listen to him talking about just that in this radio interview he did during that whole fiasco ...
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listen to him talking about just that in this radio interview he did during that whole fiasco ...
Why Tottenham supporters chant the Y word, and why I do not mind
Why Tottenham supporters chant the Y word, and why I do not mind
david aaronovitch
Quite a few threads on this makes it confusing to know where to put new stuff. Anyway, for what I think is the very first time a piece written in the media that actually puts out the Spurs fans case for using the term without any snide or misinformed nonsense:
Three weeks ago, up in the stratospheric heights of Barcelona’s Nou Camp stadium, locked in behind plastic screens and wire netting, 4,000 Tottenham fans greeted the news of the team’s unlikely qualification to the next round of the Champions League with their favourite song. It goes like this:
We sang it in France,
We sang it in Spain,
We sing in the sun and we sing in the rain,
They tried to stop us, but look what it did,
Cos the thing I love most is being a Yid.
Being a Yid, being a Yid,
The thing I love most is being a Yid.
“Yid” is the derogatory term that the British far right has traditionally used for Jews. In the 1930s Oswald Mosley’s Blackshirts would chant “the Yids, the Yids, we’ve got to get rid of the Yids”. And because Spurs had been seen as the team with most Jewish supporters going back to the Twenties, when in the 1960s and 1970s the far right infiltrated some of the hooligan groups associated with football supporters, the word “Yid” began to be part of the abuse hurled at Spurs fans.
In their book A People’s History Of Tottenham Hotspur Football Club, Martin Cloake and Alan Fisher write that “the chant ‘does your rabbi know you’re here?’ was mild and amusing compared with the rest. ‘I’ve never felt more like gassing the Jews . . .’, ‘one man went to gas, went to gas a yiddo . . .’, ‘Spurs are on their way to Auschwitz, Hitler’s gonna gas ’em again . . .’”
In my experience of the period (and since) the worst fans for this kind of abuse belonged to Chelsea and West Ham United. Their hooligans had, I believe, the most developed far right links.
But in this instance Spurs fans reacted in a gloriously imaginative way. They took over the word. They owned it and they started calling themselves “Yiddos”. In many ways it was an “I am Spartacus” act of solidarity with Jewish fans.
The Barcelona song itself dates from 2013, the last time that, in an effort to suppress antisemitic taunts from rival fans, the attempt was made to coerce Spurs fans from their self-identification. The logic was that if Spurs fans stopped calling themselves Yids, then rival fans would drop the racism.
Some of my best friends are Chelsea-supporting Jews. They’ve told me what it’s like to have your own people, inches away from you, yelling about gassing Jews. And galling to feel that one reason it is happening is because Spurs fans, mainly non-Jews, are identifying as “Yids”. I too would be upset.
Maybe one day all this will fade away. But as the authorities discovered in 2013, when attempts at prosecuting Spurs fans for using the Y-word failed, context is everything. A word or a phrase is only abuse if you’re using it to abuse. Still, it’s an unlovely word and hopefully if rival fans were dissuaded from antisemitism for a period of years, its defiant but non-abusive use would fade into history. Till then, however, they’ll sing it in France, and they’ll sing it in Spain . . .
Why Tottenham supporters chant the Y word, and why I do not mind
david aaronovitch
Quite a few threads on this makes it confusing to know where to put new stuff. Anyway, for what I think is the very first time a piece written in the media that actually puts out the Spurs fans case for using the term without any snide or misinformed nonsense:
Three weeks ago, up in the stratospheric heights of Barcelona’s Nou Camp stadium, locked in behind plastic screens and wire netting, 4,000 Tottenham fans greeted the news of the team’s unlikely qualification to the next round of the Champions League with their favourite song. It goes like this:
We sang it in France,
We sang it in Spain,
We sing in the sun and we sing in the rain,
They tried to stop us, but look what it did,
Cos the thing I love most is being a Yid.
Being a Yid, being a Yid,
The thing I love most is being a Yid.
“Yid” is the derogatory term that the British far right has traditionally used for Jews. In the 1930s Oswald Mosley’s Blackshirts would chant “the Yids, the Yids, we’ve got to get rid of the Yids”. And because Spurs had been seen as the team with most Jewish supporters going back to the Twenties, when in the 1960s and 1970s the far right infiltrated some of the hooligan groups associated with football supporters, the word “Yid” began to be part of the abuse hurled at Spurs fans.
