It's an ok chart but I understand what he's saying. The Ryan Mason sample of 6 matches completely fucks up it. Should be a minimum match requirement and it should have the total matches listed for each manager.
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No way Nuno set us back at all. He was a placeholder for Conte and knew it. He did some good too binning off a few wasters like Hart. Jose was a car crash months in the making. I'm not being smart after the event we were the most poorly coached Spurs side I have ever seen under Mourinho and as him and Espirito-Santo are devotees of the same anti football coaching ethos (thank you Vitor frade) they were utterly unsuitable to manage Spurs in the same way. With Jose you had the added bonus of him being a shocking human too...
Sacramento resigned for sure. Don't know about the rest.
One of those was a 3-0 game after 70 minutes the other was 0-0. You are just looking at the stat sheet and nitpicking whatever is convenient to support your point. We were terrible away to City in the 3-0. We had a bit more possession (a whopping 39% compared to 38% in the league final) because they had a lead and sat back and all of our chances were once the game was out of reach. Our first shot on target was in the 59th minute down 2-0 and our other 2 were once we were down 3-0. Before then we had exactly 1 total shot (Kane hitting the post on a free kick in the 14th minute). I looked this up because I remembered we were complete shit in this game and knew we did nothing until late when it was already over... I didn't just look at a stat sheet and guess.
We didn't create anything in the league final either but at least we didn't concede 3 before 70 minutes and it was an actual contest. I am not saying firing Jose was the right choice or made any positive difference for this one game but to actually say we were better in the 3-0 to City than in the league final is just rewriting history.
We literally had 39% possession in the 3-0 and 38% in the 1-0 and all you put is "we had more possession"... I see you aced misleading people with Stats 101.
I'm confused by this because you just proved my points in bold so I'm not entirely sure what you're disputing here?
I think you can try reading what I said, I didn't say we were 'better' in the league match - I'm countering the point that we were better in the final when it's complete nonsense supported by 0 facts and seemingly confirmation bias
I'm happy to admit that both matches we were poor but at least in the match at the Etihad we created more chances (albeit through individual brilliance) despite the scoreline.
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Err we lost 3-0 as opposed to 1-0. There's the difference. The result is the same sure but seeing as he'd lost the dressing room we'd have easily lost the final under him too, probably by a cricket score as a direct consequence.
The only players that were 100% Jose were Kane & Lloris, the most specifically vocal, I'd probably put Son in that category too but can't recall him acting any differently under any manager he plays for.
There are scores of well-sourced articles (non-click bait) available to read on this very subject, consensus is he unquestionable lost the dressing room, downed tools, they weren't playing for him, were highly critical of him, lacked belief under him, weren't confident under him.
The thing is I think you are projecting your own lack of belief in Mason onto the players, thinking that they thought the same as you. Seeing as this rookie manager actually got a response from the team, not just in results but in some underlying numbers then this just demonstrates we were right to sack him when we did (already said that should have been done in his first season though).
I just don't know why you insist to go down this route, he was utter garbage, an absolute failure with Spurs. His record is evidence enough to say he a) should have been sacked and b) should have been sacked before the final. There is more evidence to support Nuno as a better manager to take the final than Jose.
Yep, I agree 100% with that. Like all data samples, if it's from a small data set you have to discard those periods, I'd also discard Nuno's entry too, for all intense and purposes he was an interim manager.
Nor doesn't it account for the fact that in Poch's last year his win % was MUCH lower than it had been in the preceding years... Ergo the suggestion that Jose made us 9% worse is bogus.
.......Jose took over with the team in 14th and with 20-something points over the last 24 games (including a damningly long spell without an away win!).
The chart also purposely omits Ramos in order to reflect more poorly on Jose & Nuno and sex up the 'they were the worst' narrative.
So this is how you judge a match is it, purely from a scoreline? Kinda naive don't you think? Do you not think that merely looking at the scoreline of a match completely removes the context if you're assessing how a team has played in it?
