Mauricio Pochettino

[sammyspurs]

Because he doesn't embarrass the club and alienate players through the media. Plus under Sherwood it was very evident we had no direction, yet in half a year under Poch we're starting to look like a good team again, you keep bringing this up and people keep giving you the same answers. Let it go.

Im very happy with Poch. His positives outweigh the negatives tenfold.

I said it before, though, that doesnt mean I will pretend the negatives are not there.

What kind of argument is that? Poch gets a free pass to play an inadequate, stale, toothless, shit 442, several times over....because Sherwood was a cunt in the media?

What the fuck?

 

[KeaneBean]

Im very happy with Poch. His positives outweigh the negatives tenfold.

I said it before, though, that doesnt mean I will pretend the negatives are not there.

What kind of argument is that? Poch gets a free pass to play an inadequate, stale, toothless, shit 442, several times over....because Sherwood was a cunt in the media?

What the fuck?

You ignored my other two points, the media thing just hammered it home.

 

[sammyspurs]

You ignored my other two points, the media thing just hammered it home.

I addressed your entire post

 

[Juicy Sushi]

But people were not complaining about the wrong personel...they were saying 442 is outdated and has no place in modern football and it means we get swamped in midfield.

Why is nobody worried about that now? Im all for 442. I just have no idea why we play a good striker behind a shit one, and refuse to deploy out and out wingplay.

But Im very interested as to why people who slated 442 under Harry and Tim (not for the players in the formation, but for the formation itself being a liability against the modern 5 man midfield) are now fine with playing 442, and have no qualms with it, despite us being toothless and at times, diabolical.

Why is it now ok for Poch to play a piss poor 442, with the wrong players, while a third of the squad have been sent to the naughty corner.

To me, it depends. 4-4-2 doesn't have to mean traditional wingers, two traditional strikers and a two man midfield. It also depends on when you use it. Several clubs with aggressive pressing systems like ours will fall back to a 4-4-2 in defence even if they don't attack in that shape. Others will attack in that shape, with someone who isn't a traditional striker moving into a second striker position.

Pochettino doesn't use traditional wingers in his preferred starting formation, he basically treats them as either second strikers or attacking midfielders. He wants them to either cut in on a diagonal run, or to create overloads right around the box and get the ball to the striker/create scoring chances.

The "width" for him is the fullbacks coming up to help with overloading on the wings. This is partly because he's not too reliant on crossing, and I think also because crossing from really wide locations isn't very effective in open play.

Ferguson's Utd squads crossed very well, but didn't cross from wide positions, they'd cut in and try to cross or cut-back from inside or on the edge of the 18-yard box.

Since Pochettino isn't asking his wingers to do that, he's not going to play with them as a traditional 4-4-2 in attack.

I think his attempts to go to a 4-4-2 are perhaps a last-ditch attempt to flood the box with attackers, more than an attempt at a normal formation. It seems to be a weak point for him, as it's not an effective approach, but he is a young manager, and no one is perfect (Ferguson's midfields in his last years resembled the inside of a Galaxy bar more than a useful part of a football team).

It is true that a 4-4-2 formation can lose control of the midfield against other formations, but that depends just as much on the particular players, and if the strikers come back to help out. (Kane is great at this) Eriksen is great going forward, but his lack of ability to cover Mason charging up from deep means that even with a 3 man midfield on paper, we still get outnumbered and lose control sometimes. That's partly why Dembele was getting played as a 10, since it reduced the number of times it happened.

I don't think you'll see Spurs under Pochettino playing with a traditional 4-4-2 with "proper" wingers, but I don't think you'll see anyone else doing that either. That style of wing play isn't being used anymore as players generally seem to need to have a wider skill-set, but that's just part of football. We didn't win a double with a 4-4-2, but we did win a lot of Cups with one when it was a very effective option. The formation is still effective, a particular style of wing play isn't really as much, but that may change in future for all I know.

 

[KeaneBean]

I addressed your entire post

Whatever I'm not getting into an argument. But I gave 3 reasons and you picked out one to make your point, that's all I was saying.

 

[sammyspurs]

Whatever I'm not getting into an argument. But I gave 3 reasons and you picked out one to make your point, that's all I was saying.