In their book A People’s History Of Tottenham Hotspur Football Club, Martin Cloake and Alan Fisher write that “the chant ‘does your rabbi know you’re here?’ was mild and amusing compared with the rest. ‘I’ve never felt more like gassing the Jews . . .’, ‘one man went to gas, went to gas a yiddo . . .’, ‘Spurs are on their way to Auschwitz, Hitler’s gonna gas ’em again . . .’”
In my experience of the period (and since) the worst fans for this kind of abuse belonged to Chelsea and West Ham United. Their hooligans had, I believe, the most developed far right links.
But in this instance Spurs fans reacted in a gloriously imaginative way. They took over the word. They owned it and they started calling themselves “Yiddos”. In many ways it was an “I am Spartacus” act of solidarity with Jewish fans.
The Barcelona song itself dates from 2013, the last time that, in an effort to suppress antisemitic taunts from rival fans, the attempt was made to coerce Spurs fans from their self-identification. The logic was that if Spurs fans stopped calling themselves Yids, then rival fans would drop the racism.
Some of my best friends are Chelsea-supporting Jews. They’ve told me what it’s like to have your own people, inches away from you, yelling about gassing Jews. And galling to feel that one reason it is happening is because Spurs fans, mainly non-Jews, are identifying as “Yids”. I too would be upset.
Maybe one day all this will fade away. But as the authorities discovered in 2013, when attempts at prosecuting Spurs fans for using the Y-word failed, context is everything. A word or a phrase is only abuse if you’re using it to abuse. Still, it’s an unlovely word and hopefully if rival fans were dissuaded from antisemitism for a period of years, its defiant but non-abusive use would fade into history. Till then, however, they’ll sing it in France, and they’ll sing it in Spain . . .
I still don't get what's unlovely about it... European Jews have been speaking Yiddish for nigh on 100 years... and no one ever said it was unlovely then...
I genuinely think the point is being missed every time this subject rears its' head....
When will people realise that it's not the word... it's never been the word...
IT'S ALWAYS BEEN THE COCK-A-DOODY CONTEXT!
And I still maintain (and always will) that; YOU FUCKING DIRTY JEW is wayyyyy more offensive than The thing I love most is being a YID!
Very well put.
Shame its in The Times where subscription only makes it pointless sharing it.
I wonder how long it is before Baddiel starts sticking his oar in this time? As one of those Chelsea supporting Jews mentioned above.
Doesn't even work in the playground (cruel, nasty places)... Pacifist bullshit IMO.
I feel putting the onus of strength on those that are likely seen as a weak target to begin with is little better than turning a blind eye.
Cos it's a Chelsea fan stirring up shit; not genuine concern over anti-semetism.
Piece of shit.
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The only people who I think can truly determine this are the Jewish. I like this article because it's written from the point of view of a Jewish Spurs fan. I don't think there is a strong enough and especially a united Jewish voice coming out from the fanbase who are in favour or not (I know both). The thing that is united is the fanbase but seeing as the fanbase is overwhelmingly non-Jewish the opposing voices will always exist, either genuine racists and anti-semites hiding behind this convenience or those uneducated and nieve.
One of the most important things anyone can do in life is to walk in someone else's shoes. I'm not religious. I'm a white Anglo Saxon male (have distant Italian and Spanish descendants but you wouldn't know to look at me or my immediate family) but being a Spurs fan has given me a unique viewpoint on what it's like to feel racism/anti-semitism. Spurs is part of my identity which now goes hand in hand with a Jewish identity (I reiterate I'm not religious, in fact, I hate religion, all of it from Christianity to Judaism to Muslum. I don't hate those that are religious just hate religions) and I feel anger when anti-semitic chants are directed towards us/me. (My wife is black, my kids are mix-race and my grandkids are black, so I see it as no different when I see racism that comes towards them, I walk in their shoes every single day too).
