Messi - The greatest player ever?

[Totti]

Myth?

Before Maradona Napoli had 2 Italian cups in their history.

With Maradona they won the league twice, their only European trophy, the cup again, and the Italian supercup.

After Maradona they've won 2 cups and a supercup.

The Italian League is well known for match fixings. Maradona scored 10 goals the first title they won and they had one of the best defences in the league. He didn't drag them to anything.

They won the most games, lost the fewest and had the best goal difference (because the defence was so good). Team was FULL of international footballers too, they weren't a shit team. He wasn't even their best player in the year they won the title.

 

[Joe Clash]

The Italian League is well known for match fixings. Maradona scored 10 goals the first title they won and they had one of the best defences in the league. He didn't drag them to anything.

They won the most games, lost the fewest and had the best goal difference (because the defence was so good). Team was FULL of international footballers too, they weren't a shit team. He wasn't even their best player in the year they won the title.

So the trophy count imbalance is a coincidence? Fucking hell, they won more in his time there than in the rest of their history combined. And they won 2 titles.

 

[sammyspurs]

Come on, mate.

That goal has been spunked over for decades. Even mooted as ''the greatest F.A. Cup goal ever''. It gets plaudits.

This whole ''if so and so did this'' stuff that's all over Twitter these days is nonsense. Good goals are recognised and scored everywhere. But when you do it as often as Messi, he gets more plaudits.

It's not that hard to grasp, the more good bits of football you do, the more plaudits you get.

The Puskas Award was given to a guy in the Malaysian League this year, the runner up in the Copa Libertadores and the 3rd place to an age group female player.

Last year it was a Brazilian lower league side with, of course, Stephanie Roche's wonder goal runner up the year before that.

Good goals get recognised.

No need to piss on Messi's legacy because the game has improved in all facets.

8 words for you sonny
Rainy Day In Stoke On A Wednesday Night

Charlie Adam has proved himself at the top. Where was Messi?

:walkercry:

 

[SchmoodSpur2013]

8 words for you sonny
Rainy Day In Stoke On A Wednesday Night

Charlie Adam has proved himself at the top. Where was Messi?

:walkercry:

Yea, has he done it on a sunny 40 degree Saturday in Marbella?

 

[SchmoodSpur2013]

I think I've narrowed it down...

The greatest players of all time are...

1. Diego Maradona
2. Matt Le Tissier
3. Billy Wingrove
4. Jeremy Lynch
5. Lionel Messi

 

[Joe Clash]

I've never seen Messi do this.



ADAM > MESSI

Caps lock makes it true.

 

[Totti]

So the trophy count imbalance is a coincidence? Fucking hell, they won more in his time there than in the rest of their history combined. And they won 2 titles.

No, he added something else to an otherwise solid team. I was merely dismissing the fact that he DRAGGED an average team to a title. He didn't. He played his part, others played just as much of a part in making that happen.

 

[Joe Clash]

No, he added something else to an otherwise solid team. I was merely dismissing the fact that he DRAGGED an average team to a title. He didn't. He played his part, others played just as much of a part in making that happen.

So a coincidence then? That's what you appear to be saying. Lol.

 

[Totti]

So a coincidence then? That's what you appear to be saying. Lol.

No, I'm saying he's a very very good player but he didn't carry them to a title.

 

[CJJ]

This whole thread has turned a bit strange.

On the last few pages, we've discovered that someone playing 8th tier of English football is a better free kick taker than Messi and that no one can ever become the best ever player ever again because the pitches are far too good these days.

Who said better? Straw man much...

The fact is, his free kicks aren't anywhere near as impressive as a whole host of other players. A good free kick taker doesn't make a top class player just as much as a top class player doesn't have to be good at set pieces.

The point was, his free kicks aren't that special, but because it's Messi, everyone goes OMFGWTFROFLCOPTER MESSI. It's exactly the same as Roberto Carlos - he scored one decent free kick in a friendly competition and everyone seems to reference him as a dead ball specialist, which he generally wasn't.

 

[Totti]

Who said better? Straw man much...

The fact is, his free kicks aren't anywhere near as impressive as a whole host of other players. A good free kick taker doesn't make a top class player just as much as a top class player doesn't have to be good at set pieces.

The point was, his free kicks aren't that special, but because it's Messi, everyone goes OMFGWTFROFLCOPTER MESSI. It's exactly the same as Roberto Carlos - he scored one decent free kick in a friendly competition and everyone seems to reference him as a dead ball specialist, which he generally wasn't.

it's a Messi thread - just simply posting free kicks that he's scored. It's hard to score a free kick let alone 3 in a week. Eriksen hasn't scored one for over a year and he's hailed as one of the best free kick takes in Europe.

 

[SchmoodSpur2013]

Who said better? Straw man much...

The fact is, his free kicks aren't anywhere near as impressive as a whole host of other players. A good free kick taker doesn't make a top class player just as much as a top class player doesn't have to be good at set pieces.

