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Management Levy / ENIC

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Levy In or Levy Out


  • Total voters
    372
If it's relevant to the debate, I'll post what I like, where I like.
If it's not relevant, I keep it in this thread.
And I think a large percentage of the forum are more than happy for me to do so and find my input both interesting and thought provoking.

:kaneshh:

The fact I have a habit of being proven right also helps, probably.


You're quite new to this thread. Is it because you're feeling rattled by the Levy Out sentiment within the stadium last night?

Do you feel he is ultimately responsible for the alarming downturn in fortunes since failing to back and then firing Pochettino?
I just think that once you've made your point about Levy/ENIC it becomes like a broken record to keep repeating it all over the forum. But hey ho, it's up to you.

I'd be quite happy if Levy goes or if he stays, I don't care about the protests if that's what people want to do with their time.

I wish he hadn't sacked Pochettino but I'm not going to keep wasting my time repeating it on the forum.
 
It’s true though isn’t it, they only way they go is when someone pays what they want, if nobody reaches that number they’ll just hold on. It’s what they’ve done in the past. Man U are doing it now.

I do think the chanting in the crowd has to have a personal effect on him, it has to for any person. But whether it would make him more stubborn to stay or not is probably the question. It would make me want to stay as a two fingers up to the fans, but eventually I’d stop going to games or watch it from inside. I can’t see him doing that though, he’ll stay in his seat hoping it will blow over.
I would agree to a certain extent. However, if the fans are just happy to carry on applauding, supporting, apologising, accepting everything Levy / ENIC stand for I would imagine they would be far LESS likely to actively look to sell the club so long as the profits keep pouring in. Surely you're not suggesting they should be above criticism or the wrath of the crowd.... simply because they decide if or when they leave?

Our fans, especially the premium price paying match going fans, have every right to voice their discontent.

Of course, it can't force them out. But a disconcerted fanbase making their voices heard is much more likely to precipitate a sale than a happy clapping fanbase willing to take it up the arse every year.

History proves this to be the case. Gillette, Hicks, Ashley, Glazers..........
 
I would agree to a certain extent. However, if the fans are just happy to carry on applauding, supporting, apologising, accepting everything Levy / ENIC stand for I would imagine they would be far LESS likely to actively look to sell the club so long as the profits keep pouring in. Surely you're not suggesting they should be above criticism or the wrath of the crowd.... simply because they decide if or when they leave?

Our fans, especially the premium price paying match going fans, have every right to voice their discontent.

Of course, it can't force them out. But a disconcerted fanbase making their voices heard is much more likely to precipitate a sale than a happy clapping fanbase willing to take it up the arse every year.

History proves this to be the case. Gillette, Hicks, Ashley, Glazers..........
It's true that fan discontent has a pretty poor track record of forcing club sales. It's also true that fan discontent has been a non-negligible factor in some club sales, and if the ESL mess teaches us anything, it's probably to be a little less cynical about what mass fan protest is capable of achieving.

The truth is its own reward, anyway.
 
Whether or not ENIC is failing by my criteria surely depends partly on the timeframe taken into account. You know you mentioned earlier about looking for evidence to support a belief rather than the other way around - are you sure you didn't do that when choosing a 20-year timeframe? ;)
So, judging the totality of their involvement is wrong? Seems the most fair thing possible. Even if someone is starting out and you expect a few teething pains you can still evaluate them.

I asked you what is your time frame when I said...
Judge over an appropriate timeframe for proper context - what works for you? 2008? 2019?
Would you like to utilize a subset of the 20years? The seasons since the CL final? Since 2008? What works for you? Perhaps since the stadium was finished becasue that's when everyone said to hold our collective breaths...everything will be differenct after the stadium is built.
Naturally I appreciate ENIC couldn't make it all happen overnight, they needed time for anything they did to have impact, so considering the last 10 years seem reasonable enough to me - that gives ENIC plenty of years to bed their ways in and show improvement.
So you're giving an experience football club ownership group 10 years leeway to start putting them on the clock? That's quite generous of you...can you remind us exactly how many teams they held an owenership stake in? Are you sure 10years is a fair number then?

Did it take FSG 10 years to get Liverpool right? it's about 10-ish years for them about now-ish...think they've been getting it right for some time.

