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Tbh I'm not justifying Qatari laws or its government. Personally I'm not a fan of the government, but then I'm not a fan of the government of any of the countries I've lived.
My point is that Westerners may have a moral viewpoint that is not shared amongst ordinary Qataris, let's leave the government out of it for now. If you want to convince the people of an alternative viewpoint, you have 3 options that I can see.
1) Change those countries down the barrel of a gun. I don't think anyone calls for that outside of a couple neocons that are drunk on American Exceptionalism. Most people, especially here in the UK, regard that to be wrong.
2) You can use the 'softer' pressure of boycott or in certain limited circumstances, sanctions. This is also highly counterproductive. All it does is alienate the people that you are trying to convince. It creates an us vs the world scenario and it reinforces people in their original stance. This world cup will open Qatar to a multitude of different nationalities and ideological viewpoints. If the FA or the national team were to boycott it totally, you throw away that opportunity.
3) You convince people intellectually. This has to be the only way forward. You demonstrate that your moral point is objectively true. You may use First Principles to establish your grounding. I see these types of debates happening online regularly, especially between Muslims, Christians and Atheists who generally represent the secular Liberal humanist outlook.
Maybe I'm oversimplifying it, but that's the way I see it. This applies the other way too btw. I think it's generally accepted that migrants to this country should live within its laws and societal norms and not try to change it to fit their ideological viewpoint. If Muslims from Qatar came to the UK and tried to argue Islamic morals should prevail in the UK, and then point to some of our social ills as some sort of justification, I would have the same stance. You can't take your morals and principles and then expect a foreign people to change based on your say so. You can however, through discussion and intellectual argumentation, try to change peoples stance.
Convinci
It didn't work in SA for example, but tbf neither did sanctions. The changes have to come from within.
Trying to use intellect against a religious dogma will certainly never work.
We are not talking about laws, morals or social ills.
We are talking about basic, simple human rights for all, regardless of gender, colour, sexuality or anything else.
Again, you seem to think that as Qatar (not just them) has a different philosophy from the western world that these basic rights can be ignored.
A simple question, regardless of country, religion or race;
Do you believe that homosexuals should have the same rights as the rest of society ?
If the answer is yes (as any right minded person should think that to be the case) then you have to condemn those countries where it is illegal.
It really is as simple as that.
Edit:
I did a simple Google search and it appears that although women's rights are some of the best for middle Eastern countries, it appears all is not as it seems.
For anyone interested.
www.expatica.com
Convincing regimes intellectually, most of the time, doesn't work.
It didn't work in SA for example, but tbf neither did sanctions. The changes have to come from within.
Trying to use intellect against a religious dogma will certainly never work.
We are not talking about laws, morals or social ills.
We are talking about basic, simple human rights for all, regardless of gender, colour, sexuality or anything else.
Again, you seem to think that as Qatar (not just them) has a different philosophy from the western world that these basic rights can be ignored.
A simple question, regardless of country, religion or race;
Do you believe that homosexuals should have the same rights as the rest of society ?
If the answer is yes (as any right minded person should think that to be the case) then you have to condemn those countries where it is illegal.
It really is as simple as that.
Edit:
I did a simple Google search and it appears that although women's rights are some of the best for middle Eastern countries, it appears all is not as it seems.
For anyone interested.
Women's rights in Qatar: a comprehensive guide
Women’s rights in Qatar are conflicting, even contradictory, so it's important for expats to do their homework in advance.
www.expatica.com
Last edited:
Really appreciate your valuable contribution to the discussion. I share your scepticism about the effectiveness of boycotts. It’s rash and ineffective (speaking as someone who boycotted Israel as a teenager).
As
stevee
said, there is no reasonable viewpoint that seeks to restrict peoples rights based on sexuality. This is not a question of cultural norms but rather cultural oppression.And the root cause of that is an extremely conservative religious dogma. I can’t say how this manifests in Qatar specifically but in much of the Islamic world (and the western world historically) political power and religious power are intertwined; religion is a convenient tool for social control.
The end result is always the same with social conservatives - in groups that the law protects but does not bind and out groups that the law binds but does not protect.
Feel like we need to seperate threads here, one about the football and another about the human rights/corruption issues and all that crap.
Before anyone says the politics and sport shouldn’t be separated and that we should boycott this World Cup, I’m an Aussie with Italian heritage… couldn’t agree more.
