Hillsborough tributes

[Smoked Salmon]

Ok, I'm curious to get some views on this and hopefully the question I'm raising won't offend anyone.

Some will remember the saga of Liverpudlian Ken Bigley and how the people of Liverpool were disgusted over the lack of attempts by the Blair government to try and negotiate his release when he was abducted by Al-Qaeda in Iraq. He was subsequently killed and the city of Liverpool went into overdrive with it's mourning. The level of grief being exhibited by the Liverpudlians famously lead a certain man named Boris to suggest that Liverpudlians sometimes revelled a little toomuch in their own self pity, for which he was marched up there to apologise.

Anyhow, I was just reading that at the forthcoming meeting of Man U and the Dippers there will be a tribute to Hillsborough before the game, inclouding the usual rendition of You'll Never Walk Alone, minutes silence and a ceremony involving Gerrard and others releasing 96 balloons. This is in addition to tributes at countless clubs during this past weekend's fixtures, mainly recognised with a YNWA rendition. This, however, does not acknowledge the anniversary, but rather is to commemorate the latest report on the disaster.

Now, these tributes aren't the only tributes to Hillsborough as people know. Each FA Cup semi-final there is a minute's silence. Each year at the anniversary weekend most clubs do a minute silence, with Liverpool usually doing some sort of ceremony. When it is a big anniversary such as 10 or 20 years, the tributes have been even more. THere's always a massive tribute display outside Anfield and so on. My question therefore is, when does this all become too much? When does a justified memorial cease to be just that and start fueling this notion that Liverpudlians love to wollow in their own misery?

Don't get me wrong, I cheer for the latest report and very much hope the Police will be fully investigated and there be prosecutions where appropriate. But, at the same time, I was reading the BBC News website earlier this week and the families were on TV and, just for a minute, the thought that I was sick of seeing and hearing about it crossed my mind. The result of that was a feeling of guilt that I didn't much like, and I know this wasn't the fault of the families who would like justice. But, as tradegies like 9/11 and 7/7 gradually fade into history I felt a resentment that I was being reminded of Hillsborough all of the time, as if Liverpool couldn't let go and therefore the restof us need to be reminded on a regular basis. Was that feeling justified? I don't know - which is why I felt guiilty afterwards. Having thought about it, all I could put it down to was that I had been oversaturating with tributes over the years that I had become tired of it all. That lead me onto the question above. So, is the questuion legitimate? Is there a danger that too much can fuel this idea of Liverpudlian victim status?

TLDR, yadda, yadda, yadda....

 

[Schoolboy'sOwnStuff]

The question is legitimate.

The answer is complex.

Does seem odd to have commemorations when it's not an anniversary, but I suppose they've just received closure and proof of innocence on the part of those who died.

Whilst we should never forget it, I think 23 years is long enough to let it drift into the bracket of remembrance rather than reconstruction. Time to stop grieving and move on to remembering their lost ones.

 

[AberdeenYid]

I'd be keen to see some memory of it, maybe as near to the anniversary as possible. Minutes silence at games that weekend kind of thing.

Anything more than that leaves me uneasy. Seems forced really. I'm certainly not sure the release of a report deserves the present outpouring of grief.

 

[sammyspurs]

Definately agree with the overdrive feeling. And by feeling this way doesnt mean that you are not glad that justice looks like it will be done. I really hope that it is, and the families can feel a little peace. We all do.

But its going too far, with every game. There was no need to play YNWA at Reading Spurs, and I felt a really awful cringe before the Everton Toon game with the He Aint Heavy song. No need to cheese it up, the events were tragic and awful enough, and dont you dont need to try and force tears in order to remember, and respect those who died.

 

[Smoked Salmon]

Well, I am certainly glad to see that I am not the only one that feels this way.

Just seems to me that if Liverpudlians want to rid themselves of the "victims" label, this probably isn't the way to go about it. Sammy mentions the Reading game. I think that's a very good example. The reason we aren't allowed to say anything is because there is a distasteful subculture with all these things that with insist on being offended just for the sake of it. But if you step back and think for a minute, the Reading game is an PL game, 23 and a half years after the event, outside of an anniversary, played between two clubs from southern England and including one unrelated club that had already performed a tribute only a few months ago in an FA Cup. To use the release of a report as a reason to perform yet another one is not only out and out excessive, but is borderline absurd. To me the reasoning behind it makes about as much sense as finding a camera shop in New York in the middle of January and observing a minute's silence for the death of Princess Diana because an enquiry in England released a report saying the paperazzi helped kill her.

