Hillsborough tributes

[Smoked Salmon]

To Eperons:

I follow it, particularly the part regarding the idea of tribute fatigue. That's basically what I have been talking about.

The way I see it, a tribute should be just that, a tribute. As soon as it begins to have a negative effect or ceases to play a role in grief then it's purpose has changed. The essentially the gist of what I am debating.

It's interesting that you mention the 9/11 sign. Being as I experienced a couple of the memorials myself, iI noticed that in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 and the years that follow there seemed to be something that I can only describe as "grief tourism". It seemed, particularly in some parts of America, that it wasn't somuch the families of the dead, or many New Yorkers, but rather others who seemd to want to capitalise on the grief for reasons of their own, some for political reasons, others to feel self worthy, some to use it as an excuse for overt displays of patriotism and so on. Whatever their motivation, there was a distinct sense of those involving themselves in 9/11 memorials were not doing so out of their own personal grief or their sympathy towards the victims or their loved ones. It was at that point that I, for one, felt detached from a lot of it, and I am not the only one to have felt that way.

 

[Smoked Salmon]

think me and bobby smith might be the only 2 old goats old enough to have been there in 81. not knocking those who are too young to have been there, but it was fucking bad and you wouldnt have encountered anything like it in your football going lives, thank fuck for that.

Too young to have physically been there does not mean we are children who cannot have a mature discussion about it, or are automatically wrong in what we are saying. Most of the people in this thread are well into their 30s or approaching 40. We aren't 16 year olds.

 

[Smoked Salmon]

Jews and The Holocaust? Your having a fucking laugh.

In a perverse way, it is appropriate to bring it up, because there's concern about "Holocaust fatigue"—the idea that the specific horror of the event, through it repeated commemoration (and dramatisation in film).

I think The Holocaust is something the world should never forget ever. And I mean people from every country. It is an atrocity that challenges what the human race is actually capable of under the wrong circumstances.

A regime tried to exterminate a people.

Compare that to Hillsborough all you want.

Well, Eperons is not actually comparing the events. Hillborough was 96 people and they were not intentionally murdered. So, from that point of view, I agree with you that the two are simply not on teh same playing field. The Holocaust literally changed the face of the planet.

But in terms of grief and how long it should go on for, I certainly see where Eperons is coming from in his comparison. I'm not sure Bobby Smith does though......

 

[NO1JIB]

think me and bobby smith might be the only 2 old goats old enough to have been there in 81. not knocking those who are too young to have been there, but it was fucking bad and you wouldnt have encountered anything like it in your football going lives, thank fuck for that.

Too young to have physically been there does not mean we are children who cannot have a mature discussion about it, or are automatically wrong in what we are saying. Most of the people in this thread are well into their 30s or approaching 40. We aren't 16 year olds.

discuss away then, but i could have been crushed to death that day and my parents would have been told it was spurs fans fault.
a 16 year old can have a mature discussion about it, but he or she cant know what it was like to nearly die in a crush at a football match and i hope he or she never finds out.
im not saying your 'automatically wrong' im just saying, in my opinion, you are.

 

[Éperons]

I think The Holocaust is something the world should never forget ever. And I mean people from every country. It is an atrocity that challenges what the human race is actually capable of under the wrong circumstances.

We're in no way in disagreement on this.

It seemed, particularly in some parts of America, that it wasn't somuch the families of the dead, or many New Yorkers, but rather others who seemd to want to capitalise on the grief for reasons of their own, some for political reasons, others to feel self worthy, some to use it as an excuse for overt displays of patriotism and so on.

This is exactly right, and it's a function of the political rhetoric that changed the events from a terrorist attack to an invasion/act of war, around which the entire US had to rally. The actual victims, etc., and their commemoration was lost in the nationwide bloodlust fueled by vengeance.

The same kind of people whose politics involved sneering at New York City because of its racial diversity, urban poverty, Jewish population, and Democratic Party politics suddenly became the biggest champions of the City, but only to the extent of identifying with the first responders (FDNY), as long as it provided an opportunity to get their war on (or, well, at least to send precisely those poor, racially diverse young men that NYC is full of off to war). It was (and continues to be) sickening.

I'm not sure if there's been quite as much opportunity for cynical exploitation regarding Hillsborough (except in how the government used it to usher in football's middle-class revolution by abolishing terraces), but I do think that it's ruined the possibility of a nuanced approach to Heysel, weirdly enough.

 

[Smoked Salmon]

im not saying your 'automatically wrong' im just saying, in my opinion, you are.

Wrong on what? I haven't offered an opinion, I posed a question. Have you actually read the OP?