Now if you add context to that match, City scored from a pen (which wasn't a foul), a goal kick that left them 1 v 1 and a well worked goal, we might not have offered much in that match but it was a darn sight more than what we actually offered in the final, the reason it was so tight was because we planned to nick a result and play for penalties.
Also you're igonring the fact that it was played at the Etihad as well so it's kinda a pointless comparison as the parameters were entireley different and even if you want to compare matches vs City under Jose why are you basing this off that particular league match and not the ones that precceded them where he beat City twice?
And despite your (lack of) evidence in which you say certain players downed tools do you not think that those players would have actually got up for a final to win silverware? Really?
What route am I going down?, you can repeat this until your blue in the face, I have absolutely no qualms at his sacking and more than deserved to go - I was actually calling for his sacking in March, my issue was the actual timing, what ever way you want to dress it up it's utterley stupid - if you're happy to highlight his record as a Spurs manager and use that as evidence as to why he should have gone then you should keep the same energy and highlight his record in finals and winning trophies to suggest why he should have been kept on for that match.
Also I'm completely dismissing the Nuno point as it's laughable, I think you know that.
Roma on the rise as Mourinho’s ‘us against the world’ mentality pays off | Nicky Bandini
Draw at Napoli was yet more evidence that the manager’s bond with his players has improved results immeasurably
www.theguardian.com
You buy in and maybe you get somewhere. He didn't get us to believe and didn't achieve. This Roma lot sound like they're onboard with his ways and may just go on to win something as a consequence. You don't win all those trophies by being a fraud. It is a two-way street.
That said, I couldn't wait for him to fuck off. He'd never have won us that final. The players were absent by that point. It was a relentless misery. Maybe in non-Covid times he'd have either fared better ... or been sacked sooner once the crowd turned.
Funny thing is, much as I disliked him as our manager, I really like him as a pundit. Very insightful and a clever guy. But he was never going to work here, especially with some of the players he was saddled with.
We are on the same page with most things here, just apart on the point of sacking him before the final.So this is how you judge a match is it, purely from a scoreline? Kinda naive don't you think? Do you not think that merely looking at the scoreline of a match completely removes the context if you're assessing how a team has played in it?
Now if you add context to that match, City scored from a pen (which wasn't a foul), a goal kick that left them 1 v 1 and a well worked goal, we might not have offered much in that match but it was a darn sight more than what we actually offered in the final, the reason it was so tight was because we planned to nick a result and play for penalties.
Also you're igonring the fact that it was played at the Etihad as well so it's kinda a pointless comparison as the parameters were entireley different and even if you want to compare matches vs City under Jose why are you basing this off that particular league match and not the ones that precceded them where he beat City twice?
And despite your (lack of) evidence in which you say certain players downed tools do you not think that those players would have actually got up for a final to win silverware? Really?
What route am I going down?, you can repeat this until your blue in the face, I have absolutely no qualms at his sacking and more than deserved to go - I was actually calling for his sacking in March, my issue was the actual timing, what ever way you want to dress it up it's utterley stupid - if you're happy to highlight his record as a Spurs manager and use that as evidence as to why he should have gone then you should keep the same energy and highlight his record in finals and winning trophies to suggest why he should have been kept on for that match.
Also I'm completely dismissing the Nuno point as it's laughable, I think you know that.
What is pointless is trying to even attempt to evaluate how we would have theoretically played under a manager that was failing to the point where we all rejoiced when he was sacked, when sacking him has proved without a doubt was the right thing to do on account that we now have a manager who's transformed (not completely) the team and has us playing football again.
We sacked a manager that was shit. Shit managers don't deserve to get another game, if it was felt that he could have beaten them then I'm sure he would have been given the chance to take the team, I'm as sure as I can possibly be that they assessed this and didn't forget that we were in a final whilst making this decision. I know 100% that were I on the board I would have put my hand up for him to be sacked when he was because I'm as convinced as I possibly can be that he wouldn't have succeeded and that we'd have a marginally better chance with no manger at all, let alone a rookie manager.