Before anyone says the politics and sport shouldn’t be separated and that we should boycott this World Cup, I’m an Aussie with Italian heritage… couldn’t agree more.
Convinci
Convincing regimes intellectually, most of the time, doesn't work.
It didn't work in SA for example, but tbf neither did sanctions. The changes have to come from within.
Trying to use intellect against a religious dogma will certainly never work.
We are not talking about laws, morals or social ills.
We are talking about basic, simple human rights for all, regardless of gender, colour, sexuality or anything else.
Again, you seem to think that as Qatar (not just them) has a different philosophy from the western world that these basic rights can be ignored.
A simple question, regardless of country, religion or race;
Do you believe that homosexuals should have the same rights as the rest of society ?
If the answer is yes (as any right minded person should think that to be the case) then you have to condemn those countries where it is illegal.
It really is as simple as that.
Edit:
I did a simple Google search and it appears that although women's rights are some of the best for middle Eastern countries, it appears all is not as it seems.
For anyone interested.
Women's rights in Qatar: a comprehensive guide
Women’s rights in Qatar are conflicting, even contradictory, so it's important for expats to do their homework in advance.
I agree with your opening statements in a generic way. Few regimes are likely to be influenced unless they saw some sort of benefit in it for themselves. That is why I mentioned ordinary people, as if you want real change, it usually comes from the bottom up and not top down.
( A slight aside here but there is an exception to this general rule that is developing as we speak and that is Saudi. Prince Salman is a staunch secularist. He is slowly changing Saudi from the top down, so as to align his country more and more with Western values. I mean the guy also happens to be an absolute madman and will also kill 'inconvenient' people but he is actually changing the very fabric and structure of Saudi society. That is another one of the countries I have lived in for a short period and I can't fully express how much he has changed and how fast. Much of it against the will of his people. I suppose some people will celebrate when Saudi becomes more aligned with Western values against the will of its people but I won't- I see big problems coming to that country very soon)
Anyway back to the point, where I disagree with you is when you say that intellectual arguments cannot change dogmatic views, religious or otherwise. I see it happening regularly. As somewhat of a staunch hard-core salafist character myself at one point, it was intellectual argumentation that changed many of my views. I have seen people leave religion altogether and come into religion as well, all because of conversation. This way is more productive than the enforced Saudi way which will have negative consequences.
And I didn't ask for these rights to be ignored. I simply made the point that if you want things to be changed, there is a right way of doing it and a wrong way. If you are not interested in change, but simply want to make a stand against an idea you disagree with, then fair enough. But the international pressure put on Qatar is with intention for it to change and conform to the current world order.
You speak about human rights but a Qatari would just say who put the UN human rights charter together? What ideological viewpoint was it grounded by? Apart from secular Liberalism, were the moral viewpoints of other ideologies considered? Did Qataris have a say in it? Is it then binding on Qataris?
I'm not asking these questions to come across as some sort of stubborn contrarion. I'm actually one of the few people that has bothered to read the declaration of human rights and broadly agree with its principles. My point is you are appealing to one secular Liberal idea to prove another secular Liberal idea, and the answer you'll get is what I stated above. Also many of the 30 points in the human rights declaration have been repeatedly ignored by powerful Western nations so why should they appeal to the ordinary Qatari?
And I think people have every right to condemn things they disagree with, that's not what I'm arguing. But you can condemn an idea/person but still engage them in civil discussion in order to get your point across.
Apologies if I'm coming across as unnecessarily argumentative. That's not my intention, especially with a poster I generally find myself agreeing with. I'm just giving a viewpoint that is probably not widely held but I have experienced due to my unique position of having lived in the East and the West. I mean in my very family, I have ultra orthodox Salafist Muslims as well as very secular liberals - as you can imagine, family gatherings are a treat!
Really appreciate your valuable contribution to the discussion. I share your scepticism about the effectiveness of boycotts. It’s rash and ineffective (speaking as someone who boycotted Israel as a teenager).
As
And the root cause of that is an extremely conservative religious dogma. I can’t say how this manifests in Qatar specifically but in much of the Islamic world (and the western world historically) political power and religious power are intertwined; religion is a convenient tool for social control.
The end result is always the same with social conservatives - in groups that the law protects but does not bind and out groups that the law binds but does not protect.
