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[Éperons]

It isn't a facist image though, that's the point. You insisting it is doesn't make it so.

And I've only stated my own personal preference. When we shake hands, and you're wearing your 2011–12 cup tie shirt, I won't say to myself "that dude's a fascist". I, personally, simply feel that that logo is something I don't want on my belly. And I've tried to explain why I feel that way.

Well, firstly we are not talking about words but imagery

They're both semiotic units imo. There's no difference to me.

what builds the associated with facism is the use and context of a shape. There is no doubt that a swastika on a white background on a red flag or a military uniform is evoking of Nazism.

We agree! That's my point! It's not simply because the logo looks like it does that I don't like it. It's because it looks like it does and it's on a football shirt. The shirt provides the context—akin to a military uniform.

I would except the logic of your argument if there was a group of people who took the view that the Investec logo evoked facism. But so far only you have said this and I am not aware of any evidence of anyone other than yourself having this view, therefore it is surely you that is creating the association and purpetuating it by refusing to wear the shirt?

I see what you're getting at. It may be the case that there are fascists who bank with Investec because of the logo. Or use "investec" as code for "fascist activity". I doubt it. But I also doubt I'd know. And I also don't think it matters terribly. My point is I'd rather not have it around, and I personally won't wear it.

The way I read your sentiment here is that if I had never posted my feelings of unease about this logo on a message board, then I would not be perpetuating the association between swastikas and fascism. That seems a bit crazy.

Helll, we may as well phone up neo-Nazi groups and start suggesting shapes to them.

Well, they're already doing this with their own "sorta swastikas" as noted above.

Can I be honest mate, do you know what this sounds like to me? It sounds like you were right in the first place and have probably had to accept their viewpoint as being right, despite your better judgment. Just because a number of these peopel banded together and said the logo you designed looked too facist, doesn't mean it actually was. I'm actually better it wasn't. ould you care to post it?

Wasn't a logo. It was language. It was for a Lithuanian youth group out here in Paris. Translated, the shirt read:

[centre]My wine is French
My blood is Lithuanian[/centre]
The critique was that suggesting that "blood" could be "Lithuanian" laid into racist tropes about "clean blood" and the like. I agree that it could be read that way. My response, however, was to say that by putting "My wine is French" first, it shows that, just as what wine you drink is a personal choice, what "blood" you have is also a personal choice, and, ultimately, equivalently important to who you are as is whatever wine you drink.

(Slightly ironically, the shirt was inspired by this postcard I bought at the Jewish Museum in Berlin:
[centre]

[/centre]
)

AIn my view, the first two are not facist logos.

I don't think it's that simple. I think that they are both fascist logos and pre-fascist symbols. But, like I said, one can't use them in this day and age and then play dumb saying "but I meant the historical symbol!"

You're right, and Raitei underscores it, that context is key, like I agreed above. A "swastika" carved into a ceiling pattern in a Buddhist temple is obviously not meant to suggest that the people worshipping in the temple are secret Nazis. And if the Investec logo is on my credit card, again, then I don't care.

It's solely because the fascists have made a decades-long effort to ruin football for the rest of us that I get tripped up.

 

[Kalyl]

amagawd, nothing derails Ep!

 

[TheShelfSide]

I am utterly unconvinced that Investec are fascists.


I know that's not what you're saying, but still

It is a shame that the swastika was tainted by the Nazis, because it is a pretty cool looking symbol.

This,

The Chu Van (swastika to most Westerners) is the symbol of Enlightenment, the achievement of Nirvana. It is often found on medals, decorating pagodas, or on the chests of Buddha statues as Buddhists believe it will appear on the chests of the Enlightened.

For further reading see here - http://www.history.navy.mil/library/onl ... igions.htm




Next we will be told the Ying Yang sign was Hitlers second choice!

My point?

To those looking into altering compasses and stars is to look like the fascist/extremists symbol of choice is...

You only believe what you want to....

 

[Raitei]

I am utterly unconvinced that Investec are fascists.


I know that's not what you're saying, but still

It is a shame that the swastika was tainted by the Nazis, because it is a pretty cool looking symbol.

This,

The Chu Van (swastika to most Westerners) is the symbol of Enlightenment, the achievement of Nirvana. It is often found on medals, decorating pagodas, or on the chests of Buddha statues as Buddhists believe it will appear on the chests of the Enlightened.

For further reading see here - http://www.history.navy.mil/library/onl ... igions.htm




Next we will be told the Ying Yang sign was Hitlers second choice!

My point?

To those looking into altering compasses and stars is to look like the fascist/extremists symbol of choice is...

You only believe what you want to....

It's relevance dates much further back than Buddhism, such as Hinduism and such. Also, Swastika is very much an eastern word from Sanskrit.