Think 10 years is a little unreasonable. Bet Boehly knows he better have things straight before 10 years from now...and he's never owned a football club.
but presumably in the last 10 years or thereabouts we have probably achieved my league expectation above haven't we?
since 2017, our high tide mark of 2nd, we are going backwards...and trends matter...and we look to be going further backwards than most are comfortable entertaining ATM.
With regard to trophies, you've rather conveniently ignored most of that clause - we have had several near misses, and I thought I was quite clear above that whilst ideally we would win a trophy every 5 years, getting into the positions to do so is success for me, knowing that if we keep getting close then on the law of averages we're bound to win one sooner or later (surely we've got to win a bloody final sooner or later! :) ).
I didn't ignore that caveat...I thought those hard numbers took those into acount. Personally, I don't think we should have won any of those finals/semis and we were the underdog in ALL of them so no big deal to me. However, where I ascribe fault is to the quality in the team...and that points to Levy. Finals take a bit of individual brilliance that we have lacked since Bale left. It doesn't have to be to that level but the team was dying for a player that could beat a man a la Hazard (again, not to that level).
With respect, the 'QED moment' comment seems a little arrogant - a 20-year timeframe leads my criteria to suggest failure, a 10-year timeframe doesn't, so that definitely shows not only recent 'success' but also improvement since ENIC arrived - why would this cause a QED moment for me?
Nowhere in your post do you suggest a 10yr timeframe...THAT'S WHY. You say
Just realised I've not answered your first question there, what does 'success' or 'good football results performance' look like for me. I'll be honest, I've not pinned or penned a precise criteria on it before as it could be impacted by many variable drivers, but roughly speaking nowadays it's something like:
- being in the race for top 4, achieving it let's say 2-3 times every 5 years, knowing that sometimes we will miss out, and sometimes we may be in the race for the title.
- ideally winning a trophy say every 5 years, but appreciating that sometimes luck plays a part in single games, so therefore at least getting close to winning a trophy (say semi-finals at least) once every 2/3 years.
- we may of course over or under perform for a couple of years within any given period, so the above would be judged over a medium to long term timeframe, let's say 3-5+ years.

So you mention 2-3 years, 3-5years, and 5years...ALL REASONABLE! 10 years is not mentioned AND I'm not sure its a reasonable timeframe anyway because the game moves too fast for that. For me 3-5 years is best but I chose the totality of their reign because that is always eminently fair.

And it's a QED moment because according to your own criteria one would have to evaluate Levy/ENIC as failing...which was to be demonstrated. Which supports the point that is it fair criticism.
 
Well I'd be amazed if you're right about the last bit (what kind of freak 'supports' an owning company?) but if it happens I guess we'll know soon after as they'll presumably stop posting here. Haha if it does happen I bet every week one or other of us will be claiming 'x doesn't post any more, I reckon they were Levy-lovers or Levy-bots' etc. :D
Personally I’ve always been a huge supporter of BMO Global Asset Management. I like their attacking flair, composure and killer instinct. Far superior to Tavistock Group.
 
I just think that once you've made your point about Levy/ENIC it becomes like a broken record to keep repeating it all over the forum. But hey ho, it's up to you.
OK. Thanks for letting me know. But, like you say, it's up to me.

And after all, this is the Levy / ENIC thread, so, hey ho, don't be to upset when visiting it if you find lots of posts about Levy and ENIC

Some repetitive critical stuff from the likes of me.
Some repetitive supportive stuff from the likes of the poster above.

So, if it's ok by you , I'll just carry on as usual. :thumbup:
 
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OK. But how does that work when 95% of my posts have been confined to this thread?
Which other threads have I been disrupting for you?
Always willing to listen
Zzz Ok GIF by Jim Gaffigan
 
OK. But how does that work when 95% of my Levy / ENIC related posts are confined to this thread?
Which other threads have I been disrupting for you?
Always willing to listen
You haven't disrupted any threads for me. Your input in most threads usually revolves around being negative about Levy/ENIC, or having a go at posters for not sharing your views on the matter.

I usually just see the theme of your posts and think to myself 'broken record' and scroll on by. Today I thought I'd try and find out what you're on about all the time by engaging with you on this thread.

But it's no use, you've gotten yourself into a sort of Levy hating rut. it's only a matter of time before you pipe up about NFL, Go-carting, Beyonce etc, as if those events have taken over from the football, rather than what they are ie being useful sources of revenue for the club. So without seeming to realise it you're indirectly praising Levy.
 
