Great post - quality over quantity
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Management Ange Postecoglou
- Thread starter The Fighting Cock
- Start date
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Shearer on Sunday was a nightmare!
you're right and I've amended it
I hate watching Spurs on TV. My nerves/blood pressure can't take it.
It's nowhere near as bad watching it live.
for the teams that we put out it was ultimately good enough. we qualified in the top 4, lost once in 8 games
Conte was/is proven elite.
Iraola seems a very good prospect, but compared to Mourinho and Conte, has done nothing close.
Erm have you? Mine still shows it as it was before... :/
Well, lets admit it - the discussion here has become quite heated. From both sides obviously.
There is little doubt - everyone here want what is best for the club. Just their view what is best differs based on their interpretation of the situation.
I can admit (and have before), I am in the side of "Ange Out". But I feel that there are some very big misunderstandings going on here. I try to bring out two in short form. Not to convince anyone to change their stance, but just to explain this point of view.
1) INJURY SITUATION
I think that there is no one denying that there are lot of injuries and that has made the task of winning football matches much more difficult.
WHERE IT DIFFERS is that part of people see this as series of unfortunate events. And other sides puts responsibility of it on Ange shoulders.
2) RESULTS QUESTION
Well results are partly related to point 1. In here I cannot speak for 100% of the people that are in same (Ange Out) boat, but I believe still majority think along same lines - that current poor run of results in isolation would be forgivable. Because everyone make mistakes. I am pretty sure that no one in Ange Out side would seriously expect us to get guaranteed top 4 finish (not to even mention fighting for EPL title this season). But at least in my eyes, this current situation is NOT THE FIRST TIME OF SHOCKING RESULTS AND SHAPE OF THINGS. If we would have ended last season on high when the injured players returned, it would be very much different story for me. But very big questions came to my head already then. Just a quick reminder- last season from last 11 games we won 4 games. THREE of them were against relegated Burnley, Sheffield and Luton. One against Forest + draw against West Ham. Overall thus 13 points from 11 games. 1,2 ppg. With just one competition to participate in and with at least decent (if not full) availability.
There is little doubt - everyone here want what is best for the club. Just their view what is best differs based on their interpretation of the situation.
I can admit (and have before), I am in the side of "Ange Out". But I feel that there are some very big misunderstandings going on here. I try to bring out two in short form. Not to convince anyone to change their stance, but just to explain this point of view.
1) INJURY SITUATION
I think that there is no one denying that there are lot of injuries and that has made the task of winning football matches much more difficult.
WHERE IT DIFFERS is that part of people see this as series of unfortunate events. And other sides puts responsibility of it on Ange shoulders.
2) RESULTS QUESTION
Well results are partly related to point 1. In here I cannot speak for 100% of the people that are in same (Ange Out) boat, but I believe still majority think along same lines - that current poor run of results in isolation would be forgivable. Because everyone make mistakes. I am pretty sure that no one in Ange Out side would seriously expect us to get guaranteed top 4 finish (not to even mention fighting for EPL title this season). But at least in my eyes, this current situation is NOT THE FIRST TIME OF SHOCKING RESULTS AND SHAPE OF THINGS. If we would have ended last season on high when the injured players returned, it would be very much different story for me. But very big questions came to my head already then. Just a quick reminder- last season from last 11 games we won 4 games. THREE of them were against relegated Burnley, Sheffield and Luton. One against Forest + draw against West Ham. Overall thus 13 points from 11 games. 1,2 ppg. With just one competition to participate in and with at least decent (if not full) availability.
To find out if this argument of "managerial-merry-go-round" holds any water, I looked at the number of full time managers* some of the most established clubs in the world have had in the 21st century. Do we really change managers on a whim, especially in a way that other clubs do not? Let's see.
* All those teams had their fair share of interims as well by the way, so excluding them doesn't alter the picture.
Madrid:15
Barcelona:14
Milan:12
Inter:18
Dortmund:13
Bayern:13
PSV:11
Feyenoord:14
Tottenham:12
Liverpool:6
United:7
Chelsea:17
Woolwich:3
I'm not claiming 100 percent accuracy in those numbers, but the picture is clear regardless. Barring few exceptions that skew the numbers such as Guardiola, Wenger, SAF, Klopp and Arteta, teams change managers every 2 or 3 years. We do not sack managers like crazy, we're just somewhere in the middle. So I have no idea what the aforementioned argument is actually based on.
