Ange Postecoglou

[HampshireSpur]

I think the reason we are so vulnerable to the counter is we don’t press that well, City play high like us but when they lose the ball they are quick to close the passing options and generally limit the damage. Some of this will be fixed with time (next season I think we will be better) but some of this is that certain players will need to be upgraded and simply aren’t capable of this.

We moan of being linked to Onana and Gallagher but both of them are fantastic midfield pressing players who prevent counters and can create opportunities via winning the ball back high. We don’t have any players like that, Hojbjerg and Skipp are the closest and they aren’t mobile enough while Bentancur isn’t quite the player he was yet (understandable given an ACL). Sarr is a nice player but has a lot to improve on and Bissouma isn’t the guy he was at the start of the season for some weird reason.

This style of football does work and has been proven to but you need:

1: time as player generally get better at this as time goes on, see Arse, Liverpool, City in the early Pep, Klopp, Arteta period. Even Pep was a mess.

2: backing by the club and I mean we need to spend 100-200m net probably this window to get a better midfield and attack. This is clearly the issue that could fuck us.

3 to go with number 2 good scouting, you need to buy players who fit this way of playing.

We can’t keep sacking managers and starting all over again. We have to stick with a style and back it and actually have the balls to spend big money on the right players. Otherwise we will always have a glass ceiling that never breaks.

The biggest issue we face as a club is our leadership have never had any real football convictions. Its way to pragmatic, if the club doesn’t dream then the fans won’t either.

Good post.

No need to throw the baby out with the bathwater, there's been progress this season but I do have question marks. There are occasions when you need to be pragmatic and close things out and our defending as a unit is worrying me. Throw a few hundred mill at Ange and let him build his team, then judge fully at the end of next season.

 

[spPadre24]

Two weeks to get their collective shit together and rip into Arsnal, a really basic display from just about everyone, I swear I saw a 127 formation out there more than once, guys just up in the front third doing nothing at all, the inverted full backs work when they are driving through the lines not line dancing up forward larping as strikers. Ange and his coaches need to rediscover that cohesion the team played with earlier, the choppping and changing in the midfield says that they don't know what the best team looks like, that's not really what you want to see this far into the season. Last week I was on Team Werner, he does a decent job getting up and down the line and for 15m no worries but guys who miss as consistently as he does can lead to heads dropping, still no excuse for that game though.

 

[Shotgunofmichalebrow]

And after he makes those changes there will be something else about the system that can be exploited.

there is always something easy to exploit about any system.

No I'm not sure that's what's happening mate. I could be wrong obviously but I fear its inherently too easy to exploit at the elite level, surrendering that much space in behind. I think even prime Kyle Walker would struggle to cope with that constant duels with forwards. I hope I'm wrong, I'm desperate to be wrong

 

[Tomo]

Good post.

No need to throw the baby out with the bathwater, there's been progress this season but I do have question marks. There are occasions when you need to be pragmatic and close things out and our defending as a unit is worrying me. Throw a few hundred mill at Ange and let him build his team, then judge fully at the end of next season.

Kompany at Burnley is a good case. He had about the 1-4th best squad in the Championship. He absolutely killed the league in a way that rarely happens and was playing Pepball basically. He then tried to take that championship level team and do the same in the Prem, didn’t work.

The style Ange is playing is similar to a style that wins trophies if you have elite players and the right players but is very vulnerable if you don’t. You could hand the City team to Moyes and he would fuck it up but you know he would at least get top 4. What Pep does, what Klopp does is take huge risks that mostly pay off if you have the right group of players, it’s very high risk, very high reward football.

What this means in my view is if we get a squad that can play this way and is elite enough over time we will compete for trophies. However if we half arse recruitment and can’t get the squad to at least Arsena1 level then it will probably end up another failed project at this club.