I usually just see the theme of your posts and think to myself 'broken record' and scroll on by. Today I thought I'd try and find out what you're on about all the time by engaging with you on this thread.


Yes. By asking what some would see as a rather silly, provocative question.
Tottenham Massive Tottenham Massive if we win a trophy next year would you want Levy to stay

To which I still had the good manners to give a reasonable, dignified response
That's an interesting question. 1 trophy in 16 years is still a pretty poor return.
However, if he also showed a commitment to prioritising investmment in our football club ahead of non football activities I would probably be prepared to relax my stance. I don't expect that to happen, but I'd like to be surprised.
I take it you want Levy to stay? How many more trophyless seasons would it take to change your mind? Or, whatever event, considering what we're seeing now on the back of countless other scandals, would tip your view?

You then proceeded to wet the bed and go off on one about not giving a rat's arse about Levy staying or leaving even though he's ultimately responsible for the team we both support :disdain:

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I'm happy to engage in reasonable debate as much as the next man or lady, but sometimes, reasonable debate seems beyond their reach
 
That's absolute bollocks. If he was Catholic, Muslim or any other race or religion the narrative would be the same because it's how he acts. Not his heritage.
There are and have been many Jewish owners and chairman in the Premier League. Abramovich, the Glazers, Gold etc.....
They're not targeted because they're Jewish.

And this debate was started by someone suggesting one or some of the banners were anti semitic. That is a serious allegation to make and should be substantiated.

If not, one can only conclude that people are using disgusting, unsubstantiated slurs to discredit those who want Levy / ENIC out of our club
He absolutely wouldn't! ....

It's the way Jews have been portrayed throughout history, and in storytelling, handed down through the generations.... or else why wasn't 'Shylock' Muslim, for example....?
Why was 'Fagin' not just yer regular shady Catholic criminal...? They didn't have to be Jewish... but it didn't half help the story along that they were!

The fact Levy behaves the way he does AND happens to be Jewish means he doesn't help himself... and you're right, the likes of David Gold, the Glazers, Kronke don't get targeted BECAUSE they're Jewish, but if they act in an over generalised and presumed 'jewush' way, then you can bet your hole it gets linked....
because unfortunately, the negative narrative of the tight fisted Jew has ALWAYS been there....

Or else it would just as likely be the 'tight fisted Muslim, or stingy, big-nosed Christian.... But you know as well as I do those phrases simply don't exist... Or else people would already be using them!

It's the unfortunate combination of a Jewish businessman behaving in a so called Jewish way, and being in charge of a commonly assumed 'Jewish Club' (even though Woolwich have as many Jewish fans/association as we do!....)
That's what the media (and the wider world) don't have any qualms at jumping on us for.... Even if they don't say it out loud!
 
Next season 5th place gets a CL place, if we finish 5th next season and for the next 10 years and win nothing, Levy/ENIC will be happy, the majority of supporters would be happy, therein lies the problem.
 
So, judging the totality of their involvement is wrong? Seems the most fair thing possible. Even if someone is starting out and you expect a few teething pains you can still evaluate them.

I asked you what is your time frame when I said...

Would you like to utilize a subset of the 20years? The seasons since the CL final? Since 2008? What works for you? Perhaps since the stadium was finished becasue that's when everyone said to hold our collective breaths...everything will be differenct after the stadium is built.

So you're giving an experience football club ownership group 10 years leeway to start putting them on the clock? That's quite generous of you...can you remind us exactly how many teams they held an owenership stake in? Are you sure 10years is a fair number then?

Did it take FSG 10 years to get Liverpool right? it's about 10-ish years for them about now-ish...think they've been getting it right for some time.

Think 10 years is a little unreasonable. Bet Boehly knows he better have things straight before 10 years from now...and he's never owned a football club.

since 2017, our high tide mark of 2nd, we are going backwards...and trends matter...and we look to be going further backwards than most are comfortable entertaining ATM.

I didn't ignore that caveat...I thought those hard numbers took those into acount. Personally, I don't think we should have won any of those finals/semis and we were the underdog in ALL of them so no big deal to me. However, where I ascribe fault is to the quality in the team...and that points to Levy. Finals take a bit of individual brilliance that we have lacked since Bale left. It doesn't have to be to that level but the team was dying for a player that could beat a man a la Hazard (again, not to that level).

