
Yes he is ultimately responsible for everything as CEO . However do I believe his successful decisions were based on well thought out strategy , HELL NO . But fine he can have the credit for 3 good decisions , that he alone chose to reverse by firing all 3
 
Tomo said:

chat GTP​


Both the pro and anti arguments. Which kind of reflex the board.

Anti Levy

Make a case for Daniel Levy doing badly at Tottenham

There are several reasons why one might argue that Daniel Levy has not done a good job as chairman of Tottenham Hotspur Football Club:

  1. Lack of trophies: Despite making significant investments in players and coaches over the years, Tottenham has failed to win any major trophies under Levy's stewardship. The club has come close on a number of occasions, including reaching the final of the Champions League in 2019, but ultimately has not been able to deliver any silverware.
  2. Poor recruitment: While Tottenham has made some shrewd signings during Levy's tenure, the club has also made some questionable decisions in the transfer market. For example, the club spent a reported £30 million on Moussa Sissoko in 2016, who has since struggled to make a consistent impact on the team.
  3. Lack of stability: Tottenham has gone through a number of managerial changes under Levy, with some appointments lasting only a short time. This lack of stability can be destabilizing for the team and may have contributed to the club's inability to win trophies.
  4. Stadium delays: Tottenham's new stadium was originally supposed to be completed in 2018, but construction was delayed multiple times. The delays were costly for the club and may have impacted its ability to invest in the team.
  5. Fan dissatisfaction: There has been growing frustration among some Tottenham fans about the direction of the club under Levy's leadership. Some supporters have criticized the lack of investment in the team, while others have expressed frustration with the perceived lack of ambition.
Overall, while there have certainly been some positive developments during Levy's tenure as chairman of Tottenham, there are also valid criticisms that can be made about the club's lack of success in winning trophies, poor recruitment decisions, lack of managerial stability, stadium delays, and fan dissatisfaction.

Pro levy

Make a case for Daniel Levy doing a good job at Tottenham

There are several reasons why one might argue that Daniel Levy has done a good job as chairman of Tottenham Hotspur Football Club:
  1. Financial stability: Under Levy's leadership, Tottenham has become a financially stable and sustainable club. He has managed the club's finances carefully, ensuring that the club operates within its means and does not spend beyond its budget. This has enabled the club to invest in its infrastructure and facilities, such as the state-of-the-art Tottenham Hotspur Stadium.
  2. Improved infrastructure: Levy has overseen the development of a new training ground and stadium, which have significantly improved the club's infrastructure. The Tottenham Hotspur Stadium is one of the most advanced football stadiums in the world, with a capacity of 62,303 and a number of innovative features, including a retractable pitch.
  3. Consistent presence in European competitions: Under Levy's leadership, Tottenham has become a regular participant in European competitions, such as the Champions League and Europa League. The club has reached the knockout stages of the Champions League on several occasions and was a finalist in the competition in 2019.
  4. Shrewd transfer dealings: Levy has been credited with making some shrewd transfer deals during his time at the club, including the signings of players such as Harry Kane, Dele Alli, and Heung-min Son. These players have become key members of the team and have helped to establish Tottenham as a top-six Premier League club.
  5. Community engagement: Levy has been praised for his community engagement initiatives, including the establishment of the Tottenham Hotspur Foundation, which supports a wide range of community projects and initiatives.
Overall, while Tottenham has not won any major trophies under Levy's leadership, he has overseen a period of significant growth and development for the club. His focus on financial stability, infrastructure development, consistent participation in European competitions, shrewd transfer dealings, and community engagement initiatives make a compelling case for his success as chairman of Tottenham Hotspur Football Club.
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Overall summed up in great off the pitch, average on it.
 
Ed Vanderlay said:
I thought I did
Yes he is ultimately responsible for everything as CEO . However do I believe his successful decisions were based on well thought out strategy , HELL NO . But fine he can have the credit for 3 good decisions , that he alone chose to reverse by firing all 3
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Do you give any credit for us being spoken of in the same breath as the superclubs rather than Everton or Villa despite being in a new age of unheralded inequality?
 