All fans overrate their players, I do it, I see rivals fans like West Ham fans thinking Bowen is Foden level. Aside from a few like Vacario, Udogie, VDV none of them have been consistently good performers. The way our players mentally dropped at 2-0 is a big warning. I fully get why we get linked with Gallagher and Onana who are aggressive barstards and why we are linked with players who play on the edge like Nico Williams. There is a hell of a lot more work to be done with this squad and you can really see the level of a world class player, Kane is miles clear of everyone in our current squad, we would have had top 4 easily wrapped up if he was still here.

 

[HampshireSpur]

Kompany at Burnley is a good case. He had about the 1-4th best squad in the Championship. He absolutely killed the league in a way that rarely happens and was playing Pepball basically. He then tried to take that championship level team and do the same in the Prem, didn’t work.

The style Ange is playing is similar to a style that wins trophies if you have elite players and the right players but is very vulnerable if you don’t. You could hand the City team to Moyes and he would fuck it up but you know he would at least get top 4. What Pep does, what Klopp does is take huge risks that mostly pay off if you have the right group of players, it’s very high risk, very high reward football.

What this means in my view is if we get a squad that can play this way and is elite enough over time we will compete for trophies. However if we half arse recruitment and can’t get the squad to at least Arsena1 level then it will probably end up another failed project at this club.

All fans overrate their players, I do it, I see rivals fans like West Ham fans thinking Bowen is Foden level. Aside from a few like Vacario, Udogie, VDV none of them have been consistently good performers. The way our players mentally dropped at 2-0 is a big warning. I fully get why we get linked with Gallagher and Onana who are aggressive barstards and why we are linked with players who play on the edge like Nico Williams. There is a hell of a lot more work to be done with this squad and you can really see the level of a world class player, Kane is miles clear of everyone in our current squad, we would have had top 4 easily wrapped up if he was still here.

Yeah good thoughts again Tomo

My concern here is I think we'll always be vulnerable to being caught out with our style of play and identity. I get it will take a while to implement and I've enjoyed watching us more overall this season but if the litmus test is trophies the jury is very much out whether this gets us over the line, even with a much improved squad.

 

[erlee]

However ive been told this back 4 is elite and unworthy of any criticism. Ive been told our centre half pairing is on the same level at the teams in the top 3, perhaps even better!!

unknowingly (?) you have hit the nail on the head.

This style of play
* mindless possession upfront & then losing the ball to opposition when the wh0le spurs team is camped there,,,
* moving back upfield
is a big test for any team - elite or not. Even Liverpool and Man City don't play like that. Esp Liverpool - Robertson and Trent lop it up with ping at times. Nobody currently plays like that,

Risk v Reward - spurs way
(1) calculated mini/slow passing in opposition's half or box.
(2) BUT Brave gungho risky passing frm our goalie to fullback to mid to inverted backs.
most of the time back is turned to opp.

Your CBs cannot marshall or call out defence personnel/positioning when he is constantly facing his own half and goalie - scrambling from the ultra high def line.

 

[Richard Arlison]

No I'm not sure that's what's happening mate. I could be wrong obviously but I fear its inherently too easy to exploit at the elite level, surrendering that much space in behind. I think even prime Kyle Walker would struggle to cope with that constant duels with forwards. I hope I'm wrong, I'm desperate to be wrong

If that were the case we’d have been hammered against the better teams we’ve played. But we weren’t.

It’s about how well you execute on the day and the personnel matchups.

 

[Richard Arlison]

Tweaking things is not giving up your identity. Nobody is asking Ange to park the bus and play with 5 defenders.

Pep never used to play with a classic big man up front but how he has a Yeti up front, has he given up his identity? Of course not, City still play the Pep way.

We can easily play Ange-ball with Bissouma sitting deeper and patrolling the half way line rather than pushing up to the edge of the box along with our full backs.

How do you know those tweaks aren’t happening?

We have won more points from behind and in the second half than almost any team. Suggests to me that in game tweaks are happening too.

Based on yesterday any tweak will have been executed badly by the players.