The point was, his free kicks aren't that special, but because it's Messi, everyone goes OMFGWTFROFLCOPTER MESSI. It's exactly the same as Roberto Carlos - he scored one decent free kick in a friendly competition and everyone seems to reference him as a dead ball specialist, which he generally wasn't.

Just stop digging.

Now comparing him to Roberto Carlos in the free-kick scale.

Carlos iirc generally had a less than 1% success rate on free-kicks whereas Messi is in the elite crew that are above or near to 7%.

It's embarrassing you comparing him to these people just because you have some sort of grudge.

There is literally not an ounce of fact in what you're saying.

34 year old Billy Wingrove of Ware and Roberto Carlos.

Sensationalist nonsense which no one but yourself believes.

 

[SchmoodSpur2013]

it's a Messi thread

Ding Ding Ding!

 

[CJJ]

Just stop digging.

Now comparing him to Roberto Carlos in the free-kick scale.

Carlos iirc generally had a less than 1% success rate on free-kicks whereas Messi is in the elite crew that are above or near to 7%.

It's embarrassing you comparing him to these people just because you have some sort of grudge.

There is literally not an ounce of fact in what you're saying.

34 year old Billy Wingrove of Ware and Roberto Carlos.

Sensationalist nonsense which no one but yourself believes.

It's embarrasing you can't read.

I'm making a point that you're arguing for. Scoring a good free kick doesn't make any indication on quality, so why when Messi scores a reasonable set piece is everyone shitting their knickers about it?

Because it's Messi. Like everything else he does. It's all just hype.

 

[CousinEddie]

I've never seen Messi do this.



ADAM > MESSI

Caps lock makes it true.

I must admit, I've always had time for Charlie.
Maybe due in part to his overall treatment of woolwich.
And he pulls off a mean robot.

I seem to remember the Oatcake devoting a thread to this beauty of a hoof, debating whether it should be goal of the year....

 

[Joe Clash]

No, I'm saying he's a very very good player but he didn't carry them to a title.

But in the 7 years he played for them they (sorry to repeat myself) won more trophies than in the rest of their entire history combined. They were average before him and average after. This is the effect a great player can have. To not acknowledge that is silly.

 

[SchmoodSpur2013]

It's embarrasing you can't read.

I'm making a point that you're arguing for. Scoring a good free kick doesn't make any indication on quality, so why when Messi scores a reasonable set piece is everyone shitting their knickers about it?

Because it's Messi. Like everything else he does. It's all just hype.

Because it was in the 90th minute of a game which had they lost would probably have been major psychological boost to their rivals.

I'll learn to read when you learn context.

It's not just about the technical aspect of the goal but the situation of it.

But crack on telling us all how an 8th division player could do it.

 

[CJJ]

Because it was in the 90th minute of a game which had they lost would probably have been major psychological boost to their rivals.

So Beckham > Messi then?

That's context. Greece, 6th October 2001 - 93rd min. Qualification for the world cup is a bit more than a "major psychological boost".


I wandered in here thinking this was a thread to discuss the title of it, but it's apparently supposed to be named "SchmoodSpur can't accept Messi isn't the greatest player ever".

 

[SchmoodSpur2013]

So Beckham > Messi then?

That's context. Greece, 6th October 2001 - 93rd min. Qualification for the world cup is a bit more than a "major psychological boost".

Straw man much...

I wandered in here thinking this was a thread to discuss the title of it, but it's apparently supposed to be named "SchmoodSpur can't accept Messi isn't the greatest player ever".

Im still of the opinion everyone trails the Brazilian Ronaldo and if it wasn't for injuries it'd be a lot clearer. But then I wouldn't argue hard against Messi, Maradona, Garrincha, Pele, Zidane, Beckenbauer, Cruyff, Best or King.

lol

 

[Totti]

But in the 7 years he played for them they (sorry to repeat myself) won more trophies than in the rest of their entire history combined. They were average before him and average after. This is the effect a great player can have. To not acknowledge that is silly.

They broke the bank on Maradona (when they didn't actually have the money) and also spent money re-building the team. It took them 3 years AFTER they signed Maradona (also signing de Napoli ,Ferrara, Carnevale, Giordano etc). They had finally built a team adequate of winning Serie A but also had a star man to take them to that level. Just like you get people in the Transfer thread saying we NEED that one guy to take us to the next level.

Championships are built on defences. They had one of the meanest defences in Italy. With Maradona's magic, they also had end product. Napoli's finances deteriorated (due to spending what they didnt have), had to sell players, Maradona was banned and then sold and then they ended up going into decline and getting relegated.

That has nothing to do with Maradona leaving them, this was just stupid ownership. All the other Giant Italian teams like Milan and Juventus were buying all the top players and even if Napoli had Maradona, probably wouldn't have accounted to much, obviously that's just hypothetical but thats mainly the reason why they hadn't done much since he left, poor financial decisions, relegations etc. since theyve come back into prominence in recent years, theyd probably have had more titles if it wasnt for Juventus' clear dominance.

Once again, I'm not dismissing Maradona's effect on the Napoli team. He was there at the point he was CLEARLY the best footballer in the world, all I am disagreeing with is the fact that he won the league single handedly.