Everyone has had a chance to scout us in detail now. It was bound to get harder.
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Doesn’t scream anything like that to me.
Think it’s a cheap shot to say the football is bad after every game we lose.
It’s a work in progress
I have no idea of the setup in Japan and Scotland but the amount of people premier league clubs have analysing matches, data etc etc is crazy.
The flip side of that is we will be doing exactly the same.
Then it really comes down to quality of players if your game plan remains the same.
City can do it as they have threats all across the front line. We just don’t have that same level of player.
It’s as though a large portion of Internet fan base, and I use the word “fan” very very loosely, don’t have the spine for a proper rebuild and it’s starting to show. This is what happens when you neglect the playing side for years and try and fix it all quickly. It’s gonna be inconsistent.
It’s been said by others before that Kloppo, Pep and Lego Man Arteta were all super up and down in their first 12/18 months. Those window lickers on Arse TV were making Arteta Out T-shirts.
Literally had a summer of everyone saying “it’s gonna be shit and we will finish 9th/10th, but ok we will be moving forward towards playing the Spurs way” and now it’s an issue when we are probably gonna finish 5th! After losing Kane. And signing a couple wingers to replace him. A large dollop of perspective is needed.
I think it was southampton at home when we lost 3 2 under Conte and he said we were say to play against because he knew exactly what we were going to do. So it has happened with other managers. Maybe the answer for the rest of the season is to just get better at doing it?
Two fucking weeks now before the hardest run of games of the season. There is zero excuses not to hit those games hard, aggressively and hungrily. We should be absolutely starving for that scum game and the others. Fly out the traps.
Can take years to implement a style. Although my biggest concern, especially relative to the comparisons to Arteta and Klopp, is those two pretty much cleaned house and recycled through almost the entire squad they inherited. Klopp & Arteta did not inherit their preferred back 4, so when they shipped goals early in their tenure, you can put it down to past management and excuse Arteta and Klopp of most of the blame while they set about building the team in their own image.
However ive been told this back 4 is elite and unworthy of any criticism. Ive been told our centre half pairing is on the same level at the teams in the top 3, perhaps even better!!!
So in that regard, Ange has his set defence from the get go, where as Klopp and Arteta didnt. So why excuse the defence and the amount of goals we concede, when there is little intention to make changes to the elite back 4?
Were doing it again. Were putting a 'untouchable' tag on a players whose performances are undeserving. Have we learnt nothing from Kulusevski and Bissouma? Two other players we crowned before they really did anything tangible.
Virgin Van Djik and Saliba transformed the backlines of Liverpool and Woolwich from their first match. Our defensive prowess has not transformed into something greater under Romero, despite the fact this is his third season. So forgive me if im not going to wet myself as this marvel partnership and backline when the defensive numbers are average. And I mean average in a literal sense, if you look at the goals conceded, you can pretty much group 4th place to 10th and there are all within touching distance. Then there is the top 3, who are miles ahead of the rest.
For the record, I do think its a playing personnel and less on Ange. He is doing as well as anyone could with the quality as his disposal. I think we are better than Villa, so we are 'the best of the rest'.
However ive been told this back 4 is elite and unworthy of any criticism. Ive been told our centre half pairing is on the same level at the teams in the top 3, perhaps even better!!!
So in that regard, Ange has his set defence from the get go, where as Klopp and Arteta didnt. So why excuse the defence and the amount of goals we concede, when there is little intention to make changes to the elite back 4?
Were doing it again. Were putting a 'untouchable' tag on a players whose performances are undeserving. Have we learnt nothing from Kulusevski and Bissouma? Two other players we crowned before they really did anything tangible.
Virgin Van Djik and Saliba transformed the backlines of Liverpool and Woolwich from their first match. Our defensive prowess has not transformed into something greater under Romero, despite the fact this is his third season. So forgive me if im not going to wet myself as this marvel partnership and backline when the defensive numbers are average. And I mean average in a literal sense, if you look at the goals conceded, you can pretty much group 4th place to 10th and there are all within touching distance. Then there is the top 3, who are miles ahead of the rest.
For the record, I do think its a playing personnel and less on Ange. He is doing as well as anyone could with the quality as his disposal. I think we are better than Villa, so we are 'the best of the rest'.
Pep had to do a lot of individual coaching with players his first season.
To the point of drawing areas on the pitch they had to stay in as they would just wander off to do their own thing.
Like coaching kids!!
The next few games are massive for the Ange project. Not for the results but for the mentality.
As much as everyone on here is saying to play scared and be more pragmatic and “Plan B” and similar crap… The players will be thinking it too.
They are a fragile bunch and will need strong leadership to really have the courage to play the way we play and go and attack the toughest set of fixtures in the season.
If Ange wavers from his mentality and caves in now and we see less of an attacking mentality from his instructions, we may as well kiss goodbye to any idea of this project going anywhere.