 

[yiddo2786]

I think it's just lovely to see you two getting along.

 

[Kalyl]

I think it's just lovely to see you two getting along.

You'd think it was Hanukha/christmas/kwanza/eid (or any other religious holiday I can't remember the name of) :baeshock:

 

[Smoked Salmon]

I think it's just lovely to see you two getting along.

You'd think it was Hanukha/christmas/kwanza/eid (or any other religious holiday I can't remember the name of) :baeshock:

It is. It's Rosh Hashanah. Well, at least it was up until yesterday.

 

[sammyspurs]

I think it's just lovely to see you two getting along.

You'd think it was Hanukha/christmas/kwanza/eid (or any other religious holiday I can't remember the name of) :baeshock:

I just thought it was his time of the month and he was a bit emotional, and wanted to be near. My bird gets like that, so I just assumed...

:wub:

 

[bobby smith]

Smoked Salmon, there is a famous saying "Never judge a man untill you have walked a mile in his shoes" So i will pose a question to you.

Your there at Hillborough with you 15 year old son, crushing occurs and you lose sight of him, the terrifying events happen and the next time you see him is lying dead on an advertising hoarding. As terrifying as that all is there is worse to come.

The police, media and establishment blame YOU for your sons death, at a time when you should be greaving for the loss of your son, your angry at all the lies that are being told all around you.

The local Tory MP Irvine Patnick is feeding news agencys with blatant lies about the behaviour of liverpool fans, and he means you.
The allegations of fans urinating on police and making offensive sexual remarks about a dead girl are repeated in a letter he wrote to Lord Taylor, who was preparing to conduct his official inquiry.
The lying prick is later Knighted, how do YOU feel, would YOU we wallowing in your own self pity.

The Coroner Dr Stefan Popper arrives at the ground and orders blood alcohol tests on all those that have died, regardless of their youth. If thats not back enough the police are doing a criminal record check on YOUR son as it maybe usefull to them if they have to smear his name later.
At the full inquests in 1991, Dr Popper ruled that there was 'overwhelming' evidence that none of the fans could have been saved by 15 minutes after the match had kicked off.
As a result, evidence of failures in the emergency response after 3.15pm were not heard, and he returned verdicts of accidental death.

You find out that there is evidence that your son was alive at 4pm. In 1997 Dr Popper wrote that "It was neither here nor there, that fans fans breathed or had a heartbeat, at say 3.20, 3.30 or 4pm.

How would You feel,would you be wallowing in your own self pity?


David Duckenfield, the chief superintendent in charge of policing at Hillsborough on the day
The officer who lied about fans causing the crush
David Duckenfield, the chief superintendent in charge of policing at Hillsborough on the day, has been vilified in Liverpool for lying that fans forced their way through an exit gate, causing the crush, when in fact he had ordered that it be opened.
He was allowed to retire on a full pension in 1991 on the grounds that he was suffering from severe depression and post-traumatic stress disorder.

How would you feel?

I belive your a Lawyer SS, How do you feel about senior SYP having meetings days after the event with rank and file officers telling them all to sing from the same song book.
Whats your opinion on over 116 altered police statements, all done to show the police in a better light, and to spread misinformation about liverpool fans.

How would you feel that all the police corruption came out 14 years ago and the Crown prosecution ignored it and did nothing. How would you feel with the knowledge that the liverpool law society refused requests from the independant panel to release documents.
And what do you feel about the goverment that can lock up documents that could help your case for 30 years.

If all this happened to YOU Smocked Salmon, would you still be writing this offensive post?

 

[sammyspurs]

How does any of that relate to thinking that there are too many tributes taking place?

 

[Smoked Salmon]

Smoked Salmon, there is a famous saying "Never judge a man untill you have walked a mile in his shoes" So i will pose a question to you.