I understand what you're saying and agree with many of your points, especially with regards to the removal of oppression. The problem as I partly stated in my previous post is first, convincingly arguing for an objective moral standard and then secondly, demonstrating that failure to uphold that moral standard is oppressive. Does the will of the people count when it comes to the morals/laws they want for their own nation? If not, how illiberal are you prepared to get to enforce your Liberal values on people who don't want them?
There's no easy answer outside of ones own echo chamber. I genuinely believe no Qatari believes their promotion of traditional family values and demotion of anything that contradicts that including gay marriage is oppressive. When these conversations happen over there, people point to the growing disintegration of tradition families in certain countries in the West as further evidence of why enforcing their own societal code is not only necessary, but something that is fundamentally holding their whole society together.
To us in the West, it may not make sense at all. We celebrate individualism here. But in the East, family ties trump individualism all day and twice on a Sunday. They view society as starting at the family level. The families form a small community. The communities form a town. And the towns form the nation. An individuals desires are secondary to that of the family/society.
Fans face splashing out £9k PER NIGHT to stay in Qatar for World Cup
ENGLAND fans will be forced to break the bank to follow the Three Lions at the World Cup in mega-wealthy Qatar. Our investigation there shows supporters could end up splashing out more than £9,000 …
www.thesun.co.uk
BIG DOUGH IN DOHA
England fans will be forced to pay £9k PER NIGHT to stay in Qatar for World Cup
- 21:26, 2 Apr 2022
- Updated: 22:14, 2 Apr 2022
Our investigation there shows supporters will have to splash out more than £9,000 per night on a hotel.
And Qatar sells the most expensive beer in the world, with a pint of Heineken at £11.50. Wine is around £11 a glass.
Fans will also have to fork out on direct return flights costing £1,063 and £724 for match tickets.
Also, anyone caught boozing in public in the strict Middle East state faces six months’ jail.
And beer will only be available in special zones around stadiums and some venues elsewhere in the capital Doha. Fans will have to book hotel rooms to guarantee late-night pints.
Eight stadiums costing £5.2billion have been built and another £150billion has been spent on transport and general infrastructure for the first World Cup to be held in the Middle East.
But Dubai is only about the size of Yorkshire and may not be big enough to accommodate the 1.5million fans expected to flood in.
Most hotels are already sold out and prices for the few rooms still available for the tournament starting on November 21, such as at the Four Seasons in Doha, are soaring.
For those lucky enough to be there to follow manager Gareth Southgate’s Three Lions, the only place to buy “take home” booze is The Qatar Distribution Company — and customers need a special permit proving they are residents.
We visited it and found that a black market trade was operating outside its front gates, with crates of beer being passed from one car boot to another — risking a jail sentence of at least six months.
Usually booze is only available in hotels but fans travelling to Qatar will at least be able to enjoy a pre-match pint after it was announced alcohol will be served in kiosks outside stadiums for ticket-holders and at other venues including Beach Clubs in Doha.
Qatar tourism chief Berthold Trenkel outlined the special measures that will be put in place during the tournament to let thirsty fans get a drink in the desert heat.
But he warned: “It will be different inside the actual stadiums. There will only be zero alcohol beer actually inside.”
The Beach Clubs are a late addition and a further sign of the country’s willingness to bend its normal rules and regulations for the duration of the tournament.
But expats warned fans could still be facing a “culture shock”.
Angela Norton and husband Chris, both 60, emigrated from Chester seven years ago so she could take a hospital job and he could enjoy his retirement.
She said: “There are lots of rules they won’t be aware of like the need for women to cover up in malls.
“If you wear shorts or a little dress you will get told off and the other women will spit at you.
“The cost of alcohol is so high that most expats only drink at happy hour between 5pm and 8pm where a pint of beer is still nearly £8.
“Drinking in public is banned and if you try, the police will turn up and take you to jail. There are CCTV cameras everywhere.”
Buying alcohol in corner shops, supermarkets and most restaurants is impossible. And the hotel booze prices are eye-watering.
Poor immigrant workers, and the 350,000 native Qataris forbidden from drinking under strict Islamic laws, can only consume the 0 per cent beer — or resort to illegal bootleg liquor.
It is often sold in industrial zones for £3 a litre but can contain butanol and pentanol, two industrial alcohols known to cause brain and eye damage.
But worker Faisal Ansari, 22, originally from Nepal, said: “The work is good. I have been here for two years and I will be supporting Qatar during the World Cup.”
The England squad, given an easy-looking draw on Friday for the group stage, are due to stay at Qatar’s alcohol-free Souq Al Wakra hotel — at the end of a maze of winding, narrow roads, next to a huge mosque.