 

[sammyspurs]

Yeah I get what Ep was saying, but the minute you bring up the Holocaust, a comparison is made. If you compare the tribute process of both things, then you have to compare the events..

 

[Éperons]

If you compare the tribute process of both things, then you have to compare the events..

Melancholia is a pathology that can arise from a relationship to any kind of object. A person can get melancholic over a broken fingernail, and that doesn't mean that the pathology isn't real.

So imo the events themselves aren't as important (within the frame of this discussion) as the response to them is. And so I think it's absolutely fair to compare their commemorations without making even an implicit comparison about the objects themselves.

Otherwise, the Holocaust, as the ne plus ultra crime against humanity, would become rather literally unspeakable, since in doing so we would implicitly try to contextualise and provide avenues of comparison for it.

 

[NO1JIB]

im not saying your 'automatically wrong' im just saying, in my opinion, you are.

Wrong on what? I haven't offered an opinion, I posed a question. Have you actually read the OP?

your question posed, appeared to me, to have an angle that you'd had enough of the pro liverpool fans sentiments regarding tributes.
theres plenty of pro and agin sentiment about at the moment, i think they were treated like shit for years and i get a bit pissed off that because they didnt just take it, they are somehow at fault for this. good on them for saying bollox to the corrupt cunts who run this country, someone has too and us londoners wont, not till we're fucked over as badly.
[still count myself a londoner even if i live in the woods now]

 

[Smoked Salmon]

your question posed, appeared to me, to have an angle that you'd had enough of the pro liverpool fans sentiments regarding tributes.

That's not what I said. Just like Bobby Smith you aren't bothering to read what has been posted. I asked the question of how many tributes does it take before it generates public resentment and becomes counter productive for the families. There isn't even a hint of any issue with the tributes because they are "pro Liverpool".

theres plenty of pro and agin sentiment about at the moment, i think they were treated like shit for years and i get a bit pissed off that because they didnt just take it, they are somehow at fault for this. good on them for saying bollox to the corrupt cunts who run this country, someone has too and us londoners wont, not till we're fucked over as badly.
[still count myself a londoner even if i live in the woods now]

Absolutely nobody in this thread has laid any shread of blame whatsoever at the feet of the victims, their families or Liverpool fans in general. It's disingenuous to suggest otherwise.

 

[sammyspurs]

So imo the events themselves aren't as important (within the frame of this discussion) as the response to them is. And so I think it's absolutely fair to compare their commemorations without making even an implicit comparison about the objects themselves.

I cant really see that idea Im afraid. Thats a bit like saying there can never be an over reaction to something...

If Hillsborough was remembered world wide on the same level as The Holocaust, I think you would also have to compare the events. It gives perspective.

 

[NO1JIB]

ok, i'll answer the question, they can have as many tributes as they like, and if anyone gets pissed off about people remembering their dead son, brothers , lovers etc, they can fuck off, their opinions are not relevent.
whilst im not certain the holocaust comparison should be made, if anyone said to me they've had enough hearing about it, i'd tell them to fuck off, history teaches us some hard lessons, but we'd better learn them or we'll repeat them.



mrs wants the pc now, be back on tomorrow to continue.

 

[sammyspurs]

i think they were treated like shit for years and i get a bit pissed off that because they didnt just take it, they are somehow at fault for this.

What you and bobby smith are missing, is that no one disagrees with that....I think it was a disgrace, I think it was tragic, Im delighted they will get justice, I hope there are criminal charges brought, I think they are brave and honourable in their fight and I found the report findings shocking and despicable.

I also, quite simply, dont think there needs to be nationwide memorials at every ground for the findings of a report.

The anniversary and FA Cup semi is fine.

 

[Smoked Salmon]

Yeah I get what Ep was saying, but the minute you bring up the Holocaust, a comparison is made. If you compare the tribute process of both things, then you have to compare the events..

I'm not so sure you do. Grief, ultimately, is an individual thing. I don't think the grief of six million family members is somehow worse than the grief of a hundred family members just because the event is greater in scale or nastier. So if the discussion is simply about grief and tributes relative to that grief then surely the priciples are the same, even if the events themselves are entirely different?

Now, if we were going to have a discussion about the potential impact of each event on society and what the means for certain communities outside of the victims' families (such as the international Jewish community or Liverpudlians and Liverpool fans as a whole), then I would absolutely agree that the variables change and, on a comparison, the Holocaust would be considered a much more significant event.

 

[Smoked Salmon]

ok, i'll answer the question, they can have as many tributes as they like, and if anyone gets pissed off about people remembering their dead son, brothers , lovers etc, they can fuck off, their opinions are not relevent.

