Not always. The amount of times they have 4v3 and they just slow the game down and let the opposition get back, they know they can break them down and trust their way of playing.
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Management Ange Postecoglou
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Not always. The amount of times they have 4v3 and they just slow the game down and let the opposition get back, they know they can break them down and trust their way of playing.
Totally agree. It probably helps Carlo has some of the best players in the world
Pretty much all pragmatists focus on defensive structure and allow the offensive talent they have the freedom to express themselves. Pragmatists work at teams with outstanding attacking talent, generally IMO.
Ancelotti is one of the very few managers that I think would actually win a trophy at this club, someone I have always wanted as I think he could deal with Levy and keep the players on board.
If it ever happens, and I would love to see it one day because he’s a GOAT, I will make a bet on arrival that in less than the usual 12 months there will be Spurs fans who want him out because the system is too rigid defensively and the attacking players aren’t a fit for his football.
Had to read some shite there that ange is odds on to be sacked and replaced with that cnut Brendan Rogers.
What a load of shite.
What state did Rogers leave Leicester in?
What state did he leave Celtic in before Leicester?when at Leicester he bottled successive champions league places in the run in.
Media should just shut the fcuk up and leave him to get on with the job.
What a load of shite.
What state did Rogers leave Leicester in?
What state did he leave Celtic in before Leicester?when at Leicester he bottled successive champions league places in the run in.
Media should just shut the fcuk up and leave him to get on with the job.
He really wouldn’t. Just look at the Everton debacle.
Ange is a good manager. He has a clear vision and, under the correct circumstances, that vision would work. Unfortunately, he’s setting us up as if we’re the best team in the league when, in terms of players, and certainly in terms of attacking players, we’re 6th or 7th.
No manager will overcome the fundamental fact that our recruitment is shit. A combination of incompetence, frugality and perhaps even bad luck means we’re always short.
I mean, look at Odobert. Nothing against the lad, he’s a teenager. But it feels like the club is genuinely taking the piss.
We went into some games without any recognised Centre backs!!! I have never known a team to get so many injuries as we did last season, at one point it was looking like the tea lady might even get a game!!!!
We didn't have no CB's. We were just better off playing fullbacks as CB's because the other option was Eric Dier. And again, it was a short period. Newcastle lost players for the majority of the season.
Watch this.
They played conservatively against us by their standards.
Watch how quickly the move the ball in to the final third so they have at least as many players as we have.
Watch their front press at at aprox 3m 30 where they have SEVEN players on our back line pressing us into a mistake.
We are nothing like City. Angeball is nothing close to Pepball. It's not even close.
View: https://youtu.be/FLgbyMtKzks?si=uirL-69LxJitIViq
Everton are far more of a pathetic shambles than we are. Mid table was quite the achievement for them when he got them 10th.
Since he left, 16th, 17th, 15th, and probably the same or even relegated this season.
WARNING - following post is bit of a rant.
TLDR: Ange style of play absolutely does not have higher ceiling than how Howe's team is playing. Examplified by number of examples in past 25 years (including from past year) in strongest football competition on the face of earth.
Post in full:
Uhm...
Sorry, I am not fully sure how to put this...
I think that it is blatantly obvious that Howe's way of playing is far higher ceiling.
There has literally only been ONE manager that has won the CL (which is the ultimate sign of quality and high ceiling) playing with this unlimited passing game with minimal directness. And this has been Pep Guardiola. Who had players like Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Busquests etc at his disposal in Barca. And then followed up with City who has superior resources to any other club in the world.
I have no idea how you claim that approach proven in such circumstances.
And please don't come out to claim that you can count Klopp's Liverpool to that pot. The attacking patterns of Klopp Liverpool are diametrically different to way Guardiolas teams attack (and how Ange seems to want to set up us too).
After 2000s what club has won how many CLs?
- Real - 7
- Barcelona - 4
- Bayern - 3
- Chelsea, Liverpool, Milan - 2
- Inter, Porto, ManU, Manchester City - 1
I go out on a limb and say that 5 out of 24 are won with this total possession based football.
Most successful manager in competition (who is also current champion) ? - Ancellotti. If you claim that his objective is to have 65% possession, playing high line and keep play in opposition half as much as it can be done, I have to say I don't agree with you.
You know, just last season City and Real met head to head in playoff.
In these games Real had 38% of possession at home and 33% in away game.
You know who progressed? Real. Who went on to win the whole thing. Again.
So despite having unlimited funds and being on job for 8 years, this "higher ceiling" system fell to very pragmatic approach of very pragmatic coach in charge of most successful club in the world.
I obviously do not remember all of the playing style of all of the coaches in past 24 years, but I very clearly remember Jupp Heynckes Bayern absolutely demolishing Barcelona in their run to 2012-2013 CL triumph. And then came on this "high ceiling football" manager Pep who had the same squad smashed by way more pragmatic Real Madrid.
Within one decade of Bayern history from list of permanent coaches of Louis van Gaal, Jupp Heynckes, Pep Guardiola, Carlo Ancellotti, Niko Kovac, Hansi Flick - do you know who of them reached CL finals and who did not?
Managers who did - Louis Van Gaal, Jupp Heynckes (2x), Hansi Flick. Managers who did not - Pep Guardiola (after taking over team that had reached two successive finals before his reign!), Carlo Ancellotti, Niko Kovac.
So - no - having 2/3 of possession and pushing play into one third of the pitch does not have "higher ceiling". And this simplistic narrative always pisses me off. You can say that you personally prefer to watch football where your team has very high share of possession - that is subjective preference and it is totally OK. Different people, different tastes. But there is no point of claiming like this hip, cool and progressive way of playing has higher ceiling or clearly more to show for it. It does not.