 

[Richard Arlison]

unknowingly (?) you have hit the nail on the head.

This style of play
* mindless possession upfront & then losing the ball to opposition when the wh0le spurs team is camped there,,,
* moving back upfield
is a big test for any team - elite or not. Even Liverpool and Man City don't play like that. Esp Liverpool - Robertson and Trent lop it up with ping at times. Nobody currently plays like that,

Risk v Reward - spurs way
(1) calculated mini/slow passing in opposition's half or box.
(2) BUT Brave gungho risky passing frm our goalie to fullback to mid to inverted backs.
most of the time back is turned to opp.

Your CBs cannot marshall or call out defence personnel/positioning when he is constantly facing his own half and goalie - scrambling from the ultra high def line.

We lost and played badly.

That’s it

 

[Sir Archibald Crooks]

Kompany at Burnley is a good case. He had about the 1-4th best squad in the Championship. He absolutely killed the league in a way that rarely happens and was playing Pepball basically. He then tried to take that championship level team and do the same in the Prem, didn’t work.

The style Ange is playing is similar to a style that wins trophies if you have elite players and the right players but is very vulnerable if you don’t. You could hand the City team to Moyes and he would fuck it up but you know he would at least get top 4. What Pep does, what Klopp does is take huge risks that mostly pay off if you have the right group of players, it’s very high risk, very high reward football.

What this means in my view is if we get a squad that can play this way and is elite enough over time we will compete for trophies. However if we half arse recruitment and can’t get the squad to at least Arsena1 level then it will probably end up another failed project at this club.

All fans overrate their players, I do it, I see rivals fans like West Ham fans thinking Bowen is Foden level. Aside from a few like Vacario, Udogie, VDV none of them have been consistently good performers. The way our players mentally dropped at 2-0 is a big warning. I fully get why we get linked with Gallagher and Onana who are aggressive barstards and why we are linked with players who play on the edge like Nico Williams. There is a hell of a lot more work to be done with this squad and you can really see the level of a world class player, Kane is miles clear of everyone in our current squad, we would have had top 4 easily wrapped up if he was still here.

Hit the nail on the head here. I think its already apparent that Ange isnt the sort of manager that is going to get a team playing way above the sum of its parts. Thats no slight, there are very few managers that can do that. He simply needs better players more suited to his system but we've been here before. Always comes back to the same question, do the club want success enough?

 

[Coys1955]

I wish Ange would stop that "I couldn't care less about 4th mate" rubbish. I get it, targetting 4th in January is wrong; you should be going for the top, but once that target is no longer attainable you should go for what is. And that's now 4th. Why should the players care if he doesn't? They didn't look at all bothered yesterday.

And if they don't care, the fans do FFS. For (most of us) the CL is a realistic target. Not winning it, obviously (although that should be the target if we qualify no matter how ridiculous it sounds), but qualifying; that will earn the club more money (probably to waste, but at least it will help with PSR), give us at least four CL nights at the Lane to enjoy (or not) and we may be able to attract some higher profile replacements in the summer.

Rant over...

 

[Henry Hotspur]

He’s just gonna double down on Plan A isn’t he? Ange has demonstrated and publicly said, it’s his way or no way at all.

Completely naive. From Wolves away (1-0 up after 90mins) this pig headedness has cost us points. I don’t expect him to publicly state that Spurs have tweaked the style but I expect to see it on the pitch.

Don’t we have analysts and assistant coaches? Cos it’s blatantly obvious that opposition coaches/managers are working us out, setting out a game plan and then executing that plan to their advantage - see Fulham, West Ham and Newcastle as recent examples (all done slightly differently and all exploiting slightly different areas of weakness).

Feel good factor largely evaporated on a match day, we all gather in the bars beforehand wondering how we’ll concede today (not if we will concede). Favourite - the ball in behind the vacant left back position.