Ed Vanderlay said:
All getting a bit toxic in here

FFS people , some are very pro Levy / ENIC , some absolutely despise him with real animosity . Most I think are in one camp or the other but not at the real extreme end , at least I like to think that is the case .
I personally would like to see him go , but not enough to be full of bile to a fellow Lillywhite . Equally those who disagree with me are actually quite pleasant towards me , in fact a couple are very pleasant indeed.

I would like to think if we met in a bar at the stadium we could all enjoy each others company . Let’s jettison the bile , cross all our fingers and toes that somehow , with or without ENIC and Levy things pick up.

Fine be pro or very pro ENIC , be equally committed on the other side if you wish. I am finding all the unpleasantness makes this place a less appealing forum to hang out in.


Castigate ENIC , or sing their praises , either perspective does not make you the bigger , better person . Place would be a real shit show without MRS P on here to admonish occasionally
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I do agree with your toxic comments. I might take a step back after today.
 
LeParisien said:
That is a fair comment (and I agree with pretty much all of it).

You are able to credit levy with things on the football side instead of resorting to the stupid Anti ENIC trope of « levy is good with business and money but done nothing on the football side ».

I respect your view!
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Don’t get me wrong, I’m not prepared to give them that much credit! It’s just I don’t really recognise the distinction between footballing activity and business activity. In reality, I’m not sure it exists.

I am of the same opinion as FightingIllini FightingIllini . I don’t want to speak on his behalf, but the entire ENIC project feels like it was the building and delivery of an incredible footballing asset, namely the stadium. That is where their expertise is and it’s certainly where their sense of risk and reward lies; in property development. I’d love to see them reap their reward and mooch off into the sunset with billions to their name.

I don’t think they have demonstrated anything like the same level of expertise in footballing activities. And whilst I recognise your efforts to lay out success metrics by increment, football is, and always will be, a zero sum game. I’m concerned to hear them talk about their virtuous circle of investment, because you don’t improve 5% by having 5% more revenue. You improve by having a clear five/ten year plan of the team you are building and the players that will get you there.

Never, for a single second, have I seen ENIC demonstrate that sort of methodical thinking. Levy lurches from one manager to the next, conflicting styles and values.

It’s a mess.
 
Our club is a fucking mess, fighting between fans, I have never known such a toxic atmosphere at this club as it is right now.

Ed Vanderlay said:
All getting a bit toxic in here

FFS people , some are very pro Levy / ENIC , some absolutely despise him with real animosity . Most I think are in one camp or the other but not at the real extreme end , at least I like to think that is the case .
I personally would like to see him go , but not enough to be full of bile to a fellow Lillywhite . Equally those who disagree with me are actually quite pleasant towards me , in fact a couple are very pleasant indeed.

I would like to think if we met in a bar at the stadium we could all enjoy each others company . Let’s jettison the bile , cross all our fingers and toes that somehow , with or without ENIC and Levy things pick up.

Fine be pro or very pro ENIC , be equally committed on the other side if you wish. I am finding all the unpleasantness makes this place a less appealing forum to hang out in.


Castigate ENIC , or sing their praises , either perspective does not make you the bigger , better person . Place would be a real shit show without MRS P on here to admonish occasionally
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I think there has to be a middle ground somewhere in this debate.

I myself have flip flopped on Levy many times because I always like to believe he could turn things around at this club based on the fact that not every single decision he has ever made has been poor on the footballing side of matters, also, his ability on the business end of things cannot be disputed imo.

However, I am firmly of the belief now that he should step back from footballing matters because I think since Poch it has been one bad decision after another and I think it's based on his ego personally at this point and that's what is upsetting me, it feels like his ego is coming before the club.

I think he is trying to fix his own mistakes and by doing so just keeps digging a bigger hole for the club and himself and the only fix to this problem is for him to completely step away from any footballing decisions, remove himself from the training ground or being anywhere near the team or signings.