That said, the whole thread derailment (Beko anybody?) seems to stem from a matter of classification by association, the human brain is probably the best pattern matching device known to man. It's why we're able to pick out Jesus' face in a slice of mouldy bread. We learn on association, we take input and form neural pathways and such to strengthen the bond from input to output.

None of us seem to see the Investec logo as related to fascism in anyway because there is not prior reason for us to associate the logo with it. Eperons on the other hand finds an association, sees a pattern and thus classifies the logo base on what those links tell him.

This entire thread is becoming a bit of a non-issue. People aren't seeing what another person is. It doesn't really matter at all, Eperons will not buy the shirt if it's got an Investec logo on it, meanwhile we'll all wear shirts with shitty electronics brands on them.

Anyway, have we signed Vertonghen yet?

 

[boneycrisp]

^^^^THE ONE ABOVE THIS!!!!

I have to say I bet Investec are loving how they have unintentionally caused a mass discussion about symbolism v. fascism

 

[BUYLEDLEYNEWKNEES]

Shall we all agree that INVESTIECH should from now-forth change its symbol to that of a butterfly or blue orchid?
To even install a murmur of a thought of their symbolism connoting the Nazi regime or white supremacy organisations is a rather large oversight by a company as large as this. I just read it as 'you give us your moneys and we will aim it in the right direction and give you more moneys' with the crosshairs but nevertheless. Worst thing is somebody got paid thousands of moneys to design that :harryfacepalm:

 

[VirginiaSpur]

Coincidentally, I was doing logo designs for my company all day long and you guys have gotten me all paranoid that unintentional fascist symbols might creep into the design...

 

[Mike in Parma]

Not surprised by this.

Levy would put Primark on the shirt if they paid enough. It's all part of the £££££ masterplan.

I'm well happy with my tiger onesie I got from them on Oxford St. I'd be ok with it.

 

[VirginiaSpur]

Ok, Eperons' post disappeared. I've noticed that a few of mine have been disappearing in the past few days. CASE!

But this is what I was responding to

unintentional fascist symbols might creep into the design...

This comment reminds me of a situation we had in school. Our mascot was a gorilla. Our jazz band decided it wanted to make some neat t-shirts so we could be music wankers together.

One student put two and two together and submitted a design: a bunch of gorillas playing jazz instruments.

Watching our leader explain to the student why that design could not fly was at the same time hilarious and painful. The student had no negative intent with the design. He probably thought he was being clever. And the teacher had to bend over backwards to explain why, despite that, the design would never see the light of day.

Was the teacher right in stepping in and saying no despite the lack of malicious intent from the student? From some of the discussion here, the sense I get is that opinions might differ on whether the teacher acted correctly. (I think he did.)

Love it.

By any chance did you see the video of that little kid who dressed up as Martin Luther King for a school project? It was in some thread a few days ago. He came in with full-on black face and was suspended from school. The entire family appeared on the news with this kid dressed as Martin Luther King and he was so torn up it was almost sad.

 

[Smoked Salmon]

Ok, Eperons' post disappeared. I've noticed that a few of mine have been disappearing in the past few days. CASE!

Why are posts being deleted? That's not good, not good at all. That's the first step towards this place becoming as insufferable as the rest. I really hope that doesn't happen.

 

[VirginiaSpur]

See my post in "Posts Disappearing" thread. Doesn't make any sense at all that they're being deleted, it doesn't fit with the established procedures here at TFC.

 

[Sibs]

It's a fucking crosshair! What the fuck are you seeing?!

 

[Admin]

As I've said in the other topic, Éperons deleted his own post.

I'd question the need for this discussion you're having though. Can you do it elsewhere? Ideally via email or create a new thread in Off Topic if you have to. I'd guess that most people want to discuss Spurs new sponsor in here, not scroll through whatever the hell you're going on about.

 

[Éperons]

Case is right. I realised that I wasn't talking about the sponsor anymore at all, so I deleted the post. Up until then, my posts were "Spurs-related", if only tenuously.

I also didn't like the last paragraph, as it could be read as smug. Throughout I've argued that I don't mind people disagreeing with me, so there was no need to challenge them with more provocation.

 

[AberdeenYid]

For what it's worth (fuck all), I can see the swastika argument. Does mean screwing my eyes up a bit, but it's there.

 

[Benjoss]

I've got another one!

 

[Thelonious]

I've got another one!

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[ Image ]

they're racist for having Pele front that campaign.

 

[YidoBuckler]

I've got another one!

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[ Image ]

I'm struggling to understand in which way this post is meant...

 

[BrooklynYid]

Yeah but if you look reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally close pfizer is close to shizer. #Pooicist

 

[Habanero]

So Pfizer for the league, and Durex for the cup?