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Supporters The Y Word

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Distaste for scouse said:
It's tricky isn't it, I think if you wore a t-shirt with the Hindu symbol in your link most people would immediately assume you were right wing. There is room for wider education across the spectrum when it comes to iconography.
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See if a hindu person wears the hindu symbol, they could then explain the context. Us non-hindus plastering their symbol on our clothes and whatnot would be a terrible thing to do even if we are doing it as a solidarity with the hindus.

The question if its offensive or not should be limited to all jewish people (especially all jewish football fans) not just spurs supporting jewish people.
 
KaneIsAble said:
"it can't be both in my mind". I need a better justification for this kind of attitude than you, or anyone else has offered. I can understand how this line of thinking came about with the n-word, but it doesn't apply to every slur. This is too rigid, and intellectually lazy. Seeking to impose it on others can be a kind of cultural imperialism like when Americans try to foist "latinx" on unwilling spanish speakers.

This strident, absolutist attitude is why I, as an ex-muslim, was harrassed off this site for calling Islam evil. People with a simplistic world view can't comprehend that Tommy Robinson can say something like that with racist intentions, and I can say it with the intention of protecting liberal values. I can never criticise Islam IRL because of this kind of thinking. It's practically the same with the yid army chants.

As for your non-spurs Jewish example, you can read through my posts on this thread, did you even read the post you replied to? I've already explained it. The spurs fan who go to games and chant this are not responsible for making their culture fit into an outsider's understanding of racism. See the example of Adele, and South Africa I mentioned in a previous post.

Your hypothetical jewish person can seek an explanation, and we'd be obliged to give it to them. If they refuse to believe us, there's nothing we can do. Presumably, they had no idea about a group of jews and non-jews signing about yid army for the better part of 60 years, they don't get to just swoop in and shut everything down.

I don't care about optics, you shouldn't either. This constant unthinking concession to optics has ruined public discourse over the last few decades.
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Blimey never thought I'd be cast in with the woke crowd. if you check my post history you will see I am a firm believer in free speech and very much anti-woke. When it comes to comedians being able to tell a joke, the absurdity of gender pronouns, and people being cancelled for the slightest thing I am totally with you 10000%

I don't think this issue falls into that space though.

I just think in this case the word has served its purpose and we should move on.

But as I say I can see both sides of this debate, eventually I feel they will force us to stop using it, I'd rather people come to an agreement to not use it before it comes to that inevitability.

Maybe on could put something on our crest or on the placards around our stadium that says "proud of our Jewish heritage" or something like that instead of using a word that is clearly offensive to some people. And it doesn't belong to Spurs.
 
iz futbal said:
See if a hindu person wears the hindu symbol, they could then explain the context. Us non-hindus plastering their symbol on our clothes and whatnot would be a terrible thing to do even if we are doing it as a solidarity with the hindus.

The question if its offensive or not should be limited to all jewish people (especially all jewish football fans) not just spurs supporting jewish people.
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exactly, I feel like a lot of people only look at this through a Spurs lens and assume this is non offensive to other Jewish people who have no affiliation to Spurs and in many case no interest in football.
 
Distaste for scouse said:
I just think in this case the word has served its purpose and we should move on.
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I think it was going in that direction, but instead of allowing the word to slowly lose that association, Baddiel and Levy have brought all the racial elements back into focus.

I wouldn't have minded it fading away over time, as a new generation adopted a new nickname for the club. Maybe in 50 years time north London would be very Polish and we'd be called the "Kurwa crew", but now I feel its important to keep the heritage alive.
 
KaneIsAble said:
I think it was going in that direction, but instead of allowing the word to slowly lose that association, Baddiel and Levy The Club have brought all the racial elements back into focus.

I wouldn't have minded it fading away over time, as a new generation adopted a new nickname for the club. Maybe in 50 years time north London would be very Polish and we'd be called the "Kurwa crew", but now I feel its important to keep the heritage alive.
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The club really shouldn't be blamed for this..... We have done nothing to stir up the hornet's nest..... As a club we're just left stuck in the middle trying to do the right thing by both our fans (Jewish & non-jewish alike) AND the broader Jewish community (many of which will have no affinity with the game or it's culture).

It's the Baddiel's of this world who are merely trying to stick the boot into Spurs that need to go fuck themselves in this scenario.
 
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iz futbal said:
See if a hindu person wears the hindu symbol, they could then explain the context. Us non-hindus plastering their symbol on our clothes and whatnot would be a terrible thing to do even if we are doing it as a solidarity with the hindus.

The question if its offensive or not should be limited to all jewish people (especially all jewish football fans) not just spurs supporting jewish people.
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It's not that simple. If the solidarity came from real community interaction, and the use of the symbols emerged hand in hand with the local Hindu community, I don't see why the objections of the worldwide Hindu community must always override that. Are all Hindus supposed to engage with the world in the same way? I'm sure the way Hindus in Bali practice might offend some snooty Bhramin in Varanasi.

Also, I'm guessing you don't know much about Hinduism or India. Famous Muslim sufi singers sing songs written by Hindus. Sikhs get emotional about Islamic devotional songs. Muslim women in Bangladesh (until very recently unfortunately) used to wear forehead dots and other art. My own sister growing up wore stuff like this:

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If you saw my older relatives' wedding photos you'd likely mistake it as a Hindu wedding.
fee8d8ca12e6a9ef7079888ccb01c0d1.jpg

It was similar to this, but a lot less elaborate (just white dots wrapping round the top of the eyebrows to the cheeks).