Whilst I am proud to fight the good fight, both as a Spurs fan and as a Husband, Father and Grandfather I am still guided by those that are the intended target and how they actually feel. I think this is a tad harder when we are talking about religion as racism as it is not based on a physical appearance. By way of example I sat next to a lovely Jewish fella for many years, he absolutely hated Spurs fans signing "yids". What am I now meant to do? I chose not to ever sing or say that word whilst I was sat next to him, he's Jewish and I'm not, what else can I do but respect the wishes of a Jewish person, especially if he was offended by it. Equally, I've sat next to other Jews who belt it out with such conviction that it means everything to them, they feel empowered and humbled by Spurs fans/me signing it side by side, I've had long conversations with them and they don't feel marginalised and in return I felt more brotherhood singing "yid" alongside them, it gave it more relevance and made it more than just a chant, it gave it a cause.
If my memory serves me well you are Jewish(??), if that's correct it stands to reason that as a non-jew myself I'll always take your guidance and your opinion first, it helps shape mine, but on this very forum
Smoked Salmon
(R.I.P) was one of those completely opposed to it and if he were still alive I'm in no doubt he will be on here now sharing his views which differed to yours.TDLR: Need more Jewish Spurs fans to take up a voice. This article should be the first of many for that very reason.
Well as a mere fact you will not find a Jewish consensus on the matter, and I see no reason some well connected fuck from from Hendon will decide for everyoneThe only people who I think can truly determine this are the Jewish. I like this article because it's written from the point of view of a Jewish Spurs fan. I don't think there is a strong enough and especially a united Jewish voice coming out from the fanbase who are in favour or not (I know both). The thing that is united is the fanbase but seeing as the fanbase is overwhelmingly non-Jewish the opposing voices will always exist, either genuine racists and anti-semites hiding behind this convenience or those uneducated and nieve.
One of the most important things anyone can do in life is to walk in someone else's shoes. I'm not religious. I'm a white Anglo Saxon male (have distant Italian and Spanish descendants but you wouldn't know to look at me or my immediate family) but being a Spurs fan has given me a unique viewpoint on what it's like to feel racism/anti-semitism. Spurs is part of my identity which now goes hand in hand with a Jewish identity (I reiterate I'm not religious, in fact, I hate religion, all of it from Christianity to Judaism to Muslum. I don't hate those that are religious just hate religions) and I feel anger when anti-semitic chants are directed towards us/me. (My wife is black, my kids are mix-race and my grandkids are black, so I see it as no different when I see racism that comes towards them, I walk in their shoes every single day too).
Whilst I am proud to fight the good fight, both as a Spurs fan and as a Husband, Father and Grandfather I am still guided by those that are the intended target and how they actually feel. I think this is a tad harder when we are talking about religion as racism as it is not based on a physical appearance. By way of example I sat next to a lovely Jewish fella for many years, he absolutely hated Spurs fans signing "yids". What am I now meant to do? I chose not to ever sing or say that word whilst I was sat next to him, he's Jewish and I'm not, what else can I do but respect the wishes of a Jewish person, especially if he was offended by it. Equally, I've sat next to other Jews who belt it out with such conviction that it means everything to them, they feel empowered and humbled by Spurs fans/me signing it side by side, I've had long conversations with them and they don't feel marginalised and in return I felt more brotherhood singing "yid" alongside them, it gave it more relevance and made it more than just a chant, it gave it a cause.
If my memory serves me well you are Jewish(??), if that's correct it stands to reason that as a non-jew myself I'll always take your guidance and your opinion first, it helps shape mine, but on this very forum
TDLR: Need more Jewish Spurs fans to take up a voice. This article should be the first of many for that very reason.
Then the bullshit continues year after year after year.
Would you not agree the Jewish fanbase is really quiet about its position on this? Even if it should publically say it was divided I think would be a help, at least to us who have no intention to cause offence.
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I have 2 West ham supporting Jewish mates.1 says it doesn't bother him in the slightest, the other loves the fact that we call ourselves that,he even got me to get him 10 Yid Army badges to send to cousins in Israel.And his Dad always says. The first mate also said that he reckons Jewish west ham fans are jealous that we have adopted it.
There was a massive Jewish Community in Upton Park in the first half of the 20 century and they had a fair few Jewish fans.
To the best of my knowledge these two fellas don't know each other
There was a massive Jewish Community in Upton Park in the first half of the 20 century and they had a fair few Jewish fans.
To the best of my knowledge these two fellas don't know each other
An articulate, well thought out and balanced post as usual
Guido 🇺🇦
.
I'm sure there was a poll done on here a few years back. Perhaps about the time the Society of Black Lawyers felt that they needed some publicity.
It was this sort of thing?