Your 3 reasons:
1) We had no direction under Tim. I agree to some degree

2) He embbarassed the club and alienated players. I can see why people say that. Not my big issue with him though personally

3) Poch has done a great job. I agreed already and said his plus points are ten to every bad point.

So...how does any of that mean I should ignore Pochs absolute failure of a 442, and the fact he is himself alienating players.

I will praise him for the great job he is doing. That doesnt make him immune to making rather poor decisions sometimes though.

 

[Eskimo]

Because he doesn't embarrass the club and alienate players through the media. Plus under Sherwood it was very evident we had no direction, yet in half a year under Poch we're starting to look like a good team again, you keep bringing this up and people keep giving you the same answers. Let it go.

Hasnt he publicly criticised soldado for the miss yesterday? Had that been Tim everyone would have been blowing it massively out of proportion, but as its Poch its not even been mentioned.

 

[Raven_Spurs]

Hasnt he publicly criticised soldado for the miss yesterday? Had that been Tim everyone would have been blowing it massively out of proportion, but as its Poch its not even been mentioned.

How did he publicly critise him? I didn't see the interview but I only read something about him agreeing that soldado's missed chance was a key moment. That's all he said and then he changed topic. Compare that to the kind of things Sherwood has come out with.

 

[Mrs Perryman]

No one manager gets it right every time, but I think Poch is the right manager for us right now. I just hope to goodness he is going to be given the time to make it all come good - by both the Board and the supporters.

 

[sammyspurs]

To me, it depends. 4-4-2 doesn't have to mean traditional wingers, two traditional strikers and a two man midfield. It also depends on when you use it. Several clubs with aggressive pressing systems like ours will fall back to a 4-4-2 in defence even if they don't attack in that shape. Others will attack in that shape, with someone who isn't a traditional striker moving into a second striker position.

Pochettino doesn't use traditional wingers in his preferred starting formation, he basically treats them as either second strikers or attacking midfielders. He wants them to either cut in on a diagonal run, or to create overloads right around the box and get the ball to the striker/create scoring chances.

The "width" for him is the fullbacks coming up to help with overloading on the wings. This is partly because he's not too reliant on crossing, and I think also because crossing from really wide locations isn't very effective in open play.

Ferguson's Utd squads crossed very well, but didn't cross from wide positions, they'd cut in and try to cross or cut-back from inside or on the edge of the 18-yard box.

Since Pochettino isn't asking his wingers to do that, he's not going to play with them as a traditional 4-4-2 in attack.

I think his attempts to go to a 4-4-2 are perhaps a last-ditch attempt to flood the box with attackers, more than an attempt at a normal formation. It seems to be a weak point for him, as it's not an effective approach, but he is a young manager, and no one is perfect (Ferguson's midfields in his last years resembled the inside of a Galaxy bar more than a useful part of a football team).

It is true that a 4-4-2 formation can lose control of the midfield against other formations, but that depends just as much on the particular players, and if the strikers come back to help out. (Kane is great at this) Eriksen is great going forward, but his lack of ability to cover Mason charging up from deep means that even with a 3 man midfield on paper, we still get outnumbered and lose control sometimes. That's partly why Dembele was getting played as a 10, since it reduced the number of times it happened.

I don't think you'll see Spurs under Pochettino playing with a traditional 4-4-2 with "proper" wingers, but I don't think you'll see anyone else doing that either. That style of wing play isn't being used anymore as players generally seem to need to have a wider skill-set, but that's just part of football. We didn't win a double with a 4-4-2, but we did win a lot of Cups with one when it was a very effective option. The formation is still effective, a particular style of wing play isn't really as much, but that may change in future for all I know.

And this the exact reason I think Poch lacks a genuine plan b and has some adaptability problems, which we are suffering from.

He struggles to really change it up, and I cant back the "thin squad" argument when he has chosen to bench or completely drop so many decent players. Lennon has gone, but we still have Townsend.
Simply wrong.

 

[sammyspurs]

No one manager gets it right every time, but I think Poch is the right manager for us right now. I just hope to goodness he is going to be given the time to make it all come good - by both the Board and the supporters.

Couldnt agree more.

Im not going to tread on eggshells around him though.