As much as everyone on here is saying to play scared and be more pragmatic and “Plan B” and similar crap… The players will be thinking it too.
They are a fragile bunch and will need strong leadership to really have the courage to play the way we play and go and attack the toughest set of fixtures in the season.
If Ange wavers from his mentality and caves in now and we see less of an attacking mentality from his instructions, we may as well kiss goodbye to any idea of this project going anywhere.
Posted this in the match thread but popping in here too as seems relevant.
Few thoughts from me on the game.
Overall it’s been a really good season and no matter what happens from here until the end of the season I’m Ange all in. The future is very bright!
The only concern is how prevalent some of these issues have been for a while and how we seem to be hoping they’ll go away as opposed to strategising around them. Work to be done.
COYS
Few thoughts from me on the game.
- Overall, utter poo. To have nearly 3/4 of the possession, do so little with it and yet Newcastle look threatening every time they go forward really was a concern.
- First goal, calamity of errors all round. I actually felt sorry for VDV on this one as anyone can slip, but Son and Maddison losing the ball on the edge of their box, Udogie getting muscled by Gordon and most importantly, Romero stepping to Gordon when he really didn’t need to as VDV was right in front of him - the whole thing was a shambles.
- Watching it back, I’m not even sure Romero knew Isak was there. Very poor.
- The other 2 goals, obvs poor from Porro on the first but VDV has done poorly for both. Nightmare game for him but I won’t single him out as he’s been so good for us all season.
- Newcastle’s tactics could have been created by a spurs fan who knows how we struggle; press high and if we do break the press set 2 banks on the edge of your area because we can’t break that down.
- Biss is a problem. 5 games into the season I had an argument with a gooner saying he would be better than Rice, I feel like an idiot now. Apart from his lack of overall energy /presence, the most alarming thing for me is how he isn’t helping the back 4 transition from defence to attack in the slightest. Not even a little. The Biss of the start of the season was demanding the ball under pressure and retaining it, helping us to transition into attacking patterns. He doesn’t want it now. He’s allowing himself to be marked so easily and isn’t creating space to pick the ball u off the back 4. Big big issue, I’ve been no fan of PEH but he should have started yesterday. Biss isn’t there right now. The biggest criticism of Hojbjerg is how poor he is under pressure with his back to goal, but at least he wants the ball. Bissouma is hiding right now
- Alongside Biss we need to talk about Son. Sonny has good stats this season but his overall play outside of that initial run has been utterly shocking. It has for 2 seasons now. He CANNOT RETAIN THE BALL UNDER ANY PRESSURE. What I don’t understand is why he is coming deep so often, stick on the shoulder and spread the pitch. No defender wants Son running in behind them. Not sure why he’s trying to play like Kane.
- The overall quality of our attacking trio is more like top 6-10 level rather than top 4. Long way to go there. I’ve written for months about the inability of our wide players to really beat their man with any guile and what a problem that is, won’t go into that again.
- Ok, our inability to beat a “set” defence. It’s a worry. We play in and around the edge of the area for prolonged periods without any real plan as to how we create a chance or penetrate the back line. My biggest concern is how few men we have making the box. Werner gets it on the left, he generally has Udogie underlapping, and 3 CMs (including our number 10 Maddison) queueing on the edge of the box to receive a square ball, and no one making the box with runs from deep. If Maddison is going to demand the ball square, Son and Johnson need to be in the box and Bentancur and Porro need to be making late runs to joint them. Runs from deep are so hard to mark, it’s how Fat Frank scored a billion goals - we don’t have any of that. It’s all too predictable, too low-risk and too slow.
- Set pieces. At what point do we wave the white flag on this zonal tactic? Every corner was nerve inducing and any scouting report on us would say it’s an area of concern. It absolutely has to be sorted.
- MF generally. There was a time around December where I thought outside of City we had the best MF in the PL. We are miles off that right now. It’s time to mix it up. If PEH, Sarr and GLC would have played against us yesterday they’d have ran the show, I really believe that. Hojbjerg should have started and I really think we could get more out of Lo Celso.
- Porro has not been the same player for a month or so now. Doesn’t seem to have had that aggression. Carrying an injury perhaps?
Overall it’s been a really good season and no matter what happens from here until the end of the season I’m Ange all in. The future is very bright!
The only concern is how prevalent some of these issues have been for a while and how we seem to be hoping they’ll go away as opposed to strategising around them. Work to be done.
COYS
Real concerns after Fulham and yesterday. I mean there is losing and then there are defeats where you're pretty much humiliated. Dreadful defending, powder puff attack , little or no fight and heads dropping. When we were losing in that bad run of injuries we still had something about us.
Overall you'd say the season has had more postives than negatives but there are question marks.
Overall you'd say the season has had more postives than negatives but there are question marks.
We set up to play with an “attacking” mentality against Newcastle and produced almost nothing.