You haven't answered the question though. The question was, what if the amount of tributes breed public resentment, which, in turn, ultimately harms the families in their quest for recognition and justice? "They can fuck off" isn't an answer or a solution. If that harm occurs, telling people to fuck off over and over again won't change the public mood or any harm that mood may cause to the families and their objective.

It is, ultimately, a speculative question, because, at present, we haven't gotten to the stage where there is a particular issue with the tributes (although it is a subject being substantially discussed online). Speculating on the potential for counter-productivity isn't the same as saying "these Liverpudlians have whinged enough now, they should STFU".

 

[sammyspurs]

Yeah I get what Ep was saying, but the minute you bring up the Holocaust, a comparison is made. If you compare the tribute process of both things, then you have to compare the events..

I'm not so sure you do. Grief, ultimately, is an individual thing. I don't think the grief of six million family members is somehow worse than the grief of a hundred family members just because the event is greater in scale or nastier. So if the discussion is simply about grief and tributes relative to that grief then surely the priciples are the same, even if the events themselves are entirely different?

Now, if we were going to have a discussion about the potential impact of each event on society and what the means for certain communities outside of the victims' families (such as the international Jewish community or Liverpudlians and Liverpool fans as a whole), then I would absolutely agree that the variables change and, on a comparison, the Holocaust would be considered a much more significant event.

I dont think of the grief of individual families when I think of the Holocaust. I think of the darkest depths of human nature, and a dangerous place that we are capable of going.

Thats why I will never get sick of hearing about what the Nazis did and tried to do. I think the human race owes itself never to forget. I see the grief as insignificant of some level (as strange as that sounds) because what they did was so surreal its too difficult to actually comprehend. Maybe if I had known a survivor it would be different.

Im scratching my head at how something can be brought up, but its claimed its not being compared, or only part of it is.

 

[NO1JIB]

i think they were treated like shit for years and i get a bit pissed off that because they didnt just take it, they are somehow at fault for this.

What you and bobby smith are missing, is that no one disagrees with that....I think it was a disgrace, I think it was tragic, Im delighted they will get justice, I hope there are criminal charges brought, I think they are brave and honourable in their fight and I found the report findings shocking and despicable.

I also, quite simply, dont think there needs to be nationwide memorials at every ground for the findings of a report.

The anniversary and FA Cup semi is fine.

fair nuff, good point on the memorials. what they do up there is up to them, i dont think we'll see many tributes from now on, i just hope that we football fans can move on from this, stop the sick chants and perhaps go to games purely to support our team, not to hate the other lot.
i've changed over the years and what i find to be true is that most football fans are very similar, we should embrace that common ground.

i reserve the right to lose it and call certain opposing fans cunts though, im like that.

[

 

[NO1JIB]

ok, i'll answer the question, they can have as many tributes as they like, and if anyone gets pissed off about people remembering their dead son, brothers , lovers etc, they can fuck off, their opinions are not relevent.

You haven't answered the question though. The question was, what if the amount of tributes breed public resentment, which, in turn, ultimately harms the families in their quest for recognition and justice? "They can fuck off" isn't an answer or a solution. If that harm occurs, telling people to fuck off over and over again won't change the public mood or any harm that mood may cause to the families and their objective.

It is, ultimately, a speculative question, because, at present, we haven't gotten to the stage where there is a particular issue with the tributes (although it is a subject being substantially discussed online). Speculating on the potential for counter-productivity isn't the same as saying "these Liverpudlians have whinged enough now, they should STFU".

it might breed public resentment, because there are members of the public who are cunts. and they can fuck off.
there is no answer to your question, is there ? it might, it might not, it might snowball into something whereby the public gain from finding out how corrupt the country is and doing something about it, i dont expect any help from the media govt or the police cos they are the lying cunts who are corrupt.
people watch jeremy kyle and the x factor, so im not hopeful tbh, but it would be nice.



i really have to go now, im getting evils . laters.

 

[Kris]

People are still very raw about what happened that day.
They are mourning in there own way, whether that be releasing balloons or lighting candles at memorials.
The way I see it you can join in with them, or just politely ignore them.

I personally stand in silence if I'm at a football game and I did sign petitions for the release of information, but I think it's time for the media to stop blasting it in our faces, UNLESS, there is any NEW information on the case, not another journalists opinions on the matter, not stories from people at the time.
Just my opinion fellas.

 

[S.L.R]

Sorry, haven't enough of the thread really, but part of Ramsingh's comment just got me - the media's focus on this. Specifically the tabloid focus.

Lest we forget these fucking scum papers