 

[Shadydan]

View: https://twitter.com/TacticsJournal/status/1779468118735102038

 

[skywalker68]

Hit the nail on the head here. I think its already apparent that Ange isnt the sort of manager that is going to get a team playing way above the sum of its parts. Thats no slight, there are very few managers that can do that. He simply needs better players more suited to his system but we've been here before. Always comes back to the same question, do the club want success enough?

The answer is, the club are not driven enough regarding success.
I'm not saying they won't be happy with it, but rather they are not set up to want it enough.
Ange or any spurs manager, will not get a team to really challenge at the top, and even if they had a go go one year, it would be a one season wonder event.
The club is run to be, 4th at best, to around 6th or 7th, that's it anything below is failure, anything above is a one off.
Many supporters need to wake up, especially if they feel the club would become league champions.

 

[dustybin]

Fucking hell

People calling for his head already????

How quickly people turn on a manager - He's less than a year into his tenure and in his first ever Premier league season.

I'm not sure how anyone could expect to build something when the fanbase throw a hissy fit and 'demand change" every time we have a bad patch.

This thread is going to go bananas in the next 5 matches with Woolwich, Liverpool, Chelsea , Burnley and then City to play.

I've got a good idea of a 'change' we could implement - how about we stick with the manager and see what he can do over a couple of seasons....... You know, have a bit of faith?

He's had a mixed bag the last couple of months, but what other manager wouldn't? We're 5th in his first season, with a team that lost it's captain and star striker in the summer. Everyone would have been happy with that at the start of the season.

I doubt there's any other manager out there that would have us any higher than where we are now.

#trustinange

Fully agree. Just to add, I dislike our owners more than most and I always thought they were the primary reason why we never quite got over the line, but over time I’ve started to realise our fan base are a big problem.

We very rarely get behind the team when they need it. Only when we’re hammering someone and only then to mostly mock the other team/fans. Quick to turn on players and managers. I’m including myself in this but I honestly think we’re the most pathetic, spineless fan base in the league.

 

[Murphy]

Doesn’t scream anything like that to me.

You don't think making the same mistakes over and over again is indicative of not learning?

 

[Matt1882]

This is the thing. Even the wins have had plenty of shite moments in them.

We get called miserable cunts but without moments of brilliance it's just papering over the obvious cracks we've all been seeing for ages.

I don't really care what the stupid fucking happy clappers say anymore.
The excuses they make, the allowances they make and the fact they all turn a blind eye to how dull it is at times has made me question reality sometimes.

Ooh look, we got a 1 goal win over fucking Luton at home

We're gonna a win the league next year




Oh look, we got fucking battered by a totally depleted Newcastle team missing most of their starting eleven. 4 nil was kind.

It's fine, it's still better than last season.

 

[Airfixx]

Fully agree. Just to add, I dislike our owners more than most and I always thought they were the primary reason why we never quite got over the line, but over time I’ve started to realise our fan base are a big problem.

We very rarely get behind the team when they need it. Only when we’re hammering someone and only then to mostly mock the other team/fans. Quick to turn on players and managers. I’m including myself in this but I honestly think we’re the most pathetic, spineless fan base in the league.

Strong words; but I agree with the the general sentiment at play here.

 

[Shadydan]

Fully agree. Just to add, I dislike our owners more than most and I always thought they were the primary reason why we never quite got over the line, but over time I’ve started to realise our fan base are a big problem.

We very rarely get behind the team when they need it. Only when we’re hammering someone and only then to mostly mock the other team/fans. Quick to turn on players and managers. I’m including myself in this but I honestly think we’re the most pathetic, spineless fan base in the league.

Fucking hell wouldn't go that far lol but essentially you're right I've always said that the collective mindset of our fans is pretty pathetic, spineless I'd probably call it when the going gets tough.

 

[Airfixx]

People may not like rate Plan A; but the "no plan B" complaint is so trite and lazy........

Countless times this season we've turned games around thank to changes made by the manager.