They will train at a nearby stadium but there are concerns the lack of activities at the hotel, which does not even boast a swimming pool, will leave the players feeling restless and bored.
I don’t think Wales are better than the US.
Absolute joke of a World Cup. How anyone can be excited by this is beyond me.Fans face splashing out £9k PER NIGHT to stay in Qatar for World Cup
ENGLAND fans will be forced to break the bank to follow the Three Lions at the World Cup in mega-wealthy Qatar. Our investigation there shows supporters could end up splashing out more than £9,000 …
BIG DOUGH IN DOHA
England fans will be forced to pay £9k PER NIGHT to stay in Qatar for World Cup
ENGLAND fans will be forced to break the bank to follow the Three Lions at the World Cup in mega-wealthy Qatar.
- Graeme Culliford
- Martin Lipton
- 21:26, 2 Apr 2022
- Updated: 22:14, 2 Apr 2022
Our investigation there shows supporters will have to splash out more than £9,000 per night on a hotel.
And Qatar sells the most expensive beer in the world, with a pint of Heineken at £11.50. Wine is around £11 a glass.
Fans will also have to fork out on direct return flights costing £1,063 and £724 for match tickets.
Also, anyone caught boozing in public in the strict Middle East state faces six months’ jail.
And beer will only be available in special zones around stadiums and some venues elsewhere in the capital Doha. Fans will have to book hotel rooms to guarantee late-night pints.
Eight stadiums costing £5.2billion have been built and another £150billion has been spent on transport and general infrastructure for the first World Cup to be held in the Middle East.
But Dubai is only about the size of Yorkshire and may not be big enough to accommodate the 1.5million fans expected to flood in.
Most hotels are already sold out and prices for the few rooms still available for the tournament starting on November 21, such as at the Four Seasons in Doha, are soaring.
For those lucky enough to be there to follow manager Gareth Southgate’s Three Lions, the only place to buy “take home” booze is The Qatar Distribution Company — and customers need a special permit proving they are residents.
We visited it and found that a black market trade was operating outside its front gates, with crates of beer being passed from one car boot to another — risking a jail sentence of at least six months.
Usually booze is only available in hotels but fans travelling to Qatar will at least be able to enjoy a pre-match pint after it was announced alcohol will be served in kiosks outside stadiums for ticket-holders and at other venues including Beach Clubs in Doha.
Qatar tourism chief Berthold Trenkel outlined the special measures that will be put in place during the tournament to let thirsty fans get a drink in the desert heat.
But he warned: “It will be different inside the actual stadiums. There will only be zero alcohol beer actually inside.”
The Beach Clubs are a late addition and a further sign of the country’s willingness to bend its normal rules and regulations for the duration of the tournament.
But expats warned fans could still be facing a “culture shock”.
Angela Norton and husband Chris, both 60, emigrated from Chester seven years ago so she could take a hospital job and he could enjoy his retirement.
She said: “There are lots of rules they won’t be aware of like the need for women to cover up in malls.
“If you wear shorts or a little dress you will get told off and the other women will spit at you.
“The cost of alcohol is so high that most expats only drink at happy hour between 5pm and 8pm where a pint of beer is still nearly £8.
“Drinking in public is banned and if you try, the police will turn up and take you to jail. There are CCTV cameras everywhere.”
Buying alcohol in corner shops, supermarkets and most restaurants is impossible. And the hotel booze prices are eye-watering.
Poor immigrant workers, and the 350,000 native Qataris forbidden from drinking under strict Islamic laws, can only consume the 0 per cent beer — or resort to illegal bootleg liquor.
It is often sold in industrial zones for £3 a litre but can contain butanol and pentanol, two industrial alcohols known to cause brain and eye damage.
But worker Faisal Ansari, 22, originally from Nepal, said: “The work is good. I have been here for two years and I will be supporting Qatar during the World Cup.”
The England squad, given an easy-looking draw on Friday for the group stage, are due to stay at Qatar’s alcohol-free Souq Al Wakra hotel — at the end of a maze of winding, narrow roads, next to a huge mosque.
They will train at a nearby stadium but there are concerns the lack of activities at the hotel, which does not even boast a swimming pool, will leave the players feeling restless and bored.
Proof it takes all sorts of people to make up the world I guess.