Your there at Hillborough with you 15 year old son, crushing occurs and you lose sight of him, the terrifying events happen and the next time you see him is lying dead on an advertising hoarding. As terrifying as that all is there is worse to come.

The police, media and establishment blame YOU for your sons death, at a time when you should be greaving for the loss of your son, your angry at all the lies that are being told all around you.

The local Tory MP Irvine Patnick is feeding news agencys with blatant lies about the behaviour of liverpool fans, and he means you.
The allegations of fans urinating on police and making offensive sexual remarks about a dead girl are repeated in a letter he wrote to Lord Taylor, who was preparing to conduct his official inquiry.
The lying prick is later Knighted, how do YOU feel, would YOU we wallowing in your own self pity.

The Coroner Dr Stefan Popper arrives at the ground and orders blood alcohol tests on all those that have died, regardless of their youth. If thats not back enough the police are doing a criminal record check on YOUR son as it maybe usefull to them if they have to smear his name later.
At the full inquests in 1991, Dr Popper ruled that there was 'overwhelming' evidence that none of the fans could have been saved by 15 minutes after the match had kicked off.
As a result, evidence of failures in the emergency response after 3.15pm were not heard, and he returned verdicts of accidental death.

You find out that there is evidence that your son was alive at 4pm. In 1997 Dr Popper wrote that "It was neither here nor there, that fans fans breathed or had a heartbeat, at say 3.20, 3.30 or 4pm.

How would You feel,would you be wallowing in your own self pity?


David Duckenfield, the chief superintendent in charge of policing at Hillsborough on the day
The officer who lied about fans causing the crush
David Duckenfield, the chief superintendent in charge of policing at Hillsborough on the day, has been vilified in Liverpool for lying that fans forced their way through an exit gate, causing the crush, when in fact he had ordered that it be opened.
He was allowed to retire on a full pension in 1991 on the grounds that he was suffering from severe depression and post-traumatic stress disorder.

How would you feel?

I belive your a Lawyer SS, How do you feel about senior SYP having meetings days after the event with rank and file officers telling them all to sing from the same song book.
Whats your opinion on over 116 altered police statements, all done to show the police in a better light, and to spread misinformation about liverpool fans.

How would you feel that all the police corruption came out 14 years ago and the Crown prosecution ignored it and did nothing. How would you feel with the knowledge that the liverpool law society refused requests from the independant panel to release documents.
And what do you feel about the goverment that can lock up documents that could help your case for 30 years.

If all this happened to YOU Smocked Salmon, would you still be writing this offensive post?

Someone has reading comprehension I think. This is the comment I made about the actual event....

Don't get me wrong, I cheer for the latest report and very much hope the Police will be fully investigated and there be prosecutions where appropriate.

Perhaps you could tell me what of offensive about that sentence?

The discussion was about the level of tributes and memorials, and the appropriateness of some of them. It questions whether this may fuel the idea that there is a culture of victim status amongst Liverpudlians. It does not directly accuse Liverpudlians of such a staus, nor does it seek to debate the events themselves or the unacceptable behaviour of the Police, which everyone can agree should be investigated and prosecuted as appropriate just as I said above.

I am no stranger to grief and memorials. I am a family member of one of the British 9/11 victims. But I am also able to seperate the event from a rational conversation about what level of tributes and memorials is appropriate and what may be potentially damanging to the memory of the victims and their families. If you want to get offended for the sake of it, and from a standpoint of irrationality, or simply not reading what has been posted, that that is you problem and yours alone. It is, perhaps, ironic that I said above that some people will try and prevent rational discussion because they will just seek to be offended, and then you immediately come in and display such behaviour with a post that show that you either haven't properly read any of the comments above, or have not understood them.

 

[bobby smith]

Smoked Salmon, if i wrote a similar post to yours but subsituted liverpool fans for Jews and Hillsborough for Holocaust you would be over me like a ton of bricks.

You clearly stated you feel resentment of being reminded of Hillsborough all the time. Only last week the full truth was exposed! You bang on about liverpudlian victim status, they are the victims, not only in having 96 dead, but they are the victims of one of the biggest cover ups in British history, and the stink goes right to the top.
They have been villified for the past 23 years over a pack of fucking lies.