Nowhere in your post do you suggest a 10yr timeframe...THAT'S WHY. You say


So you mention 2-3 years, 3-5years, and 5years...ALL REASONABLE! 10 years is not mentioned AND I'm not sure its a reasonable timeframe anyway because the game moves too fast for that. For me 3-5 years is best but I chose the totality of their reign because that is always eminently fair.

And it's a QED moment because according to your own criteria one would have to evaluate Levy/ENIC as failing...which was to be demonstrated. Which supports the point that is it fair criticism.
So if I understand correctly you are effectively suggesting I turn against ENIC because we failed to get top 4 in 2004, 2005, 2006 etc even though we’ve done it many times much more recently? Sorry but that makes absolutely no sense to me – surely what we all wanted to see was progress, improvement, and maybe it did take a long time, maybe if you’d asked me 15 years ago I might have been less supportive of ENIC (though I doubt I’d have had such lofty expectations back then), I’ve no idea, but it would be crazy to wait until the improvement came, and THEN turn against them. By that logic, if we’d won a trophy in each of the last 3 years we’d still turn against ENIC for performance reasons because 4 trophies in 23 years isn’t enough. However I don’t expect you do mean that, I expect I'm misunderstanding you, and I do appreciate that I wasn’t clear on timeframe so…

…perhaps a good way would be to look at what has been achieved over a rolling 4 year period in the last say 5 iterations of that as a good indication of relatively recent performance. (I say rolling 4 years rather than 5 simply because my initial criteria was 2/3 of every 5 years, giving an average of 2.5, and obviously you can’t finish in the top 4 in 2.5 years of 5! 😊). So in the 4 years up to season ending in May:

2022: 2/4 = Success
2021: 2/4 = Success
2020: 3/4 = Success
2019: 4/4 = Success
2018: 3/4 = Success

I believe the last time we failed to finish top 4 in 2 of the last 4 seasons was 2016. For me that constitutes success. I’m aware that the exact calculation method used is obviously open to manipulation, anyone can move timeframes and windows etc to ‘prove’ anything, such is the nature of data, but for me the above is one valid interpretation. But in any case the precise ‘mechanics’ doesn’t really matter that much as even if we didn’t quite achieve what I expected but only nearly achieved it, I’d still not consider that grounds to want the owner to sell up – as I said as the beginning, all teams have their ups and downs, I’m comfortable with that.

I must say I’ve sort of lost track though of what we’re trying to achieve here – may I ask what you’re trying to achieve via this conversation from your side? Let’s re-cap to help determine whether or not what we’re doing is worthwhile:
  • I wanted to see whether or not the arguments supportive of ENIC could be accepted / understood / empathised with by an intelligent ‘ENIC OUT’ supporter. I believe I have my answer to that question, so that bit was successful at least.
  • If not, I hoped to find out the fundamental reasons why – I think I probably have that bit too.
  • If I’m totally honest, of course deep down I wanted to convince you that there can be multiple arguments that can disagree with each other and yet all still be valid, and that the ENIC supporting argument is one of them. In this, clearly I have failed (but it’s not an objective I would have expected to succeed at so that’s ok).

What are you getting from this, if you don’t mind me asking?
  • Are you hoping to learn something?
  • Are you hoping to convince me that there simply is no valid argument supportive of ENIC?
  • Are you hoping to influence anyone reading this conversation to gain support for your cause?
  • Are you simply enjoying the debate?
I ask primarily because we’re now a long way from my ‘refereeing to ensure both sides see that the other has a list of points that makes sense in their heads, and can be articulated as such’ – we have moved now to me taking up a position as a player on the ENIC supporting side, defending individual assertions etc in detail. If that becomes the job of the referee, then how does it differ from the two sides simply debating between them? And as stated previously, I’m neither inclined nor equipped to play that role anyway – some of these discussions have happened hundreds of times over thousands of pages, I have no reason to believe that I can do anything to advance them or make any breakthroughs to enlighten us all, and I don’t (and never did) intend to try.

I’m going to leave this for the bank holiday weekend now, but should be able to pick it up again on Tuesday (at the latest) when I should have a bit more time available, if needed. Enjoy the rest of the weekend (and let’s hope tomorrow doesn’t leave any of us feeling depressed on Sunday evening… I don't know about you, but if I'm honest I probably detest the dippers more than I detest anyone else, even our traditional rivals, so even though the season seems pretty much ruined, beating them would still be a great one-off feeling for me personally - but winning aside, above all else let's just hope we see some fight :) ).
 
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