What I meant is that they are probably better than both Scotland and Ukraine. Neither of them have a player like Bale that can be the difference in a close game.
The 25th is the day after Thanksgiving (Black Friday) so just about everyone that doesn’t work retail has the day off. It should translate to higher tv ratings in the US.
I remember reading about that in the papers . It was touch and go if they would go ahead because of your decision .
Fans face splashing out £9k PER NIGHT to stay in Qatar for World Cup
ENGLAND fans will be forced to break the bank to follow the Three Lions at the World Cup in mega-wealthy Qatar. Our investigation there shows supporters could end up splashing out more than £9,000 …
BIG DOUGH IN DOHA
England fans will be forced to pay £9k PER NIGHT to stay in Qatar for World Cup
ENGLAND fans will be forced to break the bank to follow the Three Lions at the World Cup in mega-wealthy Qatar.
- Graeme Culliford
- Martin Lipton
- 21:26, 2 Apr 2022
- Updated: 22:14, 2 Apr 2022
Our investigation there shows supporters will have to splash out more than £9,000 per night on a hotel.
And Qatar sells the most expensive beer in the world, with a pint of Heineken at £11.50. Wine is around £11 a glass.
Fans will also have to fork out on direct return flights costing £1,063 and £724 for match tickets.
Also, anyone caught boozing in public in the strict Middle East state faces six months’ jail.
And beer will only be available in special zones around stadiums and some venues elsewhere in the capital Doha. Fans will have to book hotel rooms to guarantee late-night pints.
Eight stadiums costing £5.2billion have been built and another £150billion has been spent on transport and general infrastructure for the first World Cup to be held in the Middle East.
But Dubai is only about the size of Yorkshire and may not be big enough to accommodate the 1.5million fans expected to flood in.
Most hotels are already sold out and prices for the few rooms still available for the tournament starting on November 21, such as at the Four Seasons in Doha, are soaring.
For those lucky enough to be there to follow manager Gareth Southgate’s Three Lions, the only place to buy “take home” booze is The Qatar Distribution Company — and customers need a special permit proving they are residents.
We visited it and found that a black market trade was operating outside its front gates, with crates of beer being passed from one car boot to another — risking a jail sentence of at least six months.
Usually booze is only available in hotels but fans travelling to Qatar will at least be able to enjoy a pre-match pint after it was announced alcohol will be served in kiosks outside stadiums for ticket-holders and at other venues including Beach Clubs in Doha.
Qatar tourism chief Berthold Trenkel outlined the special measures that will be put in place during the tournament to let thirsty fans get a drink in the desert heat.
But he warned: “It will be different inside the actual stadiums. There will only be zero alcohol beer actually inside.”
The Beach Clubs are a late addition and a further sign of the country’s willingness to bend its normal rules and regulations for the duration of the tournament.
But expats warned fans could still be facing a “culture shock”.
Angela Norton and husband Chris, both 60, emigrated from Chester seven years ago so she could take a hospital job and he could enjoy his retirement.
She said: “There are lots of rules they won’t be aware of like the need for women to cover up in malls.
“If you wear shorts or a little dress you will get told off and the other women will spit at you.
“The cost of alcohol is so high that most expats only drink at happy hour between 5pm and 8pm where a pint of beer is still nearly £8.
“Drinking in public is banned and if you try, the police will turn up and take you to jail. There are CCTV cameras everywhere.”
Buying alcohol in corner shops, supermarkets and most restaurants is impossible. And the hotel booze prices are eye-watering.
Poor immigrant workers, and the 350,000 native Qataris forbidden from drinking under strict Islamic laws, can only consume the 0 per cent beer — or resort to illegal bootleg liquor.
It is often sold in industrial zones for £3 a litre but can contain butanol and pentanol, two industrial alcohols known to cause brain and eye damage.
But worker Faisal Ansari, 22, originally from Nepal, said: “The work is good. I have been here for two years and I will be supporting Qatar during the World Cup.”
The England squad, given an easy-looking draw on Friday for the group stage, are due to stay at Qatar’s alcohol-free Souq Al Wakra hotel — at the end of a maze of winding, narrow roads, next to a huge mosque.
They will train at a nearby stadium but there are concerns the lack of activities at the hotel, which does not even boast a swimming pool, will leave the players feeling restless and bored.
= Corporate cunt-fest > Shit crowds > crap atmosphere....
Fuck you, FIFA.
Italy won’t the there so it’s not the World Cup.