Basically, no longer be the chairman is what I am trying to say, he should be in charge of infrastructure and business deals not related to football and allow someone with fresh ideas to come in and do something different on the football side of things, I think Levy has almost made himself this dark cloud hanging over the football decisions now and it's just making things worse.

The reasons for which have been outlined countless times.

However, I do believe there is a middle ground to be had here because I think even the "Levy in" people acknowledge that he has made very poor mistakes on the football side, the only difference being is that, I think they believe he can still turn it around based on previous success (Poch) I just personally don't see that being the case as I think we are entering uncharted territory with all the issues surrounding the club currently.

This is ignoring of course the huge trophy drought the club has faced since him being our chairman but again, some Spurs supporters don't seem to value success in trophies so it's difficult to argue that poin, maybe it's become so engrained that we are the "underdogs" in their minds that just qualifying for Europe is a success, again, it's because of Levy making the club so successful that the expectations have been (rightly) raised.

Either way you argue, pro or against, I think the middle ground should be that change needs to happen before things get worse; now what "change" that is will be debated but I think the questions need to be first asked about Levy, not managers or players but how LEVY is operating, as, at least from where I am sitting, he seems to be the common factor in recent failures.
 
LeParisien said:
Do you give any credit for us being spoken of in the same breath as the superclubs rather than Everton or Villa despite being in a new age of unheralded inequality?
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Don’t use the we could be worse off defence

By the way I have on many occasions mentioned on here what a very shrewd businessman Wes Edens is . I fully expect them to be a serious threat .You should be saying how have Villa come from nowhere under a recent new owner to be almost on a par with us , especially considering how far they were behind . It has not taken Edens 23 years to catch us up that’s for sure . Newcastle have gone past us and as yet have not leveraged the Saudi money
 
Cranston said:
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not prepared to give them that much credit! It’s just I don’t really recognise the distinction between footballing activity and business activity. In reality, I’m not sure it exists.

I am of the same opinion as FightingIllini FightingIllini . I don’t want to speak on his behalf, but the entire ENIC project feels like it was the building and delivery of an incredible footballing asset, namely the stadium. That is where their expertise is and it’s certainly where their sense of risk and reward lies; in property development. I’d love to see them reap their reward and mooch off into the sunset with billions to their name.

I don’t think they have demonstrated anything like the same level of expertise in footballing activities. And whilst I recognise your efforts to lay out success metrics by increment, football is, and always will be, a zero sum game. I’m concerned to hear them talk about their virtuous circle of investment, because you don’t improve 5% by having 5% more revenue. You improve by having a clear five/ten year plan of the team you are building and the players that will get you there.

Never, for a single second, have I seen ENIC demonstrate that sort of methodical thinking. Levy lurches from one manager to the next, conflicting styles and values.

It’s a mess.
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We see things differently but both you and FightingIllini FightingIllini have considered, evidence-based views. I respect your stance and agree with a lot of what you say.

Compare the way you two engage with someone like John Thomas John Thomas and there are levels.

The context is that ENIC took over at a time when there was a decade long duopoly in English football - Man Utd and Woolwich were by far the biggest clubs. Since then Chelsea and Man City have permanently changed the English football landscape being backed by the wealth of a nation. Newcastle now are the same.

Only two clubs have managed to meaningfully enter the conversation in a sustained way. Liverpool - arguably the biggest club in England - and us.

The fact is that we are no longer in an era where a good, honest club can compete over time because the league is a kind of monopoly. That Levy and ENIC have got us so close is genuinely something incredible and whilst I expect opposition fans to underrate that, I don’t expect spurs fans to do the same.

Were a bright kid from a local school trying to compete in a world of aristocrats and nouveau riche. I’m proud of who we are.
 
And the views of yet another Levy appointment....