 

[KeaneBean]

Your 3 reasons:
1) We had no direction under Tim. I agree to some degree

2) He embbarassed the club and alienated players. I can see why people say that. Not my big issue with him though personally

3) Poch has done a great job. I agreed already and said his plus points are ten to every bad point.

So...how does any of that mean I should ignore Pochs absolute failure of a 442, and the fact he is himself alienating players.

I will praise him for the great job he is doing. That doesnt make him immune to making rather poor decisions sometimes though.

I'm not saying you can't criticize Poch, I'm just trying to answer why I think it's fair Sherwood got different treatment over this than Poch.

 

[sammyspurs]

How did he publicly critise him?

Pochettino said a glaring first-half miss by striker Roberto Soldado was a decisive moment in the tie.
"It is true that it was key, this action,"

Id say thats a fair bit of critique, and Id also agree with Eskimo that another manager may have been berated for blaming Soldado for his poor tactical approach to the game.....

 

[sammyspurs]

I'm not saying you can't criticize Poch, I'm just trying to answer why I think it's fair Sherwood got different treatment over this than Poch.

And I think its nonsense that if both play a shit 442 and lose games, then Poch gets a pass because he does other things well.

Sherwood also did some good things, but you arent as quick to balance that out.

 

[Juicy Sushi]

Pochettino said a glaring first-half miss by striker Roberto Soldado was a decisive moment in the tie.
"It is true that it was key, this action,"

Id say thats a fair bit of critique, and Id also agree with Eskimo that another manager may have been berated for blaming Soldado for his poor tactical approach to the game.....

Pochettino blew the second half in both legs, I feel. The squad blew both first halves through failure to convert chances.

I think everyone has a bit of egg on their face, but hope they learn from it and improve.

 

[Juicy Sushi]

And this the exact reason I think Poch lacks a genuine plan b and has some adaptability problems, which we are suffering from.

He struggles to really change it up, and I cant back the "thin squad" argument when he has chosen to bench or completely drop so many decent players. Lennon has gone, but we still have Townsend.
Simply wrong.

I think he doesn't want to use a plan B, he wants to do plan A all the time, but the current squad can't all do that. Maybe 15 of them can, but we need more depth than that to keep plan A working. He doesn't have that, so plan B is an improve job with the pieces he has, which does not seem to be his strength.

The lack of a plan B is a valid criticism. The thin squad, in terms of their competence is also a valid critique, though, I feel.

 

[Jayc1]

Pochettino blew the second half in both legs, I feel. The squad blew both first halves through failure to convert chances.

I think everyone has a bit of egg on their face, but hope they learn from it and improve.

Look at it this way.

Your biggest goal threat is Kane.
You don't start him in the home leg. You get a draw.
Your biggest goal threat is still Kane.
You don't start him in the away leg. You lose.

Is it any surprise we're out? Really? Would Barca rotate Messi?

Kane played 47 minutes, out of the 180 possible.
Soldado played 180 minutes.

What on earth did Poch expect, or anyone for that matter. If you want to win something, you play your best players; Poch didn't do that. His first major failure for me, I don't think anyone can possibly defend it.

 

[vvv007]

Poch should have started his strongest XI in the 1st leg. We were rested for 8-9 days, the players should be very fresh and energised. Then rotated a few against West Ham and a bigger rotation in the 2nd leg.

 

[Juicy Sushi]

Look at it this way.

Your biggest goal threat is Kane.
You don't start him in the home leg. You get a draw.
Your biggest goal threat is still Kane.
You don't start him in the away leg. You lose.

Is it any surprise we're out? Really? Would Barca rotate Messi?

Kane played 47 minutes, out of the 180 possible.
Soldado played 180 minutes.

What on earth did Poch expect, or anyone for that matter. If you want to win something, you play your best players; Poch didn't do that. His first major failure for me, I don't think anyone can possibly defend it.

If the team had converted its chances though, we'd have been 3-1 up before half time at the Lane and we could have parked the bus.

Then he'd have looked like a genius.

If you're in the squad, you should be good enough to do the job. I feel it's not just on the coach.

 

[The Swellhead Spur]

He's going to look sexy as fuck in the official suit tomorrow