It’s clear now that the all out attack style is stifling our players. They are aware of the enormous spaces left behind them and so they play tentatively and slowly as they are so afraid to give the ball away and cause a counter attack.
This ends up being a self fulfilling prophecy as our sluggish play and dawdling allows the opponent to protect their box, press us into errors and attack those huge spaces anyway.
You can play attacking football without leaving your own goal totally exposed. Liverpool, Woolwich, Villa and City all play a high line and condense the play but they don’t leave themselves 2v2 at the back every single time they go forward. Just some small tweaks would restore solidity and confidence to the team. They clearly can’t handle playing this way anymore. Our players are ignoring even simple forward passes because they are so afraid to give the ball away.
1. You don’t give up on your identity after a bad performance. That’s weak and reactive. Exactly what I’m saying Ange can’t do if he has any ambition for his project here.
2. No it isn’t. What’s clear is that the players aren’t good enough or aren’t playing well enough.
3. We don’t leave ourselves exposed everytime and even then comparing yourself to others when you are trying to build and identity is another sure fire way to kill your chances of building an identity. Pep and Klopp learn from their environment but there is no chance in hell they base their philosophy on others. Arteta don’t even have a philosophy, he’s a cheap Pep mimmick.
Either you want a “tactical” manager that’s scared of their opponents and tries to win with an underdog mentality by adapting the whole thing to counteract the opponent (we tried this already btw) or you have the courage to try and build a big club mentality and go out to dominate games against any opponent with your football.
I’m not saying Ange’s courage will pay off but the only thing he could do to make me quit on him now is to cave in after a bad result and few grumbles from frustrated fans. As long as he has the conviction to stick to the plan, I’m behind it.
Because with Levy / ENIC at the helm we all know deep down that any so called rebuild will ultimately end in failure. Whichever manager is in the dugout. It'll be half hearted, cost conscious while other non football opportunities are exploited.
We have nearly a quarter of a century of evidence to back this up.
You're post is a great example of Levy successfully lowering fans expectations.
Tweaking things is not giving up your identity. Nobody is asking Ange to park the bus and play with 5 defenders.
Pep never used to play with a classic big man up front but how he has a Yeti up front, has he given up his identity? Of course not, City still play the Pep way.
We can easily play Ange-ball with Bissouma sitting deeper and patrolling the half way line rather than pushing up to the edge of the box along with our full backs.
I think the reason we are so vulnerable to the counter is we don’t press that well, City play high like us but when they lose the ball they are quick to close the passing options and generally limit the damage. Some of this will be fixed with time (next season I think we will be better) but some of this is that certain players will need to be upgraded and simply aren’t capable of this.
We moan of being linked to Onana and Gallagher but both of them are fantastic midfield pressing players who prevent counters and can create opportunities via winning the ball back high. We don’t have any players like that, Hojbjerg and Skipp are the closest and they aren’t mobile enough while Bentancur isn’t quite the player he was yet (understandable given an ACL). Sarr is a nice player but has a lot to improve on and Bissouma isn’t the guy he was at the start of the season for some weird reason.
This style of football does work and has been proven to but you need:
1: time as player generally get better at this as time goes on, see Arse, Liverpool, City in the early Pep, Klopp, Arteta period. Even Pep was a mess.
2: backing by the club and I mean we need to spend 100-200m net probably this window to get a better midfield and attack. This is clearly the issue that could fuck us.
3 to go with number 2 good scouting, you need to buy players who fit this way of playing.
We can’t keep sacking managers and starting all over again. We have to stick with a style and back it and actually have the balls to spend big money on the right players. Otherwise we will always have a glass ceiling that never breaks.
The biggest issue we face as a club is our leadership have never had any real football convictions. Its way to pragmatic, if the club doesn’t dream then the fans won’t either.
Optus Sport
sport.optus.com.au
Ange said himself there will be bumps in the road and the first season will be tough.
If the same mistakes are happening in the 2nd/3rd seasons then I'd fully understand the frustrations but this season really is a massive building block to what we want to achieve.
I don’t disagree with any of that, the last thing we should be thinking about is another change of manager.
But we are in the run in now and we need to win games. Some minor tactical tweaks is not going to destroy our progress.
Or just a plan that fucking works?If ange won't consider a PLAN-B..what about a PLAN-A.v2
Easiest tweak would be Bentancur and Hojbjerg. I felt Bissouma and Sarr have been a bit off it and additionally we need a bit more experience fighting Woolwich. We are obviously going to play high as that is how we are but using more positionally clever players might work.
Also much as he is frustrating Kulusevski has been, he is good off the ball.
Was thinking the below to start the game and keep it tight with Johnson, Sarr, Bissouma, Werner and Lo Celso to be thrown on when we need fresh legs and the game gets stretched.
Vicario
Porro Romero VDV Udogie
Hojbjerg Bentancur Maddison
Kulusevski Richarlison Son