"What are you chasing, titles or economic success"

"Are you trying to win money over titles"

"I should have resigned sooner when I saw what was happening "
 
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Ed Vanderlay said:
Don’t use the we could be worse off defence

By the way I have on many occasions mentioned on here what a very shrewd businessman Wes Edens is . I fully expect them to be a serious threat .You should be saying how have Villa come from nowhere under a recent new owner to be almost on a par with us , especially considering how far they were behind . It has not taken Edens 23 years to catch us up that’s for sure . Newcastle have gone past us and as yet have not leveraged the Saudi money
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Villa and Newcastle have not overtaken us. One season (in fact less than a season) particularly such a chaotic one, does not change 20 years of performance. That’s bed wetting.

There are other well run clubs too though and I take nothing away from them.

It wasn’t, by the way, a « we could be worse off » defence. It was asking you to recognise that the delta in PERFORMANCE between us and Everton over 20 years is proportional to the delta in LEADERSHIP. This is a tough league and so you have to acknowledge that we have done well ON THE PITCH.

Also, net spending since Newcastle takeover:

20. Brighton – £69.16million (profit)
19. Manchester City – £42.84million (profit)
18. Leicester City – £30.58million (profit)
17. Everton – £9.05million (profit)
16. Leeds United – £37.7million
15. Brentford – £43.09million
14. Fulham – £43.86million
13. Crystal Palace – £47.79million
12. Aston Villa – £68.22million
11. Bournemouth – £81.09million
10. Liverpool – £88.04million
9. Wolves – £107.45million
8. Southampton – £121.93million
7. Woolwich – £151.88million
6. West Ham – £154.17million
5. Tottenham – £154.92million
4. Nottingham Forest – £163.17million
3. Manchester United – £198.66million
2. Newcastle – £254.8million
1. Chelsea – £482.64million
 
Ed Vanderlay said:
Time to answer my 4 points , about how much was good planning as opposed to good fortune
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Your points rely on biased sources (a recently sacked manager) or negative assumptions. It’s not unbiased.

But in any case, you can’t avoid the central issue with your argument. If you want to ascribe good luck a bigger role in good performance then you have to give bad luck a greater role in bad performance.

But again, you want to create a situation where good things are down to luck and bad things down to Levy. You’re really biased on this.
 
LeParisien said:
Villa and Newcastle have not overtaken us. One season (in fact less than a season) particularly such a chaotic one, does not change 20 years of performance. That’s bed wetting.

There are other well run clubs too though and I take nothing away from them.

It wasn’t, by the way, a « we could be worse off » defence. It was asking you to recognise that the delta in PERFORMANCE between us and Everton over 20 years is proportional to the delta in LEADERSHIP. This is a tough league and so you have to acknowledge that we have done well ON THE PITCH.

Also, net spending since Newcastle takeover:

20. Brighton – £69.16million (profit)
19. Manchester City – £42.84million (profit)
18. Leicester City – £30.58million (profit)
17. Everton – £9.05million (profit)
16. Leeds United – £37.7million
15. Brentford – £43.09million
14. Fulham – £43.86million
13. Crystal Palace – £47.79million
12. Aston Villa – £68.22million
11. Bournemouth – £81.09million
10. Liverpool – £88.04million
9. Wolves – £107.45million
8. Southampton – £121.93million
7. Woolwich – £151.88million
6. West Ham – £154.17million
5. Tottenham – £154.92million
4. Nottingham Forest – £163.17million
3. Manchester United – £198.66million
2. Newcastle – £254.8million
1. Chelsea – £482.64million
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Lol so now nett spend counts , that was dismissed continually through the Poch and Redknapp years as irrelevant.

OK so in my opinion Newcastle are still yet to leverage Saudi muscle fully
Using your numbers above with a nett spend of 100 million more Newcastle have gone from relegation battlers to usurping in all likelihood a top 4 place. That is in one full season, whilst we are a project after 23 years

If you think Villa under Edens or Newcastle are a blip I must beg to differ
 
John Thomas said:
And the views of yet another Levy appointment....





"What are you chasing, titles or economic success"

"Are you trying to win money over titles"

"I should have resigned sooner when I saw what was happening "
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This confirms what some of us have said before, that it's financial success over sporting.
Any success (which there isn't) would be by accident rather than design, and for the sixth biggest club in the country and 9th richest worldwide is underachievement.
 
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