Messi - The greatest player ever?

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Afraid not, I'm looking at the fact I've watched 95% of his games this year. The 10 goals in 5 games is just an easy stat to use, as it's the most important one.

His shot quality isn't down. His finishing is as good as ever, which anyone who has watched the majority of his games, rather than dissected it with numbers will tell you. Do these numbers take into account the pressure created by defenders when taking the shots? No. The starting position of the goalkeepers? No. The quality of said goalkeepers? No. The quality of said defenders? No. There are far, far too many variables. The only way to really know is watching the game.
The guy who produces these watches more games than both of us put together, and the xG model he may be working from could very well include all of the things you're mentioning. It's just a matter of how much data he has on hand.

Again, if you watch the games he plays, the reason his passing volume is down in the ''dangerous areas'' is because he plays deeper now. Regularly collecting the ball off Pique and Mascherano and also sharing the creative burden more broadly with Neymar, Suarez and Rakitic.

What even constitutes a dangerous area? A dangerous area changes from player to player. Wherever they can hurt you on the pitch is dangerous. Ruud Van Nistelrooy's ''dangerous area'' would be different to Cristiano Ronaldo's or Gareth Bale's.
I used the phrase dangerous areas, the actual radar specifically tracks key passes into the box. So, his passes into the box that become shots are the "dangerous passes".

Messi is as good this year as he's been ever. Sometimes just watch the game and wallow in the brilliance rather than treat it like some code to break.

Moneyball doesn't apply to football.
Moneyball didn't apply to moneyball either. I'm not going to clog up a separate thread with stats vs non-stats debates. I am simply sharing something someone else noticed. That is all. If you disagree, fine, but your arguments as to why are unconvincing to me.
 
The guy who produces these watches more games than both of us put together, and the xG model he may be working from could very well include all of the things you're mentioning. It's just a matter of how much data he has on hand.
Just because he watches more games doesn't mean much. It means he's a statistician who likes football. What standard of football did he play? what coaching qualifications does he have? Is he registered with the PFSA? If so, what level has he achieved?

Again, football is not about data and numbers. It's about the body, the mind and the ball. Intuition is paramount. Intuition can't be reasoned with numbers.

You could have all the data in the world pointing in one direction and football will piss completely into your chips and give you a completely different result.

If it were like that, football betting would be easy.

I used the phrase dangerous areas, the actual radar specifically tracks key passes into the box. So, his passes into the box that become shots are the "dangerous passes".

There, you've proven that this ''dangerous area'' to consitute a ''dangerous pass'' is nonsense. What about the passes, say, from Alderweireld that releases a counter which achieves a goal? That wouldn't constitute a dangerous pass in this regard despite it being a catalyst of a goal.

Which brings me back to Messi. He's playing deeper, collecting balls off the defence and playmaking. Those ''dangerous passes'' will go down due to that. That doesn't mean it's the beginning of the end. It means his role is different and other players are sharing the creative load, especially in the final 3rd.

If you disagree, fine, but your arguments as to why are unconvincing to me.
Your argument that football is black and white through data analysis is even less so. The stats used, no matter how great and exhaustive, are completely arbitrary to what the user and creator feel is important.

Scouts have done without them being the primary indicator of a good player for over 100 years. They used their eyes to see what a good player was, and still do.

To limit Lionel Messi to statistics, which, in the most important areas, are still the best in the world, is silly imo.

I mean, how did Messi get scouted for Newell's Old Boys at 6 years old, or any young player scouted at that age, in the first place? It wasn't intimate dissecting of statistics. It was watching a player.

"When you saw him you would think: this kid can't play ball. He's a dwarf, he's too fragile, too small. But immediately you'd realise that he was born different, that he was a phenomenon and that he was going to be something impressive."
 
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When comparing players I ask myself: who would I prefer in my first eleven if I could choose only one?

So, Zidane or Messi?

For me, Zidane.

No statistics will support my answer but I think Zidane was marginally more effective. Of course they are different positions and different types of players but this is the question I ask myself in order to arrive at my favourite all time player.
 
Apparently it's Ronaldo....!! Messi is on;y 2nd... Go figure!

But it's OK, 'cos Jamie Vardy is the 8th best player in Europe...

just read that out loud to yourselves again.

Jamie Vardy is the 8th best player in Europe...

The snivelling little rat-faced racist is officially better than every single player in our team, and most of the Premier League except Ryhad Mahrez!
What a great role model he is for the kids!!
 
Apparently it's Ronaldo....!! Messi is on;y 2nd... Go figure!

But it's OK, 'cos Jamie Vardy is the 8th best player in Europe...

just read that out loud to yourselves again.

Jamie Vardy is the 8th best player in Europe...

The snivelling little rat-faced racist is officially better than every single player in our team, and most of the Premier League except Ryhad Mahrez!
What a great role model he is for the kids!!

I wouldn't rate him top 8 in the Premier League for fucks sake :sonlol:
 
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The thread is greatest player ever

Not now

So who would you want to watch in his prime?

Messi

Or Gazza, Greavsie ot Besty

No contest for me
 
Can't really say Ronaldo hasn't deserved it based on the amount of goals he has scored and what he has won. Champions League, European Championships (Portugals first honour in football), 51 goals in 55 games in all competitions across club and international football.

I thought it was more criminal that Suarez didn't get in the top 3.
 
I don't think Skysports like him (CR).

Not a single pixel about it, after weeks of bollocks about Jamie Vardy being nominated
 
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