There was no question of them not being Muslim, but aesthetically even Hindus in parts of India would surely mistake it for Hindu wedding makeup. Would uphold the objections of some Hindu in Delhi to try and stop this?

The idiosyncratic mixed aesthetics of Bangladesh is being split into distinct Muslim and Hindu ones now because of religious zealots. This is sort of what the yid army debate and modern exclusionary attitude to race leads to.
 
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Distaste for scouse said:
Because in the case of Y army most people singing it on a match day aren't Jewish.

I also think that black people that use that term about themselves isn't empowering its self derogatory but that's an entirely different debate.
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The most obvious difference is that the words
Nigger and Paki
were NEVER used as complimentary terms amongst other Pakistanis or Black communities...

YID
was amongst
Jews!

The 'P' & 'N' words have been lumped in with the 'Y' word assuming that all were originally derogatory.... They weren't!

YID
was a always a term of endearment... a compliment, until it was stolen.
Paki and Nigger
were basterdised versions of words, stolen by Colonialists or White Supremisists, only INTENDED to cause offence.

An analogy:
Your cherished, beloved 'Y' Reg. car is stolen...
Yet it is recovered, HOWEVER... in the time it was stolen, it has been driven badly and damaged a bit...

You are now not allowed YOUR OWN CAR back, because someone else stole it, and drove it badly.

Remember, it's YOUR CAR... but you can't have it back, 'cos of some criminal....

That's YID for Jews!

Good Shabbos!
 
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Shadydan said:
Would you care to put asterix in these derogatory names please, I understand you're trying to make a point but I really don't want to be reading those words or seeing them so openly used, thanks.
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I'm genuinely sorry.
I'll 'spolier' alert them asap... So as not to offend!

....but I have to say, that's part of the problem...

You know those words exist... Blocking them out doesn't stop their existence!

Dealing with the issue itself head on is the only way we'll deal with it properly...

Not hiding, deleting, editing, amending or masking them.
 
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PAUL WHITEHOUSE shouted: 'Yid Army' as he collected his Writers' Guild award. Tottenham fans like him have been warned not to use the offensive term at White Hart Lane under the threat of criminal charges being bought for public order offences. Whitehouse followed it up by saying: "behave yourself! You'll have David Baddiel on you!
 
1882 said:
The most obvious difference is that the words
N***** and P***/spoiler] were NEVER used as complimentary terms amongst other Pakistanis or Black communities...

YID
was amongst
Jews!

The 'P' & 'N' words have been lumped in with the 'Y' word assuming that all were originally derogatory.... They weren't!

YID
was a always a term of endearment... a compliment, until it was stolen.
Paki and Nigger
were basterdised versions of words, stolen by Colonialists or White Supremisists, only INTENDED to cause offence.

An analogy:
Your cherished, beloved 'Y' Reg. car is stolen...
Yet it is recovered, HOWEVER... in the time it was stolen, it has been driven badly and damaged a bit...

You are now not allowed YOUR OWN CAR back, because someone else stole it, and drove it badly.

Remember, it's YOUR CAR... but you can't have it back, 'cos of some criminal....

That's YID for Jews!

Good Shabbos!
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The word hasn’t been in polite use in English for at least a hundred years — if it was ever in polite use in English (as opposed to Yiddish).

The derogatory term for Asian (‘G**k) is derived entirely from the Korean word for country (국) which is still, obviously, in every day use. It doesn’t mean it’s ever been polite in English.

There are plenty of words that have fallen out of polite use — retarded and coloured, relatively recently , for example —and are now regarded as derogatory.

The explanation that they were polite once upon a time or in a different language or culture is hardly an excuse to use them.
 
TheGhost said:
The word hasn’t been in polite use in English for at least a hundred years — if it was ever in polite use in English (as opposed to Yiddish).

The derogatory term for Asian (‘G**k) is derived entirely from the Korean word for country (국) which is still, obviously, in every day use. It doesn’t mean it’s ever been polite in English.

There are plenty of words that have fallen out of polite use — retarded and coloured, relatively recently , for example —and are now regarded as derogatory.

The explanation that they were polite once upon a time or in a different language or culture is hardly an excuse to use them.
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Unless 1972 was 100 years ago, I beg to differ.... I've heard it used as a polite, complimentary term in my lifetime, But there you go, what do I know?

But my question is, if Yid (sorry,'Y' word) is SOOOO offensive, what do you propose we do about that pesky, offensive language YIDDISH??

That still exists, and is allowed, right?
Or does Yiddish need to be done away with as well???

Genuine question! 'Cos I really don't know the answer!
 
Shadydan said:
I don't understand why you would do this?
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I've explained my reasoning at length. Context matters. Just typing Yid or Paki is meaningless. The time/place/intent gives it meaning.

It's bullshit censorship and lack of critical thinking in the name of racial sensitivity.

I've been called a paki a million times, putting little spoiler tags isn't being considerate or saving me any grief. "go back to your own country p*aki" is worse than "paki paki paki" without any context.
 
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