* All those teams had their fair share of interims as well by the way, so excluding them doesn't alter the picture.
Madrid:15
Barcelona:14
Milan:12
Inter:18
Dortmund:13
Bayern:13
PSV:11
Feyenoord:14
Tottenham:12
Liverpool:6
United:7
Chelsea:17
Woolwich:3
I'm not claiming 100 percent accuracy in those numbers, but the picture is clear regardless. Barring few exceptions that skew the numbers such as Guardiola, Wenger, SAF, Klopp and Arteta, teams change managers every 2 or 3 years. We do not sack managers like crazy, we're just somewhere in the middle. So I have no idea what the aforementioned argument is actually based on.
spurs job is coveted as fuck
Is anyone still making that argument though? I was certainly one of those making it back in September / October, when what we were experiencing what looked to me like a combination of a temporary 'bump in the road', along with some pretty bad luck in games, but performances have got worse and worse, and we are now consistently poor, even bearing in mind the missing players. For that reason, if we could replace Ange with a better solution (either a long-term solution, or a short-term solution with a long term one in mind for the summer) then I'd be fine with us making that change now. (Whether or not such solutions exist right now is a completely different conversation).
I do still think that sacking a manager as soon as you have a few bad results is a stupid idea that will just damage your club in the long term, as potential candidates will be put off if they think they won't get a fair crack at the whip, but surely everyone agrees that the current situation is way beyond that don't they? :/
We’ve got Lamar
Kendrick Lamar
I don’t quite think you understand
Kendrick Lamar
I don’t quite think you understand
So bleedin' obvious. We all have goals in life which in a perfect world, would go to our plan. But realists know that this rarely happens and you have to adjust accordingly.
Yeah that's right on the money imo
On paper and by all metrics the Spurs job is far more attractive than B’mouth. But if a prospective manager was very talented and very ambitious then doing what Slot did would be the sane thing to do, ie look at how Jose, Nuno & Conte faired under Levy & decide to wait another season until a better opportunity became available.
There’s an old football adage, ‘choose the chairman not the club’.
Admittedly a minority still seems to be making it in defense of Ange, but what I was referring to is the more general sentiment that Levy is an especially trigger happy chairman that pulls the rug out from under any manager in the face of adversity. Based on those numbers he doesn't seem to be doing anything exceptional. Whether he "backs" managers in a more general sense is another story, but in this narrow sense he's quite ordinary.
I think at this age managers have a quite realistic sense of their job safety, that's why during negotiations they try to insert clauses that'd yield them hefty payouts if/when they get the boot. So I don't see them being put off by that eventuality, pretty much any manager will get sacked at some point in his career. It doesn't tarnish anybody's reputation beyond repair in most cases.
For me it's simple.
After 18 months it is clear that Ange is not good enough to manage THFC.
He was given a chance and I don't blame him for taking the job.
Failing to recognise Ange's failure is another issue entirely.
What I see is a significant group of Spurs supporters wishfully thinking and not critically thinking. There are another significant group who have made their minds up. Some of these people reached their conclusion sooner than others. Then there are those who are committed to the club line who will back the manager until the club let him go.
Ange looks like a busted flush with every defeat and lame excuse that is offered.
We've been through the 'give him the cup games phase' and that went as most expected.
Climbing on board the next phase of hope, which seems to consist of players having a rest and other injured players returning, is not a bandwagon I wish to jump on.
We've been shit or inconsistent all season apart from the odd win here and there.
The manner of the defeats has been getting worse.
If Ange won the Europa League I would not trust him to start next season as THFC manager.
The project is dead.
An interim or permanent manager is now necessary to prevent the credibility of the club slipping any further under Ange.
It's untenable beyond this point.
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It's as if you can imagine what the oddest thing a team could do and if you wait around long enough it will happen with Spurs.Well that depends on your assessment of Postecoglou, for him it could get worse...
Next season he could be credited as the first Manager to lead us into the Championship.
I make the no-lose comment on the basis that I don't believe that there is a more inept manager on the cards, and on the assumption that we will at the very least hire someone competent next.
However, knowing Spurs...