 

[pjohn5]

i have no problem with liverpudlians honoring the victims of Hillsboro or mourning that guy in Iraq.

I do how ever have problem with their hypocrisy, it took them 25 years to put a memorial of Heysel outside anfield, and they still sing songs about Munich

 

[Smoked Salmon]

Smoked Salmon, if i wrote a similar post to yours but subsituted liverpool fans for Jews and Hillsborough for Holocaust you would be over me like a ton of bricks.

You clearly stated you feel resentment of being reminded of Hillsborough all the time. Only last week the full truth was exposed! You bang on about liverpudlian victim status, they are the victims, not only in having 96 dead, but they are the victims of one of the biggest cover ups in British history, and the stink goes right to the top.
They have been villified for the past 23 years over a pack of fucking lies.

What on earth are you talking about? If you want to have a discussion about the extent of Holocaust memorials then i will happily do so without any drama or offence.

I am not "banging on about victim status". There is a vast difference between accusing someone of that and acknowledging that other people out there have made such accusations, particularly when you are looking to debate what might fuel such hurtful accusations and work against the victims and their families.

As for resentment, I do not resent being reminded of Hillsborough. My comment were immediately followed by an expression of the guilt that caused and the fact that such resentment was not the fault of the victims or their families. I'll say that again for you so that it sinks in. I immediately expressed guilt and said that it was not the fault of the victims or their families.

The question I posed with whether or not too many memorials was counter productive to the victims and their families, and Liverpudlians in general. What is the motivation behind such a question? Think about it. Who stands to lose if the public become so oversaturrated with memorials and tributes that people ultimately lose interest in the event, but, worse still, it works against those fighting for justice? Who loses? I don't. You don't. Nobody who is tired of memorials does. The only people who lose are the families. Debating this question of counter-productive tributes is all the opening post sought to do and it is a question that can ultimately only be in the interest of the victims and their families.

So that leaves you with one of two possibilities. Either you believe I am having a legitmate debate about an issue with the potential to backfire on the familes, or you think I am a selfish arsehole who is more interested in myself and just having a whinge. Which do you think it is?

 

[sammyspurs]

Smoked Salmon, if i wrote a similar post to yours but subsituted liverpool fans for Jews and Hillsborough for Holocaust you would be over me like a ton of bricks.

You clearly stated you feel resentment of being reminded of Hillsborough all the time. Only last week the full truth was exposed! You bang on about liverpudlian victim status, they are the victims, not only in having 96 dead, but they are the victims of one of the biggest cover ups in British history, and the stink goes right to the top.
They have been villified for the past 23 years over a pack of fucking lies.

He has justified his stance, and I still dont see what anything you have written has to do with thinking there are too many tributes going on at the moment.

We all know the story, and we all think its horrific.

The victims are the dead and their family. Not every single person that has, or will be born in Liverpool since 1989 for all eternity.

Jews and The Holocaust? Your having a fucking laugh.

 

[AberdeenYid]

Smoked Salmon, there is a famous saying "Never judge a man untill you have walked a mile in his shoes" So i will pose a question to you.

Your there at Hillborough with you 15 year old son, crushing occurs and you lose sight of him, the terrifying events happen and the next time you see him is lying dead on an advertising hoarding. As terrifying as that all is there is worse to come.

The police, media and establishment blame YOU for your sons death, at a time when you should be greaving for the loss of your son, your angry at all the lies that are being told all around you.

The local Tory MP Irvine Patnick is feeding news agencys with blatant lies about the behaviour of liverpool fans, and he means you.
The allegations of fans urinating on police and making offensive sexual remarks about a dead girl are repeated in a letter he wrote to Lord Taylor, who was preparing to conduct his official inquiry.
The lying prick is later Knighted, how do YOU feel, would YOU we wallowing in your own self pity.

The Coroner Dr Stefan Popper arrives at the ground and orders blood alcohol tests on all those that have died, regardless of their youth. If thats not back enough the police are doing a criminal record check on YOUR son as it maybe usefull to them if they have to smear his name later.
At the full inquests in 1991, Dr Popper ruled that there was 'overwhelming' evidence that none of the fans could have been saved by 15 minutes after the match had kicked off.
As a result, evidence of failures in the emergency response after 3.15pm were not heard, and he returned verdicts of accidental death.