So pretty much the same as us last season.
Funny how Howe gets a pass for injuries, by supposed Tottenham fans, but our own manager doesn't.
Fully agree. People have gone full magic realism on this Angeball guff. It's post 2000's Barcelona fetishism. Even Pep has moved on he is playing the T-1000 up front and four units along the back, with Rhodri sat in front of them. They are not at all adverse to going long to Haaland if required. This imaginary ceiling, is just that imaginary.
Come on
Richard Arlison
you have been quite constructive in the discussions, even though the topic is emotional and heated. But you cannot seriously claim that options are - pragmatic meaning Jose Mourinho a'la 2024 and progressive meaning Ange or Pep a'la 2024. You have to understand that there is middle ground there.
I also wrote longer post just recently, but based on what I saw I'd mention good pragmatic managers - Ancellotti (edgeing out this "super progressive Pep just last year), Jupp Heynces, Hansi Flick - two managers who both side of Pep reign in Bayern won CL for the German team while Pep with same material never made to CL final.
It does not mean that either approaches would be dead. But presenting some turnover stats as some kind of win after our start to current campaign is mildly funny for me. Of course both approaches do exist and I can see both enjoying success too.
Much bigger question is - what type suits Spurs better in the long run.
I very much doubt that we can outPep Pep himself and buy better players with much less funds. We will be underdogs against them, and for underdog role, some more adjustable and pragmatic approach, I honestly believe, suits better. That does not mean ultra defensive football though.
Ange on links to Ivan Toney
"We looked at him but the reality was that Dom is the one that I wanted. It took the whole summer to get him in but he was the one that fitted the profile that we wanted".
but but but the board forced solanke on Poor Ange.
"We looked at him but the reality was that Dom is the one that I wanted. It took the whole summer to get him in but he was the one that fitted the profile that we wanted".
but but but the board forced solanke on Poor Ange.
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Great choice too
Come on
1. But you cannot seriously claim that options are - pragmatic meaning Jose Mourinho a'la 2024 and progressive meaning Ange or Pep a'la 2024.
2. I also wrote longer post just recently, but based on what I saw I'd mention good pragmatic managers - Ancellotti (edgeing out this "super progressive Pep just last year), Jupp Heynces, Hansi Flick -
It does not mean that either approaches would be dead. But presenting some turnover stats as some kind of win after our start to current campaign is mildly funny for me. Of course both approaches do exist and I can see both enjoying success too.
Much bigger question is - what type suits Spurs better in the long run.
3.I very much doubt that we can outPep Pep himself and buy better players with much less funds. We will be underdogs against them, and for underdog role, some more adjustable and pragmatic approach, I honestly believe, suits better. That does not mean ultra defensive football though.
1. I haven't said that anywhere. Not sure how you reached that idea but that was you thinking I said that, not me actually saying that.
2. Flick is much more similar to Ange in philosophy than any of the pragmatists people have mentioned in here.His teams press like maniacs and control the ball to control the game. They also have the target of moving the ball forward as fats as possible. Granted Ange isn't getting that from this team atm.I actually posted a stat that the top 3 teams in Europe atm for high turnovers is Flick's Barca, Us and City.
3. Who said Ange is trying to out Pep, Pep? certainly not him. There was an interview, maybe even 2 interviews where he laughed off the suggestion that he copies Pep. There are some in here that think it's trying to be like Pep but the only real similarities are pressing intensity and possession. That's not a similar philosophy that's just being pragmatic about mathematically trying to improve your chance to win a game of football.
I'm thinking that the major problem with Ange isn't even the tactics, but his decision making. He chooses the wrong players and his substitutins are even worst most of the time. Like Brennan, that was a player he wanted and we paid 50 fucking millions. Brennan isn't and will never be a player to play this system, that's 50 million just throwed away. Werner apparently was his choice too (the guy is a copy of Brennan). Solanke? Ok, too soon to judge, but we could have a far better player with that money. Then comes the fact of leaving Spence out of EL, the odd subs, playing Son and Johnson on the wings... it seems every decision he takes is wrong.
Give a few examples.
1. I meant that you brought Jose into it and then explained why he should be strongly linked with term pragmatist. I just wanted to emphasize that it is not really the case. Sorry if that came out as if you would have said exactly that. I tried to say that you couldn't/shouldn't.
2. Yea..no. Look, Bayern is my 2nd team since like 2008 or so. I have watched so many games managed by him. NEVER has there been such endless passing around the box we've seen almost for full 12 months. Also we do not control the game in any way - we control the possession and it is entirely different thing.
I mean it is weird to say "Ange isn't getting that from his team", as it has lasted for so long. Either he cannot make players understand what he wants or he actually does not want it. Both options are poor, as I see it.
3. Just watch the game. Just watch the stats you post yourself, not hear what he says. Remember, I told I have followed Bayern quite a lot. There was Pep era there too you know. And this endless passing with close to 0 penetration and directness is quite familiar from that era. Both play high line, want to have all the ball, keep possession and make large amount of passes until there will be some opening in dangerous areas. Difference being right now - City players can create this opening and ours cannot.
I can't beleive that the effects of injuries are being diminished. Perisic gone. Soloman gone. Maddison gone. Van den Ven gone. Bissouma gone. Udogie gone. Bentancur gone. Richarlison gone. This is off the top of my head. No doubt I've missed some others. Then there were the internationals. A fit first 11 has been the exception not the norm.
He may get the sack but lets at least be honest about the facts.