I'm a proud Mourinhista. Go get that fourth place, Jose
Well yeah I've been making the same point for ages
To be honest with you we are both speculating here, I'm just speculating that we would have had a better chance with him in the final and you're speculating that it wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference, so we can only go by facts and history and the evidence suggests that his experience could have made the difference.
Who knows why Levy sacked him at that time but I maintain and one things for sure it's the worst thing he's ever done as Chairman of this football club because it's the first time he's directly taken destiny in his own hands and has had a key role in the outcome of a match particularly a match of such importance.
I think Mourinho leaving Tottenham made sense (only after the final!), however am interested in how Roma have done this year. They started well, then went crap, and pundits were claiming players were unhappy, but have came though the other side of this getting results and playing some very attractive football.
This isn’t meant as a piece of revision that Mourinho would have been the right person in the long term at Spurs (Conte is looking the part here), but could mean that he is the right person at Roma
This isn’t meant as a piece of revision that Mourinho would have been the right person in the long term at Spurs (Conte is looking the part here), but could mean that he is the right person at Roma
he's actually one of the greatest in history
But in order for you to make your speculation, you are travelling back in time, 6 years ago in fact to his last trophy, you have to time travel back a almost a decade (7/8yrs) ago for his last elite trophy. That's no different from looking at him and calling him a "WiNNeR" because of his past and expecting him to be brilliant for Spurs whilst ignoring how far off his teams actually are at competing with the elite (LFC, City, for a time Spurs under peak Poch, Bayern etc).Well yeah I've been making the same point for ages
To be honest with you we are both speculating here, I'm just speculating that we would have had a better chance with him in the final and you're speculating that it wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference, so we can only go by facts and history and the evidence suggests that his experience could have made the difference.
Who knows why Levy sacked him at that time but I maintain and one things for sure it's the worst thing he's ever done as Chairman of this football club because it's the first time he's directly taken destiny in his own hands and has had a key role in the outcome of a match particularly a match of such importance.
I would probably be agreeing with you if he (like Conte) was winning championships today and recently (and I don't have this expectation that we will win anything under Conte, just that I'm confident that he'll put us back in the conversation again as Poch did, I think we'd be challenging for something, what exactly I don't know).
So I'm looking at how he had Spurs play, what he did during his time as our manager, I base my speculation on the present and he had us playing absolutely shit. We were getting beat by dross, it was truly embarrassing. Nothing he did at Spurs lends itself to beating City in the Final. He was shit. By getting rid of him I guess there may have been the slimmest possibility the players would feel liberated and play with some freedom, but still doubtful given exactly who the oppo was (I wasn't confident most times we played them under peak Poch).
And everything supports the fact we were right to fire him, our results have improved, our metrics and underlying numbers also support this too, so logic dictates it's nothing but a hopeful fantasy to think he would have won that game. As much a fantasy that it was to presume that he was a good manager for us. he wasn't, he was shit.
Not at Spurs, he ain't. He was an absolute failure. That's all that's important, I couldn't give two fucks what he did at Chavs, it's not remotely relevant.
Okay so let's try and be honest in our assesment for the sake of this argument shall we...again, you're purposely missing out context to suit your agenda, at that point in 2021 it had been 5 years since he won a trophy but had only managed for 3 seasons in that time and had 2 full seasons! Also who's talking about elite trophies when the subject is the carabao Cup, last time I checked that's not an elite trophy so I'm not sure what the relevence is, same for your point about elite teams?
Highlighted that part of your post for relevence...I guess beating the team we played in the final twice before 2/3 times doesn't lend itself to beating them again in the final albeit in a neutral venue and Jose's final record stands at 12 wins out of 15 so the odds were more in our favour should we have kept him particularly when his successor had 0/0 in finals and at that time had only taken charge of 1 match in his professional coaching career. Also Jose's record against Pep was pretty modest, 7 wins 12 losses.
I think your hatred of the man is blinding you to the obvious here.
He was yeah, so was Alf Ramsey. So was Herbert Chapman