You find out that there is evidence that your son was alive at 4pm. In 1997 Dr Popper wrote that "It was neither here nor there, that fans fans breathed or had a heartbeat, at say 3.20, 3.30 or 4pm.

How would You feel,would you be wallowing in your own self pity?


David Duckenfield, the chief superintendent in charge of policing at Hillsborough on the day
The officer who lied about fans causing the crush
David Duckenfield, the chief superintendent in charge of policing at Hillsborough on the day, has been vilified in Liverpool for lying that fans forced their way through an exit gate, causing the crush, when in fact he had ordered that it be opened.
He was allowed to retire on a full pension in 1991 on the grounds that he was suffering from severe depression and post-traumatic stress disorder.

How would you feel?

I belive your a Lawyer SS, How do you feel about senior SYP having meetings days after the event with rank and file officers telling them all to sing from the same song book.
Whats your opinion on over 116 altered police statements, all done to show the police in a better light, and to spread misinformation about liverpool fans.

How would you feel that all the police corruption came out 14 years ago and the Crown prosecution ignored it and did nothing. How would you feel with the knowledge that the liverpool law society refused requests from the independant panel to release documents.
And what do you feel about the goverment that can lock up documents that could help your case for 30 years.

If all this happened to YOU Smocked Salmon, would you still be writing this offensive post?

If all that happened to me, I'd be fucking raging. I'd be weeping, I'd forever mourn my child. I'd do all this in my own private way.

However, it didn't happen to me and whilst I have sympathy with the families and victims and whilst I hope they get the justice they fully deserve, I'm not convinced public showings of grief 25 years later serves any purpose in the grieving process.

 

[Éperons]

Jews and The Holocaust? Your having a fucking laugh.

In a perverse way, it is appropriate to bring it up, because there's concern about "Holocaust fatigue"—the idea that the specific horror of the event, through it repeated commemoration (and dramatisation in film). September 11 fatigue also set in rather quickly among my friends and colleagues, largely since it was so cynically exploited to further other ends (endless war, erosion of civil liberties, etc.). There's a storage centre visible off the interstate just south of Downtown Chicago that has in huge letters something like "DECEMBER 7, 1941 - SEPTEMBER 11, 2001 WE WILL NEVER FORGET". I swore I'd never do business with the place.

And I think that's related to what Smoked Salmon is getting at. Hillsborough moves from being a memory and a site of mourning to a site of melancholia (see Freud for the difference). And as an object of melancholia, it remains forever in our faces and forever an opportunity for cynical exploitation by both sides.

I was rather startled by the response to the recent report, actually. I mean, the Taylor Report had already exonerated the fans of any wrongdoing and laid the blame squarely at the feet of the police. Within months of the event, then, people knew (and the government confirmed) that the Sun had published lies.

What the recent report added, imo, was changing the role of the police from incompetent bumblers to incompetent and perhaps criminally corrupt bumblers and manslaughterers. That's a very important distinction, and I hope prosecutions follow, but I'm not sure how "police changed their reports" provides any actual new emotional opportunities for closure. We already knew the fans were innocent, after all! Furthermore, the revelations that lives could have been saved seems rather like tearing perhaps closed wounds right back open.

Anyway, this is rather all over the place, but I'm distracted by the shitshow Barça is putting on. Never mind, there's my captain with a goal.

 

[sammyspurs]

Jews and The Holocaust? Your having a fucking laugh.

In a perverse way, it is appropriate to bring it up, because there's concern about "Holocaust fatigue"—the idea that the specific horror of the event, through it repeated commemoration (and dramatisation in film).

I think The Holocaust is something the world should never forget ever. And I mean people from every country. It is an atrocity that challenges what the human race is actually capable of under the wrong circumstances.

A regime tried to exterminate a people.

Compare that to Hillsborough all you want.

 

[NO1JIB]

think me and bobby smith might be the only 2 old goats old enough to have been there in 81. not knocking those who are too young to have been there, but it was fucking bad and you wouldnt have encountered anything like it in your football going lives, thank fuck for that.