Jewish fan - Offended
Non Jewish fan - Offended
Jewish fan - Not offended
Non Jewish fan - Not offended
Edit: Search function FTW. -
"Yid" Chanting Part 2 - new poll
Guido 🇺🇦
.I'm sure there was a poll done on here a few years back. Perhaps about the time the Society of Black Lawyers felt that they needed some publicity.
It was this sort of thing?
Jewish fan - Offended
Non Jewish fan - Offended
Jewish fan - Not offended
Non Jewish fan - Not offended
Edit: Search function FTW. -
"Yid" Chanting Part 2 - new poll
They still have many Jewish fans. It's been said a few times before that we have "probably" as many Jewish fans as Woolwich, West Ham and Chelsea. How this is actually determined is totally beyond me but many a piece has been written claiming such.
Woolwich always have ,going back to the 50s.Stands to reason i suppose,a lot of north London(and the areas where the old locals moved to) is split ,us and them, no reason why Jewish people should be any different.
Cheers fella!An articulate, well thought out and balanced post as usual
I'm sure there was a poll done on here a few years back. Perhaps about the time the Society of Black Lawyers felt that they needed some publicity.
It was this sort of thing?
Jewish fan - Offended
Non Jewish fan - Offended
Jewish fan - Not offended
Non Jewish fan - Not offended
Edit: Search function FTW. -
"Yid" Chanting Part 2 - new poll
Hadn't seen this before. Having looked at it I don't think I can tick any of the boxes. I can't put depends who I'm sat next to if I'm using the word. Or if I'm a recipient of hearing it I can't say depends on its context. I'm fucked.
Yes, if you'd ask our Jewish fan base most don't care a lot and I suppose overwhelmingly British Jews would prefer if there was no fuss around as they have greater concrete fears than some football banters.
Even if there was a poll and most Jewish supporters, and Jews in the UK would vote for our use the "professional kikes" as I call them would still want to create a fuss. There is no action that could make it stop part for being vigilant and unapologetic to quite them down, if the club had any backbone they would addressed the Jewish supporters themselves and simply present the positive feedback. But if you ask me the club was always a bit shy about it and they would much rather if there was no identification for emerging markets purposes.
I know a good few Spurs fans hate the name,and won't use it.
Personally i love it.
I do wonder what Daniel's views are.He can't condone it obviously,and i can't see it being an attraction to any Jewish businesses looking to invest,naming rights etc.
I am talking ones that have no loyalty to Tottenham ,from abroad etc here
Personally i love it.
I do wonder what Daniel's views are.He can't condone it obviously,and i can't see it being an attraction to any Jewish businesses looking to invest,naming rights etc.
I am talking ones that have no loyalty to Tottenham ,from abroad etc here
You said what i did ,pretty much..Just much more articulately
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Ended up being harrassed by some SJW type on Twitter about this a while ago. It's obvious from my profile on there that I'm openly queer, and they asked how I'd feel if a load of mostly straight football fans decided to 'reclaim' faggot, poof or some such as a badge of pride. Obviously the answer was meant to be that I'd be pissed off to paint me as a hypocrite, but honestly I thought it'd be fucking brilliant. Brighton have a bit of an issue with being targeted with homophobia, albeit not on the same scale as the anti-Semitism we get, and I would absolutely love it if their fans responded with "The thing I love most is being a fag" - what a great way that'd be to dispell it, make their club a safer place for us, and hopefully improve things elsewhere too.
I've got to say I wouldn't feel comfortable bringing a boyfriend with me to a football game (including Spurs) to be honest, much in the same way as I know many Jews feel distinctly uncomfortable at West Ham or Chelsea. So the ever-offended types - please kindly bugger off, tackle the actual issue, or just shut it. You aren't helping and most of you frankly don't have a clue what it's like to walk in the shoes of a queer or a Jew. The thing I love most is being a Yid (and a fag!)
I've got to say I wouldn't feel comfortable bringing a boyfriend with me to a football game (including Spurs) to be honest, much in the same way as I know many Jews feel distinctly uncomfortable at West Ham or Chelsea. So the ever-offended types - please kindly bugger off, tackle the actual issue, or just shut it. You aren't helping and most of you frankly don't have a clue what it's like to walk in the shoes of a queer or a Jew. The thing I love most is being a Yid (and a fag!)